Viva La Cola!

Founded in January 2009, PubliCola is a blog about Seattle written by journalists who are dedicated to non-partisan, original daily reporting that prioritizes a balanced approach to news. Started by longtime local editor and award-winning reporter Josh Feit, PubliCola is the first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol.

PubliCola was off and running. In June 2009, PubliCola hired another award-winning journalist, super-sourced Seattle city hall reporter Erica C. Barnett.

People were afraid that blogging would change journalism. Instead, we believe journalism can change blogging. Twenty-first century journalism may look and feel different, and yes Erica isn't afraid to get cranky, but we're committed to making sure online news still delivers independent, reliable, even-keeled coverage. And most of all, we're committed to making sure the coverage sparks honest civic debate.

Bringing you cola for the people, PubliCola is named after Publius Valerius PubliCola, the alias for the authors of the Federalist Papers—the original bloggers.

The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

Don’t Throw Riders Under the Bus

1. The line to get in to last night’s packed King County Council hearing on Metro funding spilled out onto 3rd Ave. and turned left up Yesler. Nearly 300 people signed up to testify. Only four of the council’s nine members showed up: Democrats Bob Ferguson, Larry Gossett, Joe McDermott, and Larry Phillips.


Four Democratic council members show up for last night’s public hearing.


Metro riders line up around the block to testify.

Rainier Beach residents: “Don’t Throw Riders Under the Bus.”

The council is considering a $20 car tab fee to raise $50 million over two years—or else cut bus service by 17 percent, 600,000 hours of service annually. The council needs a two-thirds vote of its nine members (not going to happen) to approve the fee—or a simple majority to send the measure to voters.

Erica tweeted from council chambers with highlights such as the fact that King County Labor Council Executive Secretary Dave Freiboth and Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce lobbyist George Allen testified together in favor of the fee—and this tweet: Metro union member Andrew Jeromsky: “$20 won’t even cover the cost of gas that people will have to buy when their bus service is cut.”

It’s a must read. And here’s the Seattle Times thorough report.

Another must read: an 18-page analysis of the city’s proposed paid sick leave ordinance. Paid sick leave would disproportionately benefit people of color—who are overrepresented in low-wage jobs with no sick leave—and women, who bear the burden of taking care of children and other family members (and are more likely to be victims of domestic violence).

2. Another must read: an 18-page analysis of the city’s proposed paid sick leave ordinance. In the report, the city council’s central staff concluded that requiring paid sick leave could help protect employee health, promote race and social justice, and promote public health. “Providing paid leave reduces the financial cost of taking time off work, and thus makes it easier for employees to address their medical needs and those of their families,” the analysis, by central staff director Ben Noble, says.

The analysis continues:

Access to paid sick days appears to reduce incidences of delayed health care for employees’ family members, among those workers that have access to health care. …

Paid leave is a benefit that could help recruitment and retention, acting as a specific attraction for workers with families and providing the flexibility that all types of employees appreciate. …

The economic incentives noted above for sick leave, also apply to victims of domestic violence.  Paid time will make it less costly to address issues during work hours, if this is necessary.

Additionally, the report finds, paid sick leave would disproportionately benefit people of color—who are overrepresented in low-wage jobs with no sick leave—and women, who bear most of the burden of taking care of children and other family members (and are more likely to be victims of domestic violence).

On the other hand, mandating paid sick leave wouldn’t automatically increase workers’ total compensation.

There is every possibility, and indeed likelihood, that many employers will respond to the leave mandate by decreasing other forms of compensation and/or be reducing the total number of hours they offer workers.  And such adjustments may not be obvious or directly observable in any way.  A planned pay increase that is now not awarded or a bonus that is not paid are among the possible responses. …

That said, it is also worth considering that businesses that pay minimum wage and offer no benefits will have no opportunity to adjust other forms of compensation and could thus face the highest direct costs, at least in percentage terms.

Read the whole report—which also digs into issues around collective bargaining (should unions be allowed to bargain away sick leave rights?), eligibility (what about temporary workers or people who spend only part of their time on the job in Seattle?) and proof of illness (is it fair to require employers to pick up a doctor’s bill for an employee to prove they’re sick?) here.

3. Last night, Mayor Mike McGinn unveiled a proposal on his website to secure the city’s rainy day fund.

He writes:

“Funding by accident.” That’s what some have called Seattle’s past practices when it came to building a healthy balance in the City’s rainy day fund. While many acknowledge the importance of maintaining a reserve of funding in case of economic downturns, to date the City had not been proactively planning for restoring or maintaining this important safety net.

Starting in 2012, I recommend the City set aside .25% of its general revenues – those revenues from the business and occupation tax (B&O), sales tax, property tax and utility tax – and dedicate them to rebuilding the rainy day fund. In 2013 and beyond, the percentage will increase to .5% of general revenue tax receipts. For 2012, this would be approximately $1.9 million. In addition, I will recommend that we dedicate half of all fund balances in excess of forecast to the rainy day fund. Had this policy been in place already, this would have meant another $1 million contribution for year-end 2010.

4. The county council, meeting as the King County Flood Control District, agreed yesterday to spend $30 million over six years to replace the downtown seawall. The city is counting on county funding to pay for the seawall, which will cost an estimated $300 million.

Last year, rural and South King County suburban council members protested that using flood district money to pay for the seawall could take away funding for other flood control projects (like potential flood-control projects on the Green River).

5. A new report from the city’s Department of Planning and Development (DPD) includes hopeful news for development in the city: Building permit applications were up 18 percent in the first six months of this year compared to 2010, and DPD has issued 10 percent more permits this year so far than at the same time last year.

