By Erica C. Barnett
Last week, after asking negotiating a minimum $741,000 settlement package with former police chief Shon Barnes, Mayor Katie Wilson announced she would be appointing one of Barnes’ two deputy chiefs, Andre Sayles, as interim police chief while the city begins a formal search and hiring process for the next permanent chief.
Barnes recruied Sayles last year from his job as police chief in Beloit, WI, about an hour south of Madison, where Barnes was previously chief. Like Barnes, Sayles has a family home in Illinois, a few miles outside Beloit (Barnes’ family home is in Chicago). where his wife continues to live; his kids also live in the area. His Washington state home, which he describes as his primary residence, is in east King County.
PubliCola sat down with Sayles at SPD headquarters last Friday for a conversation about the future of SPD, how his style and priorities differ from Barnes’, the culture at SPD, and more. I’ve edited our conversation for length and clarity.
Erica C, Barnett (PubliCola): Barnes recruited you to come to Seattle. You’ve mentioned that you’re personal friends. I’m curious why you decided to say yes to the interim chief job, given the circumstances of his departure and the fact that you’re so closely linked with him.
Andre Sayles: I never knew [Barnes] before January 2021. He came to my swearing-in April 2021 when I became police chief [in Beloit], and we kept in contact with each other professionally and developed a friendship personally after that. So when he presented [the Seattle deputy chief position] to me, I said, you know, I know I can be successful here. I can bring my personal touch to it, being a human first, and not being a chief or anything like that, and treating people with dignity and respect, not just inside the police department, but in the community as well. So I said, hey, let’s take this challenge because, you know, challenges help you grow.
PubliCola: What have you learned so far about the differences between policing in a small town like Beloit and a larger city like Seattle?
Sayles: I think sometimes it gets lost in the wording of ‘small’ that Beloit is a very diverse community. We dealt with a lot. There was a time where we were averaging anywhere between 10 and 12 homicides a year, for a city that’s anywhere between 38 and 40,000 people. That’s a lot of work for a quote-unquote small town. I truly believe policing is transferable. My skills and ability can go anywhere in this nation. As a patrol officer, I led homicide investigations. I led the drug and gang unit. It’s [a matter of] scaling your knowledge and skills to where you’re at.
PubliCola: Do you think that SPD has been doing that? Chief Barnes was doing a lot of community meetings, but they weren’t very well attended by actual community members. Will you change anything about how SPD does community outreach?
Sayles: Well, I think we have to remember if there’s 25 people in that meeting, sometimes people talk to 10 other people. So we are reaching people. But it’s a matter of getting more seats filled, more people to come to those meetings. And I think when we leave, we should provide a challenge to our community members: Hey, next time we have this meeting, bring two people with you. Because we want to hear from everyone that’s in this specific community. And let’s continue to do it, because I don’t want it to be a situation where we don’t show up.
But I would be happy if we showed up to a place and there was one person there, because that’s one person that’s dedicated to what we want to do for that community. Then that person is going to say, ‘Hey, they showed up five times. They’re committed to community policing.’
PubliCola: The city’s annual budget discussions are coming up, and there’s been a debate over whether SPD will slow down police hiring to stay within its budget. Can you talk about that possibility?
Sayles: I don’t know if we’re going to slow down, but we’re going to look at some steps to make sure that we’re able to get officers on the street in a timely manner. We may hire the same amount of people, but we may say, ‘All right, let’s take a two-three week break from hiring.’ So we can get people through the field training program, get them through [Basic Law Enforcement Academy], get them through post-BLEA, and then say, ‘All right, now let’s hire a certain amount of people.’ So it’s going to be a collective effort with our recruitment and retention team, and also the mayor’s office, to say, What does that look like? Let’s come up with a plan to say we’re going to hire X amount of officers during [each] quarter. That’s going to help the patrol staffing numbers and give that work-life balance back to our patrol officers to make sure that they can utilize their time away and be with their families.
PubliCola: To talk about the money, though, SPD will likely be over budget this year because you’re hiring more people than anticipated. There’s a huge budget deficit. Mayor Wilson has asked every department, including yours, to come up with very significant potential cuts. Is SPD going to cut its budget or resist taking any cuts?
Sayles: I think our biggest thing right now is to leave the people out of what we may put forward on the budget, because we want people, There’s some things that we may look at. Like—do we need to buy new chairs every year, or can we come up with a rotation for equipment for offices and things that nature, being very cognizant of the budget and being good stewards of the budget, and creating a roadmap and a plan within SPD, presenting it to the mayor’s office, presenting it to council members, and saying ‘This is what we’re committed to do.’ I think that’s what we’re going to do. We’ve been working diligently on that as an executive command staff team. I would like to bring in our captains and say, ‘What do you see in your precincts? What do you see in your unit?’ and have a group session on these things.
PubliCola: I saw that CARE Department Chief Amy Barden posted a photo of the two of you on Instagram this morning. In the past, she’s expressed some frustration about CARE not being authorized to respond to the kind of calls they were set up to respond to. Have you sat down with her and talked about her concerns? And will we see any changes with the relationship between SPD and CARE going forward?
Sayles: I met with Amy twice over the seven days I’ve been interim chief. I met Amy at a community meeting last year, where there was a situation that required CARE, and we co-responded to that situation together.
