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Pioneer Square May Not Get Streetcar

City   September 21, 2011 at 12:34 pm Erica C. Barnett

THIS POST HAS BEEN UPDATED WITH COMMENTS FROM SOUND TRANSIT SPOKESMAN GEOFF PATRICK.

Residents in Pioneer Square are angry that the city may no longer be able to extend the First Hill streetcar into their neighborhood “as planned.” (The city agreed last year to consider extending the streetcar from the Fifth and Jackson transit tunnel station along a loop from that station to Second and Main and back.)

A “Call to Action” on the New Pioneer Square Blog, for example, includes a long list of benefits to the neighborhood and urges residents to write their city council members and Mayor Mike McGinn telling them “how important the streetcar is to this neighborhood, and that we’re tired of the city breaking its promises.”

The only thing is, the city never “promised” Pioneer Square it would build the streetcar to their neighborhood. In fact, according to city staff, the city only told the neighborhood it would try to extend the streetcar to the neighborhood—if, and only if, it could meet its contractual obligation to Sound Transit to keep the streetcar on ten-minute headways (the period riders must wait between trains) and to keep costs below the $123 million Sound Transit agreed to provide under an interlocal agreement with the city (which will actually build the streetcar).

According to the current design (which, at 90 percent completion, is pretty solid), the streetcar could only achieve 11 1/2 minute headways for the amount Sound Transit will pay (which, at 90 percent cost estimation, is also pretty solid). Spending more, or going with longer than 10-minute headways, would violate the contract.

Jen Kelly, an organizer with the Pioneer Square Residential Council, says Sound Transit should be “more flexible” with its headway requirements and improve headways once more money is available in the future. “We feel like it’s just another thing that is negative for the neighborhood, particularly with all of the impacts that we’re going to get hit with during viaduct construction,” Kelly says. “Budget is budget, but it’s frustrating to be on our side of the problem.”

Sound Transit spokesman Geoff Patrick says both the city and the transit agency agree that once headways increase beyond 10 minutes, “You start to get outside what you would expect for an urban streetcar and you set people up for frustration. As for spending more money to extend the streetcar, he says, “In the context of our own budget in the recession, including a 25 percent blow to Sound Transit II finances overall … there’s not a lot of financial flexibility to increase scope.”

However, the city hasn’t entirely scuttled plans to extend the streetcar to Pioneer Square. If voters pass the $60 car-tab fee in November, some of that funding—a total of about $20 million a year—could go to pay for the streetcar extension. Although the city has not yet hammered out what specific projects the fee would fund, it has agreed to spend  $10 million (49 percent) for transit-related improvements.

The city will know for sure what the streetcar will cost, and what kind of headways it can provide, in mid-October.


  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    The First Hill Streetcar is vital to Pioneer Square’s future plans, we ought to be able to fund it alongside other necessary forward-looking plans. Another plus in the “Yes” column for Prop 1!

  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    The First Hill Streetcar is vital to Pioneer Square’s future plans, we ought to be able to fund it alongside other necessary forward-looking plans. Another plus in the “Yes” column for Prop 1!

  • YoMama

    Prop 1: The tax to rob the poor to give money to the spandex-clad, bearded white guy biking community…

  • YoMama

    Prop 1: The tax to rob the poor to give money to the spandex-clad, bearded white guy biking community…

  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    This is not a class war — it’s math.

  • Mr. X

    “could go to pay for” = empty promise = blank check = vote NO.

  • beezer

    Wouldn’t an Aloha extension also affect headways?  Is the city prioritizing Aloha over Pioneer Square?

  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    Meet your new best friend, John Boehner: http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/07/25/boehners-response-the-president-wants-a-blank-check/

    CJR on “blank check” rhetoric: http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/passing_bad_checks.php?page=all

  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    We should fund projects in a way that keeps us from having this “who wants it more” fight.