Additionally, DPD received 47 applications for master use permits in June, a major jump from the 35 per month average for the rest of the year so far, and more than any month since September 2008. The upshot: hose holes in the ground all over Seattle could end up getting filled with apartments and condos after all.


  • Scott St. Clair

    I am SO glad I no longer live in King County. Entitlement whores demand that their lives be paid for by someone else. Screw that. Raise bus fares – make those who use pay. And in Seattle, let’s make it so cost-prohibitive to do business that nobody bothers. If you can’t live your pathetic life without a taxpayer-funded subsidy, then it’s your responsibililty to ratchet up your effort and make it better. Screw your courage to the sticking place and do it.

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed fattailed

    Is there a reason Julia Patterson & Jane Hague didn’t bother to show up? Since they seem to think their constituents neither ride the bus nor will be burdened by the increased car traffic caused by by 17% bus cuts, they might have learned something here…

  • jimu

    Kathy Lambert, Julia Patterson, Reagan Dunn, Jane Hague, and Pete von Reichbauer-

    When you have a meeting with that kind of turnout, it is inexcusable that you don’t show up. Voting no is one thing, but how dare you not listen to your own people.

  • jimu

    Kathy Lambert, Julia Patterson, Reagan Dunn, Jane Hague, and Pete von Reichbauer-

    When you have a meeting with that kind of turnout, it is inexcusable that you don’t show up. Voting no is one thing, but how dare you not listen to your own people.

  • Anonymous

    So Mr. St. Clair, don’t come here, don’t take a job here and live elsewhere, don’t benefit from all the hard work we’ve done to make this a livable and valuable community. Don’t come to sporting events, or cultural events, and what’s more, if you live in an adjacent county or even in Eastern Washington, stop. stop right now driving your car on the roads KING COUNTY citizens and businesses paid for.  Stop driving on the bridges we’ve paid for.  Stop your neighbors from taking those entitlements YOU object to that KING COUNTY citizens have paid for.  In other words, GTFO!

  • Anonymous

    So Mr. St. Clair, don’t come here, don’t take a job here and live elsewhere, don’t benefit from all the hard work we’ve done to make this a livable and valuable community. Don’t come to sporting events, or cultural events, and what’s more, if you live in an adjacent county or even in Eastern Washington, stop. stop right now driving your car on the roads KING COUNTY citizens and businesses paid for.  Stop driving on the bridges we’ve paid for.  Stop your neighbors from taking those entitlements YOU object to that KING COUNTY citizens have paid for.  In other words, GTFO!

  • simpler is better

    new employer here.  happy to comply with higher minimum wages laws, paid sick leave, etc.  But can government please just make one stop internet based shopping for me to pay (as in pay each week — not quarterly) the various tax and contributions I have to pay?  there are multiple systems for fica medicare state l and i premiums state unemployment insurance.  in the free market the paycheck service that will handle all this charges about one thousand dollars a year for my first employee — which is outrageous since this employee is going to be making about $1500 a month in a part time job.  so about 7% of the total payroll is going to the administrative cost of having someone else figure out all this stuff (because if you do it on your own it takes about 100 hours of time or you get it wrong or you hire an accountant for a few thousand bucks).   the result is about a thousand dollars going to some snonymous company — that money can’t go into my employee’s pocket nor mine.  these payments don’t even go to the government in some cases until a few months after the relevant pay period.  I’d be happy if the government just set up an online app where I put down the hours, the rate of pay, and have an e payment and boom I’m done and the various governments track it and get there money sooner.  Neflix and itunes store and such can make things easy — why can’t government?

    there is such a multiplicity of forms and rules in fact it is a burden.   I view the sick leave the same way:  now I am supposed to police whether people are really sick or not?  what about days where they’re stressed and it’s emotional anxiety type sickness?  wouldn’t it just be easier to raise the minimum wage?  I don’t really want to even have to keep track of sick days versus personal days versus holidays and all that.  I’d prefer simpler systems like “the hourly wage is now $12 an hour” or 9 or 10 whatever, and then be free of the admin burdens of evaluating claims of sickness and counting sich days versus personal days versus unpaid leave days etc.    the bottom line is you now gotta hire an accountant, just to have one employee.  This is a burden on creating jobs by the real jobs creators.  (The marginal tax rate of my profits btw has nothing to do with whether I will create another job).  There should be simpler ways of achieving the progressive goals.  

  • Jb

    Careful what you ask for…

  • Scott St. Clair

    If I was facing a whining stacked deck I wouldn’t show up either.

    Patroclus1, your so-called “hard work” is simply filching from the pockets of others to pay for what you can’t or won’t pay for yourself. What do we call that in everyday life? Oh yeah – theft. Bus riders should pay fares sufficient to pay bus costs. Why should those who don’t ride buses pay for your ticket.

    To let you know, I lived in King County for 27 years and in Snohomish, Cowlitz and Thurston Counties for another 21 years. I’ve paid more in taxes in those counties, bub, than you’ll probably earn in a lifetime. What I believe is necessary is for everyone to pull their own weight an not mooch off others. You can’t pay for it, then don’t ride it, do it, see it or go there. Pretty simple.

    I now live in Essex County, NJ where my goal is to transform Jersey into a libertarian paradise. We’re making progress, too.

    Looking at the pic of those waiting in line to testiwhine, I didn’t see a soul who looked like they’d missed a meal or whatever.

    My advice to you: Grow up and take responsibility for your own life instead of demaning that others subsidize it.

  • Trevor

    Shame on the Republican no shows.