PubliCola: What was the situation?
Sayles: Then-mayor Bruce Harrell was at a Safeway talking [at an event promoting a food access initiative], and a gentleman was yelling and screaming. And we went over and we calmed down that situation together. So it’s going to be a new approach, because my ideas are similar to Chief Barnes, but they’re somewhat different, and my relationship with Amy is going to be different than Chief Barnes because I’m a different person. I’m a person that that is all about collaboration. Not saying that Chief Barnes was not, but I’m just talking about me specifically.
We’ve had a good conversation over the last week about some of the things that we want to do. So it’s bringing in SPD, bringing CARE to the table, bringing in Fire, bringing in the mayor’s office. And prior to us leaving the room, everybody agreeing that this is what we’re going to do, bringing in [the Seattle Police Officers Guild] and saying, ‘Hey, this is what we’re looking at,’ and putting a lock on that door before we leave, and everybody can walk out saying, ‘I like the collective idea that we came up with together.’
PubliCola: I want to ask a question about the Bite of Seattle shooting. I understand that you’re not going to be able to provide specific information, but there’s been a feeling of lost trust because there’s just still no new information coming out about what happened. What can you tell me about what’s going on with the investigation and why we don’t know anything yet?
Sayles: It’s one of those roadblocks in policing that some day, hopefully, we can get past in regards to the information that we can provide. I think the biggest thing is when we provide information, sometimes it gives that person that we may be looking for the idea and the advance knowledge of, ‘Oh, they know who I am.’ And we unfortunately sometimes have to keep that close to the vest because we have to proceed in our investigation with caution, and say, ‘We have this information. We can’t fully give it out to the community yet because, unfortunately, sometimes people help these suspects in these situations. I had a great talk with our investigators yesterday. Hopefully, in the coming days and coming weeks, there’s some things that’s going to happen that we will be able to talk about.
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PubliCola: I want to talk a little bit about the culture at SPD, which has been criticized as misogynist and anti-LGBTQ. Under former chief Barnes, there were a lot of problematic incidents and missed opportunities, including the way SPD handled the [anti-trans] Mayday USA rally last year. Do you think there’s room for improvement in SPD’s relationship with LGBTQ+ residents, and how will your approach differ from Barnes’?
Sayles: People have identified that I came from outside, but I was actually a part of [SPD’s] LGBTQ+ Advisory Board until taking the interim position. I hadn’t seen anything in my 13, 14 months that would lead me to believe that’s what occurred. But I can’t be ignorant to what has been put out there and what has been said. So I want to strengthen that relationship. I think we’re making inroads to strengthen that relationship.
I know in July we had a meeting where there was a person that was trying to disrupt the meeting, and everyone in that group, from what I heard, actually was like, ‘Hey, the police are here. They’ve been here. They’ve been supportive of what we’re trying to do. Like, you can’t come in here and try to disrupt this meeting. And we’re developing a great relationship with the police department.’ I think it’s all about relationships and understanding that the things happened in the past, we have to be aware of it, but we also need to move past it and work on strengthening that relationship beyond some of the missteps that happened in the past.
PubliCola: I’ve heard some critics and commentators say that the next permanent police chief needs be someone with roots in this community who rose up through the ranks at SPD, as opposed to someone who comes from elsewhere, like yourself. What do you think of that critique?
Sayles: I hope that we get a leader that wants to be involved in the community, someone that’s going to lead this department for our people inside this police department and outside this police department, not leading because you want a certain title. I think that’s the biggest thing, and that’s what it should be—a person that’s going to look at what SPD stands for: Service, pride, and dedication. If it’s a person from the inside, by all means, let’s go forward and be great. If it’s a person from outside, let’s forward, let’s go forward and be great.
PubliCola: Are you applying?
Sayles: I have not had an opportunity to take a second to even think about that. It’s been a long week, and as things start to slow down for me a little bit. I think I’ll take a glance at it. But once again, I’m more focused on the people inside this police department—how can I help them?—and then also on our community members. I’m a person that’s selfless. I don’t really talk about myself and what I’ve done, and here’s this accolade or that accolade. I’m all about the people, and I’m all about a we mentality instead of a e mentality. So, if I decide to put in for it, I’ll decide to put in for it. But I haven’t thought about that because I’m focused on what we need to accomplish now.
PubliCola: Like Barnes, you still have a home in Illinois. What is your long-term plan, as far as moving to this area permanently versus keeping a home out of state?
Sayles: My home is in the Issaquah area. My secondary residence that I worked hard for is in Illinois. I asked the mayor when we talked, I said, ‘I just want to know that I have a place here in Seattle. Whenever there’s a permanent decision made, I would like to remain here.’ I came here because I believe my higher power put me here for a reason, and that is to be a leader within whatever role I have here at SPD.
I think I have shown that I’ve been very involved with our rank and file. I’ve been involved in our professional staff, and I’m getting myself out there in the community more than I have over the last year. I’ve been involved in the community, but now I want to be more involved in the community. And this is a place that I chose to come to. I uprooted myself to come out here because I believed in what the mission and vision was of Seattle before Chief Barnes, during Chief Barnes, and where we’re going to go in the future.