  • Hipster Douchebag

    Or, you know, the tax to better serve people who can’t afford the $8,500 the AAA estimates owning and operating a car costs annually

  • Anonymous

    Tell that to Tim Eyman and the people who vote for his ant-government, no taxes measures. Anyone who voted for any of these initiatives should be required to disclose that fact before speaking against Prop 1.

  • Godwin

    How much funding did road diets suck up which were supposed to go to other projects originally? I live on a street where a project keeps getting deferred for this other stuff no one voted for (Bridging the Gap was for road diets uber alles?). Anyone who thinks people will vote for another round of this in the current economy needs their head examined, or needs to knock off sniffing kool aid. 

  • http://www.twitter.com/joeszi Joe Szilagyi

    This is America, buddy. If people can’t afford their own way, that’s the American Way! Hike up them trousers and get a fourth job!

  • GHT

    Greg Nickels and other dangled the promise that the original George Benson streetcar would again run along the waterfront as part of the deal to relocate facilities for the new Olympic Sculpture Park.  Shortly after the park opened, more and more developments made it abundantly clear that these were empty promises in the hopes that the public would simply forget the original vintage cars.  Today, there is no one with a pulse who is championing returning these cars to service.

    They should be one of the centerpieces of the redeveloped waterfront, making the connection to Pioneer Square.  People loved these!  Bring back the George Benson line.

  • GHT

    Greg Nickels and other dangled the promise that the original George Benson streetcar would again run along the waterfront as part of the deal to relocate facilities for the new Olympic Sculpture Park.  Shortly after the park opened, more and more developments made it abundantly clear that these were empty promises in the hopes that the public would simply forget the original vintage cars.  Today, there is no one with a pulse who is championing returning these cars to service.

    They should be one of the centerpieces of the redeveloped waterfront, making the connection to Pioneer Square.  People loved these!  Bring back the George Benson line.

  • Anonymous

    “How much funding did road diets suck up?” None to very little. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003300511_roaddiet12m.html (“the road diet wouldn’t cost the city additional money because it planned to repave Stone Way anyway.”) Road diets are primarily paint.

  • Big Jim Slade

    Yeah, because the City has done SUCH a bang-up job of keeping its promises on transportation funding and not just dumping things into the general fund instead. Your incessant apologism is noted, though.

  • Big Jim Slade

    “Are you now or have you ever been a spandex-clad apologist for the bearded buffoons of City government?”

  • Big Jim Slade

    “Are you now or have you ever been a spandex-clad apologist for the bearded buffoons of City government?”

  • Anonymous

    I never wear spandex, I don’t have a beard, and I don’t apologize for others. So, I guess the answer is no.

  • Anonymous

    I never wear spandex, I don’t have a beard, and I don’t apologize for others. So, I guess the answer is no.

  • Mr. X

    Right, because NO liberal or progressive has EVER called an ill-defined and/or ill-advised bond issue or government program a blank check.

    What are you, like 12?

  • ivan

    You’d look so buff in spandex, though (ducking).

  • ivan

    And people’s time is valueless?

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr Baker

    So there is already a play for a moneygrab that depends on voters to trust the mayor and council to pick their favorites.
    That looks problematic.

  • Anonymous

    Produce a reference to a study (while wearing spandex) showing that Seattles’ road diets cause more than minimal delay of (non speeding) vehicles. So, http://publicola.com/2010/05/24/study-shows-stone-way-road-diet-improved-traffic-safety/

  • TMN

    I like the sentiment, but that number just can’t be right. You’d have to drive in excess of 20k miles a year to make those numbers work, which is the equivalent of driving an SOV 40 miles each way to your job every day (let’s be generous, 35 miles each way, and 10 miles worth of errands per day). That can’t be the average use profile of automobiles in this country. I’m guessing most people in Seattle would be hard pressed to drive half that mileage.