  • Beck Johnson

    And all drivers should pay the actual, non-subsidized cost of driving – including the actual price of gasoline (probably $8+/gallon) and the cost to build and maintain the highway system. Right?

  • Random Engineer

    Scott, you’ve been a jackass for years, but this post takes the cake. Let me guess, the now out of King County place you post your screeds from has a) no public roads, b) no public schools, and c) no public common wealth at all. Just a bunch of independent free marketers like yourselfishness.

    This nation has uncommon wealth concentrated in the upper and owning classes and can damn well afford to tax itself to achieve livable standards of work and living for all.

    I’m glad you no longer live in King County too. I’m also glad you no longer get a byline on Crosscut. Ass.

    Oh wait, you live in Olympia? And you have the gall to call out subsidization via taxation? Ass with a hat and some stupid noise makers.

  • not taking it.

    hey dude:

    1. when we have government democratically elected and it runs things like busses and you pay taxes and fees to support it, no, it’s not theft  — its by choice to charge you for stuff.  
    2. no society is the libertarian paradise you salivate over in your mind.  in a state of nature the taxation rate by which social customs mandate the successful hunters give meat to the less so, the implicit taxation rate is WAY higher than what you pay in an advanced society today.
    3. in the USA the rich pay way less than germany france etc.   it’s not working is it. 
    4. did you pay for creation of the usa?  fighting ww2?  the road system?  your schooling?  you take a home mortgage interest loan deduction, don’t you, while you bitch about subsidies.  Am I right? 

  • future generations

    let’s put int he price of carbon warming and climate change.  let’s see the fair market value of the EARTH is several aupoudioaufiopsaufidopaufidosauiobilliongazaillion dollars.  so the share chargeagble to scott st. clair for helping to cause climate change is just fdusaiopfudioaufdioaufdioaufidoapufidopaufidsoapufdisp/7 billion, or let’s say ufdopaufiopaufidoaufidopaillion.  Scott, please send in a check for that amount, okay?

  • future generations

    let’s put int he price of carbon warming and climate change.  let’s see the fair market value of the EARTH is several aupoudioaufiopsaufidopaufidosauiobilliongazaillion dollars.  so the share chargeagble to scott st. clair for helping to cause climate change is just fdusaiopfudioaufdioaufdioaufidoapufidopaufidsoapufdisp/7 billion, or let’s say ufdopaufiopaufidoaufidopaillion.  Scott, please send in a check for that amount, okay?

  • Junípero

    Bus fares have risen significantly in recent years. Business is leading the fight for maintaining bus service because they know people need good transit to get around.

    Also, most bus riders also own a vehicle. And all drivers benefit from buses because that means much less traffic on the roads – Seattle’s streets and freeways would simply stop working if everyone who buses to work had to drive. We need to stop this BS false dichotomy between “bus riders” and “drivers” – they are usually the same person.

  • Mantooth

    Ok, so your solution is basically force more people into the streets as you drive your Mercedes on by.  Great idea Scrooge!

    I have worked my ass off for years to get where I am and thank God Metro was there to get me where I needed to go when I could not afford a car, much less the gas to fill that car, when I was laid off.  Now I have a great, well-paying job and money to spend on whatever product or service it is that you may offer. 

    See that there???  I just proved that helping me, the entitlement whore, also helps you.  Imagine that!

    Someone as wealthy as you should be able to understand simple economics.

  • Scott St. Clair

    Show me actual evidentiary proof of your $8/gallon allegation. The high cost of gas in Washington is largely attributable to gas taxes. Here’s a link to a map that shows them state-by-state: http://www.easy-tax-information.com/support-files/gasoline-tax-map-may-2011.pdf

    Those who purchase gasoline subsidize transit. Does any part of a transit fare subsidize roads?

    And the performance for public transit? Let’s review the abysmal failure and pack of lies that is Sound Transit: http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/blog/post/sound-transit-officials-missed-their-ridership-target-mile 

    What about the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the other goods you buy – trucks on roads brought them to you, not some silly bus or 19th-century-technology light rail system.

    Roads are freedom. In my Subaru, I go where I please when I please. When was the last time you told your bus driver that you’d like to take the scenic route or tried to schlep the drycleaning and groceries on light rail?

    But if you still want to play pay-your-way chicken, I can dig it. You and other transit riders pay 100 percent the cost of transit, which includes paying your share of the roads on which buses travel, and me and mine will pay our share individual travel, which we already do by buying the cars, the gas, the taxes and the whole nine yards.

    What would your bus fare be then?

  • Scott St. Clair

    Technically, the King County Council is non-partisan. And you’ve pissed off Julia Patterson.

  • ivan

    We’re glad you don’t live here any more, too. You are a liar for hire and a true POS.

  • repete

    #2)  The city appears
    to be run more by council central staff than elected council members.  Unfortunately for us, they are happy to make recommendations
    for law because there “appears” to be benefit, or “could” could create a benefit.  There is no science to back up their claim
    that this is a public health issue.  Here
    is how they parse it out in the report:

    “In any
    case, there is not a rich literature showing a causal link between paid sick
    leave and improved individual or public health. This is not to say that the
    common-sense notion that sick leave improves public health is not true, rather
    that it has not been specifically studied in any great detail. Furthermore, it
    would perhaps be hard to demonstrate such a direct link, as it would be
    difficult to control for the large range of factors affecting health outcomes,
    and it would require analysis over a considerable period of time to detect
    meaningful long-term trends. That said, we can say a few things for certain.”

    I present
    the above paragraph as representative of the utter lack of critical reasoning in
    city hall.  There is no science, but it
    seems and feels right, and there isn’t science that against what I feel, the
    science would be hard to do anyway, so what seems right must be right.  This is not a public health issue, it is a
    civil rights issue.  That most crackers
    have paid sick leave so everyone should have paid sick leave is the real
    driving force behind this legislation.   City hall should stop bullshitting.

  • repete

    #2)  The city appears
    to be run more by council central staff than elected council members.  Unfortunately for us, they are happy to make recommendations
    for law because there “appears” to be benefit, or “could” could create a benefit.  There is no science to back up their claim
    that this is a public health issue.  Here
    is how they parse it out in the report:

    “In any
    case, there is not a rich literature showing a causal link between paid sick
    leave and improved individual or public health. This is not to say that the
    common-sense notion that sick leave improves public health is not true, rather
    that it has not been specifically studied in any great detail. Furthermore, it
    would perhaps be hard to demonstrate such a direct link, as it would be
    difficult to control for the large range of factors affecting health outcomes,
    and it would require analysis over a considerable period of time to detect
    meaningful long-term trends. That said, we can say a few things for certain.”

    I present
    the above paragraph as representative of the utter lack of critical reasoning in
    city hall.  There is no science, but it
    seems and feels right, and there isn’t science that against what I feel, the
    science would be hard to do anyway, so what seems right must be right.  This is not a public health issue, it is a
    civil rights issue.  That most crackers
    have paid sick leave so everyone should have paid sick leave is the real
    driving force behind this legislation.   City hall should stop bullshitting.

  • jimu

    As a “bottom-liner” that is in favor of smaller government, I will say that it was heartbreaking watching, on the KC channel, all the people at the meeting yesterday. It was evident how many people rely on the bus system to go about their normal lives.

    That being said, I am going to  make a case for the other side. Many of us are tired of always having to pay higher taxes, fees, and tolls while we watch government piss the money away. We feel like we are being nickel and dimed while we see our money go to light bulb legislation, public art, $27,000 music videos on bagging dog crap, and paying King County Library employees’ wages to march in parades. These things shouldn’t just outrage the fiscally responsible Tim Eyman supporters, but should outrage each and every Metro rider that will be affected by the cuts. Every dollar that is pissed away could go to support Metro, along with other necessary services.

    As a person that watched the meeting last night, it was obvious that there were three things that could be done to raise more money for Metro:

    1. End the Ride Free Zone. Not only should this be done immediately, but it should have been done a long time ago. Metro has run out of money and they have a Ride Free Zone? This is ridiculous.

    2. Collect fares from EVERY rider. It was apparent from some of the comments that there are a good number riders that, when they go to pay, they claim they don’t have the money and don’t have to pay their share. Not only is this unacceptable, but other riders notice and it breeds an attitude that this is an acceptable practice.

    3. Raise fares. I do not favor raising fares for every rider. Many people that live in poverty on fixed incomes, such as seniors and the disabled, are simply unable to be able to deal with increased fares. However, it was plainly evident that many bus riders are working people, many of which own vehicles, that are able to contribute more to this form of transportation and would gladly support a rate hike as opposed to service cuts.

    Metro would have a lot more money if these three things were enacted. It may not be enough to cover the shortfall, but car drivers would be a lot more inclined to open their pockets if we could see that Metro was doing everything possible to make their money stretch.

    http://soundpolitics.com/archives/014938.html

    http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=76&sid=502539

  • jimu

    As a “bottom-liner” that is in favor of smaller government, I will say that it was heartbreaking watching, on the KC channel, all the people at the meeting yesterday. It was evident how many people rely on the bus system to go about their normal lives.

    That being said, I am going to  make a case for the other side. Many of us are tired of always having to pay higher taxes, fees, and tolls while we watch government piss the money away. We feel like we are being nickel and dimed while we see our money go to light bulb legislation, public art, $27,000 music videos on bagging dog crap, and paying King County Library employees’ wages to march in parades. These things shouldn’t just outrage the fiscally responsible Tim Eyman supporters, but should outrage each and every Metro rider that will be affected by the cuts. Every dollar that is pissed away could go to support Metro, along with other necessary services.

    As a person that watched the meeting last night, it was obvious that there were three things that could be done to raise more money for Metro:

    1. End the Ride Free Zone. Not only should this be done immediately, but it should have been done a long time ago. Metro has run out of money and they have a Ride Free Zone? This is ridiculous.

    2. Collect fares from EVERY rider. It was apparent from some of the comments that there are a good number riders that, when they go to pay, they claim they don’t have the money and don’t have to pay their share. Not only is this unacceptable, but other riders notice and it breeds an attitude that this is an acceptable practice.

    3. Raise fares. I do not favor raising fares for every rider. Many people that live in poverty on fixed incomes, such as seniors and the disabled, are simply unable to be able to deal with increased fares. However, it was plainly evident that many bus riders are working people, many of which own vehicles, that are able to contribute more to this form of transportation and would gladly support a rate hike as opposed to service cuts.

    Metro would have a lot more money if these three things were enacted. It may not be enough to cover the shortfall, but car drivers would be a lot more inclined to open their pockets if we could see that Metro was doing everything possible to make their money stretch.

    http://soundpolitics.com/archives/014938.html

    http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=76&sid=502539

  • MVH

    Using your logic, school children are stealing money out of my pocket, because I don’t have any kids. And tourists who get in a car crash in Seattle are stealing my Medic One taxes. Nonsense.

    Everyone should pay their fair share for public services, including transit, whether they use them directly or not.

    Good luck on turning New Jersey into a paradise.