  • TMN

    I like the sentiment, but that number just can’t be right. You’d have to drive in excess of 20k miles a year to make those numbers work, which is the equivalent of driving an SOV 40 miles each way to your job every day (let’s be generous, 35 miles each way, and 10 miles worth of errands per day). That can’t be the average use profile of automobiles in this country. I’m guessing most people in Seattle would be hard pressed to drive half that mileage.

  • Grover

    Nobody rode the waterfront trolley except tourists.

    People love “Ride the Ducks!”  So what?

  • Grover

    Nobody rode the waterfront trolley except tourists.

    People love “Ride the Ducks!”  So what?

  • Guest

    People’s lives are worth more than a few seconds for a speeding driver.

  • mobility over art

    instead of adding expensive little streetcar segments here and there we ought to be paying for and planning the next largish train line through seattle.  we tend to fritter away $50 million here, $200 million there, DBT here, etc.  to have urban mobility you need a big old train, grade separated, that will move thousands pphpd linking to light rail line. we could add ten little streetcars here and there.  the people in those neighborhoods would love it!  but as they are no faster than a bus, it’s just a big waste of money and doesn’t achive more mobility.

    it’s fifty million a mile.  ten is 500 mllion, a big part of the cost of a real rapid mass transit line.  you can already take light rail cap hill to pioneer square, once cap hill station opens.  we ought to be thinking of actually moving 700,000 peole a day via a train system, not adding another 3000 people a day riding another 1.5 mile streetcar that goes no faster than a bus and is barely faster than walking.  it only makes sense as urban art that screams “we think we live in amsterdam, woo hoo!”

  • David Miller

    The math is wrong. The streetcar portion of Prop 1 is $18M for the ten years, not $20M a year. It only raises $20.4M a year total.

  • Anonymous

    Tourists only because the service sucked (infrequent) and it didn’t go far enough. It would have been the basis for a decent transit line if it could have been extended through Interbay to Ballard (bridge problem) and to the First Hill &/or CD at the other end. With far better than a 30 minute headway.

  • Natehc

    Are you taking into consideration insurance, the depreciating value of your car, etc, or just gas?

  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    Cheer up! :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/alexjon Alex-jon Earl

    Cheer up! :)

  • TMN

    I included the cost of purchasing a brand new car every 10 years, insurance for Seattle Downtown (which isn’t cheap), and some allowance for repairs. I actually think my numbers were a bit generous. Let’s try again:

    $8,500 per year is $163 per week, or roughly $650 per month.

    Assume you buy a new $25,000 car every 10 years, that’s a cost of $48 per week. Subtract $160 per month ($37 per week) for insurance, and you’re down to $78 per week.

    Now assume some major repairs or maintenance that insurance doesn’t cover. Say, $2000 per year on average, so nearly double the cost of your car before you replace it. That’ll drop you to $40 per week for gas. Conservatively that’ll buy you 10 gallons a week, or 300 miles. That’s 30 miles to work, 30 miles from work, 60 miles a day in total, 5 days a week.

    The original claim was that we’re talking about a poor person, so let’s assume they don’t spend so much on the car. 25k will get you a nicer Honda Civic, but you can get a basic model for under 18k. That’ll raise your gas allowance out of the $8,500 per year by $13 per week, or an extra 20 miles per day for a total of 80 miles driven.

    That’s the equivalent of 20,800 miles per year. The US DOT says (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm) that even the most traveled group (males age 35-54) drive on average 18,858 miles per year, and the average across all drivers is 13,476. In short, the AAA seems to be full of it.

  • http://grantmcwilliams.com grantmasterflash

    Everyone knows you never have to do anything to a car but put gas in it!

  • http://grantmcwilliams.com grantmasterflash

    Nobody but tourists who pay for the ride. It had a better farebox recovery than our bus system does. Connect it to the Streetcar/Pioneer square on one end and the Seattle Center/Monorail on the other and let’s see how many people ride it. I don’t care if they live here or not.