  • MVH

    Using your logic, school children are stealing money out of my pocket, because I don’t have any kids. And tourists who get in a car crash in Seattle are stealing my Medic One taxes. Nonsense.

    Everyone should pay their fair share for public services, including transit, whether they use them directly or not.

    Good luck on turning New Jersey into a paradise.

  • Scott St. Clair

    How do you cliche, let me count the ways. “Democratically elected” about sums it up, though not in the way you intended. King County and Seattle keep electing something-for-nothing tax-and-spenders as if there’s no tomorrow. Well guess what – tomorrow is today. Look at Europe, the federal deficit and a majority of the states, including Washington state. Can’t pay their bills, defaults, budget shortfalls and more. And it won’t be getting better any time soon. The responsible answer is to radically reduce the size of government and its cost.

    Germany and France aren’t working – checked the crap state of EU affairs lately? How soon before the euro collapses and European countries revert to their old currencies? How soon before the profligate social spending makes them all Greece-like. Let’s see…Italy, Portugal, Spain and Ireland are at the precipice. Ireland’s bond rating fell to junk status this week. You like that?

    The purpose of government isn’t to provide for people what they’re unwilling or unable to provide for themselves. Government’s purpose is to secure our liberty and freedom so that we can provide for ourselves through the marketplace. Part of securing that liberty and freedom is national security. I’m very hawkish there. But most of the rest of what government does it mucks up.

    I paid for my schooling myself with the help of my family. Keeping my own money isn’t a subsidy, it’s a right. Property rights are civil and human rights – they’re Constitutionally protected rights. Class envy, which demands tax increases on the so-called “rich,” is greed and avarice of the worst sort. After all, I can show you people in the world who, comparitively speaking, make you like richer than Midas. Should your taxes be hiked through the freakin’ roof for their pleasure?

    Remember, the top one percent of income earners already pay 38 percent of federal taxes, while the bottom 50 percent of income earners paid a whimpy three percent of taxes. http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/top10-percent-income-earners

    Who is subsidizing whom?

  • Scott St. Clair

    I drive a Subaru.

  • Grover

    “Raise car tabs or cut bus service” is a false choice.

    What they should do is cut the very high costs of Metro bus service, and raise the very low fares for Metro buses.  That is the best choice.

    Metro currently collects less than $1 per boarding!  Less than $1.  Why should people expect to be able to ride a bus for less than $1 per boarding?  That is ludicrous.  Raise fares.

    Metro’s current farebox recovery ratio is about 23%, meaning fares pay only about 23% of the cost of bus trips.  The national average farebox recovery ratio is 30%.  Get Metro’s farebox recovery ratio up to the national average of 30% and you don’t need to cut any service at all.

    Metro’s costs per service hour are the 3rd-highest of the largest 27 bus systems in the U.S.  Get the costs down to the U.S. average, and you solve the entire “problem.”

    What do high costs and low fares have to do with car license fees?  Nothing.  Why should motorists pay more to solve Metro’s problems?  Let Metro solve their own problems.

    Just 25 cents per boarding increase in bus fares brings in more revenue for Metro than the proposed car license fee increase.  Bus riders can’t pay 25 cents per boarding more?  If you can’t afford an additional 25 cents per boarding to ride the bus, you sure as hell can’t afford to drive a car.

    Raise bus fares.  Lower Metro’s operating costs.

    Stop sponging off of motorists.

  • Scott St. Clair

    I live in Montclair, New Jersey. And your limited and parochial analysis betrays an inability to think creatively. I’m not opposed to community – I’m opposed to enforced government-imposed conformity.

    I’m all for everyone paying their fair share. Let’s make a rule that everyone pays the same amount of taxes irrespective of income. Isn’t that fair? 

    I’ve already posted in this thread data that refutes the lie you tell about taxing the so-called “rich.” Crap is the word best used to describe it. Upper-income earners already pay the freight for the taking class.

    I believe in supporting the makers, not the takers. Free enterprise, baby – it’s where the real action is.

  • Scott St. Clair

    Thanks for the Gulag thinking, Ivan. But get a sense of humor, would you, or you’ll have a stroke.

  • gohuskies

    They have already raised fares 80%. $20 is half a gallon of gas. It’s not an unbearable burden. Cutting 17% of service would be. Sales tax revenue has cratered because of the recession and unfortunately you need revenue from somewhere.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “ Let’s make a rule that everyone pays the same amount of taxes irrespective of income. Isn’t that fair? ”

    Nope.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “If I was facing a whining stacked deck I wouldn’t show up either. ”

    Of course not – you’re a fucking coward with no concept of what it is to be a civic leader.

    Huge surprise there.  Most right-wing douchebags (in and out of public office) have a strong preference for only facing audiences that agree with them.  It’s easier that way.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    Why do you hate America?

  • Scott St. Clair

    Speaking of future generations…

    Thinking like yours and several of the others on this thread is what got us into this mess. The current bill owing and due today for federal promises of all types made but not funded is…the envelope please…$61.6 trillion.

    Your share – that’s YOUR share is $528,000. And I won’t take your check or let you put it on VISA.

    The source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-06-06-us-owes-62-trillion-in-debt_n.htm

    The voodoo-science that is Al Gore’s meal ticket to a California oceanside mansion ain’t selling.

  • Mantooth

    That’s your rebuttal.  WEAK!

  • Scott St. Clair

    And why not? Oh…wait…you must think you’re entitled to something that you didn’t pay for. My bad.

  • Mantooth

    You have listed a number of problems but no ideas on how to solve them.  How about posting some substance along with the rhetoric next time.

  • Scott St. Clair

    I love America and the values that made it successful and strong, which didn’t include the welfare state. Why do you hate the truth?

    And really…as a debater? Don’t quit your day job.

  • Mantooth

    That was in response to Grover.

  • not buying it.

    nice dodge scott.    changing the subject, like most right wingers when confronted with facts that destory your argument. 

    you do NOT pay your share of costs associated with driving, you greedy subsidizee you.  

    you do greedily suck up the home mortgage interest deduction, right? 

  • Scott St. Clair

    Dressing spiffy makes the community better. I’m going to send you my Brooks Bros. bill because when I look good, the community looks good. One of the many community services I offer.

    It is best that such as you not reproduce. The community gene pool is improved as a result.

  • Scott St. Clair

    Oh? And you are…???

    If I preferred only facing like-mindeds, why would I be here face you, the no-minded? Don’t you find it interesting that I’m taking on the lot of you without missing a beat or batting an eyelash…and having a marvelous time doing it?

  • greed at play.

    france and germany both have debts less than ours, and their middle classes are better off than ours, so yes, they are working better. 

    you dodge dodge dodge.  I didn’t say portugal.  I said germany. 

    government’s purpose is whatever the fuck we the majority say it is within constitutional bounds.  you don’t like taxes?  tought shit.  cry me a river.

    you take a home mortgage loan interest deduction thus you are a huge beneficiary of unearned welfare.  you did not pay for your freedom, for the usa revolution, the civil war, or ww2, yet you live off the benefits of all that. 

    you do not have a right to keep your own money.  you have a right to live in a society under a constitution where we can democratically decide to tax you and others to buy stuff; you do use the schools, roads, courts, so you’re taking and you don’t want to pay and the name for this is freeloaderism. 

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “I love America and the values that made it successful and strong,”

    No you don’t.  You hate Americans (except rich ones), and you hate America.

    Perhaps you should move to a country more to your liking.  Unfortunately – your utopian world doesn’t exist.  I suggest we wall off Alaska, or perhaps Kansas, rename it to “Dumbfuckistan” and let people like you move there.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    FUN!

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr Baker

    Eat the rich.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “And you are…???”

    Were I an elected official – I damn well wouldn’t hide under my blankets rather than knowning I’d be getting an earful from the very citizens that I was elected to represent.

    It is the responsibility of elected officials to listen to and represent all in their constituency – not merely those with whom they agree.

    They – like you, are fucking cowards unworthy of public office.

    And you aren’t “taking on” jack shit posting anonymously on a PubliCocla comments thread from your right-wing Utopia in New Jersey – where you pay MORE in taxes than you’d be paying if you still lived here (including on your car tabs).

    Fucking moron.

  • Mantooth

    Ummm…are we on the same planet?  Your argument is INSANE.  Comparing providing education for children or an ambulance service to your dressing spiffy is laughable at best.  Personally it makes me want to vomit.

    It would be best that you not reproduce either, that way you can’t directly impression a child with your perverted view of the world.

  • beezer

    We are glad you don’t live in King County too!

  • Scott St. Clair

    Oh? Who susidizes my home mortgage?

    A subsidy is when someone pays for another to have something, not when you pay out of your own pocket. My mortgage payment comes completely out of my own pocket.

    That the federal government determined that national public policy should encourage home ownership via a tax deduction isn’t a subsidy. I simply keep more of my own money.

    But those who haven’t figured out how to make or keep money can’t figure this out.

    I paid for my car when I bought it. Buy my own gas and insurance. Who then subsidizes my driving? Who subsidizes yours – or was your last car repo’d?

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “Why should motorists pay more to solve Metro’s problems?”

    Because motorists benefit from a robust public transit service, and suffer when public transportation does.

    As you’re about to see if funding to keep Metro going doesn’t materialize one way or another.

    The ignorance of people like you is astounding.

  • Mantooth

    Definitely proves he is right.

  • Grover

    “government’s purpose is whatever the fuck we the majority say it is within constitutional bounds.”

    So, let’s put the car tab increase for Metro to a vote, and see what the “majority” wants to do about it.

  • repete

    the hell he didn’t

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    About what?

  • Scott St. Clair

    And we democratically booted enough Democrats out of the House last November for just such thinking as yours.

    I did pay for the Civil War, thank you for asking. My great-grandfather was Private Albert C. Roberts of the 20th Maine. Perhaps you remember them? They held their ground and stemmed the rebel tide at Little Round Top under the command of Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain on July 2, 1863. He later became a major and master of horse in the North Dakota National Guard.

    If I don’t have a right to keep my own money, then neither do you. I will send some gunzels over to your place to clean you out.

    The government that governs best is the government that governs least. And government’s purpose isn’t as you hypothesize – where’s your protection of minority rights and dissent, you authoritarian, you?

    Or I could see to it that you are taxed at 100 percent. That wax your ass?

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr Baker

    Re 3, I look forward to the budget McGinn would have to cobble together to make that happen. We are in the “rainy days”, and most projections I see from economists is a recovery point close to where the economy cratered happening closer to 2014.
    So, mayor Hoover might want to describe economic conditions rather than a date certain for replenishing the rainy day fund.

    Until then, eat the rich.

  • Jakers

    As in, there is simply a membership fee and if you can’t pay your share you’re given the boot? And then the rich, in order to have a house maid, would have to pay her tens of thousands of dollars more so that she can afford to pay the membership fee to be able to live/work here.

    But on that note, Who the fuck are you to think that I’m not damn well entitled to be compensated for the use of shared resources that the rich use to get rich/maintain their wealth? How easy would it have been for Bill Gates to become the richest man in the world had it not been for the courts system, workers, and a society of law and order that allowed him to create and protect intellectual property?

    You are the fucknut that believes that he is entitled to use society’s wealth and resource for his own gain and then keep it all to yourself because your so much damn smarter than the rest of us fools.

  • Mantooth

    About everything…only because he drives a Subaru.  People who don’t drive Subarus are entitlement whores.

  • greed at play.

    fully agree grover.  put it to a vote.  or have elected representatives vote on it.  it’s all fair, right?  it is not theft and in return for this money we the people get stuff so going around saying taxes are theft gummint is theft is really stupid, right?

    theft — you don’t get a vote.  and you don’t get to the use the stuff the money goes to buy.  it’s pretty simple but folks like s st. c go around saying nonsense like taxes are theft, it gets tiresome dealing with their ignorance.  i’ts not a viewpoint or debating point that deserves respect.

  • greed at play.

    Hey scott dude, wow I thank you for your paying for the civil war by havingsomeone else fight — NOT YOU.

    Yes you are starting to get it.  Neither you nor I have a right to keep all our money we live under a constitution in which taxes are legal, so your statement you have a right to keep all your money is a bunch of pseudo intellectual sophistry, a/k/a “horse shit.”  Glad you finally agree. 

    What government governing least you talkin’ bout?  somalia?  the peruvian jungle? 

    You say purpose isn’t what I say, and you bring up minority rights and dissent.  Can’t you read?  I said we live in a majority rule system UNDER THE CONSTITUTION and of course is has protections.   I freely state that, but you go around saying taxes are theft when they’re not. 

    You couldn’t see to it I am taxed at 100%.  But if you got my tax rate up to 90% the way it was under Eisnehower, then you just might help restore our finances and lead us down the road to continued decades of growth and prosperity the way we had it under Eisenhower and int he 50s and 60s ……till a bunch of ignorant fools like you came on the scene screaming for less taxes.   

  • greed at play.

    Hey scott dude, wow I thank you for your paying for the civil war by havingsomeone else fight — NOT YOU.

    Yes you are starting to get it.  Neither you nor I have a right to keep all our money we live under a constitution in which taxes are legal, so your statement you have a right to keep all your money is a bunch of pseudo intellectual sophistry, a/k/a “horse shit.”  Glad you finally agree. 

    What government governing least you talkin’ bout?  somalia?  the peruvian jungle? 

    You say purpose isn’t what I say, and you bring up minority rights and dissent.  Can’t you read?  I said we live in a majority rule system UNDER THE CONSTITUTION and of course is has protections.   I freely state that, but you go around saying taxes are theft when they’re not. 

    You couldn’t see to it I am taxed at 100%.  But if you got my tax rate up to 90% the way it was under Eisnehower, then you just might help restore our finances and lead us down the road to continued decades of growth and prosperity the way we had it under Eisenhower and int he 50s and 60s ……till a bunch of ignorant fools like you came on the scene screaming for less taxes.   

  • greed at play.

    the values making us strong included the whiskey tax and armed suppression of the farmers protesting it.  I am glad you side with our founders in suppressing that kind of nonsense dissent — it’s not valid to protest democratically imposed taxes with rebellion.  Glad you support the right to have taxes scott dude.  The way founders intended.  BTW they wrot a constitution for a national government, so no, they didn’t believe in “least government” which would have meant sticking with the articles of confed, which had a weak central gummint. 

  • greed at play.

    the values making us strong included the whiskey tax and armed suppression of the farmers protesting it.  I am glad you side with our founders in suppressing that kind of nonsense dissent — it’s not valid to protest democratically imposed taxes with rebellion.  Glad you support the right to have taxes scott dude.  The way founders intended.  BTW they wrot a constitution for a national government, so no, they didn’t believe in “least government” which would have meant sticking with the articles of confed, which had a weak central gummint. 

  • Scott St. Clair

    Jane Hague, Reagan Dunn, Kathy Lambert, Pete Von Reichbauer and Julia Paterson were elected by voters in their councilmanic district. I’d be damn surprised if any of their constituents were at the whineathon.

    I’m not posting anonymously – my name is attached to every comment.

    If it’s the responsibility of election officials to listen, etc., then why did the four KC councilmembers not insist upon hearing from those opposed to bus subsidies?

    True – I pay more now in taxes, but I’m working to change that. We had a great start with Gov. Chris Christie delivering a smack down to government-sector unions by making them pay more for their pensions and health care. Just a start, mind you. I won’t be satisfied until every state is right-to-work and unionization no longer exists in the government sector. On that latter point, I’m in accord with FDR, Fiorello LaGuardia and George Meany (you can look them up).

    You take yourself too seriously as if you matter. Frankly, I can’t see where anyone takes you seriously at all. As for me, I could care less what you think, which makes this all great fun for me.

  • Scott St. Clair

    At least I have a life. Shall I regale you with the fun times my new bride and I are having hitting the hot spots of NYC? Great fun, eh what?

  • MVH

    Yeah, Scooter. And your gene pool joke was as original as it was funny.

    Aren’t you the guy who was just boasting about your debating skills?

  • jimu

    I know for a fact that there were several people there from Kathy Lambert, Reagan Dunn, and Julia Paterson’s districts.

  • Doc Johnson

    When Monster grows up, he’s going to be just like Scott St. Clair. Can’t wait.

  • Anonymous

    Scott, “If you can’t live your pathetic life without a taxpayer-funded subsidy” You own a car, yeah? You use roads, yeah? You attended some sort of public school in your life, yeah? I am sure you eat a ton of beef and corn, yeah?

    Try living without subsidies, my friend. I am pretty tired of giving you free parking and I am pretty tired of giving access to my roads. Is that fair?

  • Anonymous

    and your use of the phrase “hot spots” gives you away as a total douche. Have fun witth the clubs and your eventual coke-fueled marriage shattering affair!

  • Anonymous

    Oh my god, seriously. Are you a parody or a real person? I cannot tell.

    What you see as a whining stacked deck was a massive group of citizens that do contribute, you jack ass. The problem with your reasoning is that you cannot fathom that other people pay for shit that you use. Guess what, some people cannot use cars. Not because they are lazy. Poor doesn’t equal lazy, but trying to convince you of that is just going to be a fruitless effort. I am sorry to say, but you couldn’t have you car without poor people. You couldn’t have your food without poor people. You couldn’t have affluence without a lower class.

    It’s funny that your idea of success is the amount of money that you make, and that’s fine. C’est la vie. Douches exist.

    These citizens are taking responsibility. They ARE GOING TO PAY. They already pay. We all pay taxes. We all pay bus fares. I want you to practice what you preach. Get along without subsidized road construction. Get along without gas subsidies. THEN and only then will I even consider one bit of the vitriol spewing from your mouth anything remotely intelligent or insightful.

    Lastly, I really hope you don’t plan on collecting social security.  Save and hide your money under your mattress while living in your libertarian paradise.

  • Anonymous

    Grover is right. Let’s put the car tab fee to a vote in king county and have the hundreds of thousands of bus riding Seattleites eclipse the tens of thousands of Eastsiders that would vote against a tax.

  • Anonymous

    Grover is right. Let’s put the car tab fee to a vote in king county and have the hundreds of thousands of bus riding Seattleites eclipse the tens of thousands of Eastsiders that would vote against a tax.

  • wheat/chaff etc.

    1. take the annual performance reports which rank all routes by riders per hour.
    2. reivew how many hours to cut — it’s 17% right?
    3. draw a line across the performance reports on about page 17 out of 100 pages — you know what I mean —  cutting out the 17% of the hours that are on the routes with the lowest riders per hour of service.  keep the other 83%.
    greatest good and all that.
    QED a 17% cut in hours can lead to perhaps only a 8% cut in output of riders. 

    because the product is rides — not service hours. 

  • http://jabailo.tumblr.com John Bailo

    The whole tone of this Tax should be offensive to personal transit drivers everywhere.

    By what right does one group of people have to tax another group so they can derive the benefits of costly mass transportation?

    I’m all for buses and trains…but they should have their own funding mechanisms, preferably free market fares.

    Raise the fares or become more efficient.   But don’t make people who have chosen personal transit fund mass transit.

  • Rob

    Libertarian paradise?  

    Can you give me 1 example of such a place? 

  • Anonymous

    You thought process is so faulty, John.  Public transportation is inherently public. This means it can be used by anyone. There is not feud. By your logic, people shouldn’t be paying for public schools via taxes because some people have their children attend private school. You cannot pick and choose.

    Raise gas prices but don’t make people who choose (or have no choice but) to use public transportation fund private transportation.

  • Random Engineer

    Thanks be that you are no longer in Olympia or King County. Please stay in New Jersey, forever. “The makers”? What a load of crap. You and your kind are so full of themselves.

    Now maybe can you stay the hell out of King County & Washington State business? We have problems to solve, not ideologies to act out on. Conduct your experiments in radical reactionary political philosophy elsewhere. Ass. Hat.

  • Scott St. Clair

    I’m 61-years-old and I don’t plan on collecting Social Security because I’m not sure it will be there in four more years.

    Where did you learn logic – Meth U?

  • Scott St. Clair

    Tis a consummation devoutely to be wished…

    Name me one socialist or big-government, high-tax paradise? Greece comes to mind.

  • Scott St. Clair

    Well, I’m whipping your sorry butt, aren’t I?

  • http://www.twitter.com/joeszi Joe Szilagyi

    “I’m all for everyone paying their fair share. Let’s make a rule that
    everyone pays the same amount of taxes irrespective of income. Isn’t
    that fair?”

    25% flat unavoidable tax rate on everything, including corporate tax rates and capital gains taxes? If it’s earned or derived income, it’s liable and you can’t get out of it? That has potential.

  • Anonymous

    ….and what happens if it is available? You will refuse?

    Also, I am glad you have heard of my alma mater. Good news? We are all quite fastidious.

  • Rob

    So in other words, you have no example.  

    Socialist Big Government paradise? While the word “paradise” is a stretch,  I would start by looking at the Scandinavian countries.

  • Scott St. Clair

    T’ain’t that simple, McGee. You and yours and the “thinking” that’s associated with you IS the problem. How many times must I point this out to you?

    You can play your little government-control-of-my-life-is-best-because-I’m-too-stupid-to-live-it-as-a-free-person game all you like, but I refuse to go there. Anyone who thinks some elected goombah or bogus bureaucrat can make a better economic choice than the marketplace needs to upgrade the quality of the crack he’s smoking.

    The country wasn’t founded so that freeloaders can get a gub’mint check. In fact, just the opposite – it was founded so that free men and women can live their lives without government mucking in their affairs. Nobody has ever rebelled in favor of more government, more regulation, more taxes, more tyranny. You can look that up, too.

    The more you tax and regulate and the bigger government grows the more your problems grow. Ever noticed? There’s a correlation there, kiddies, that even the blindest of blind men can see. You have your programs and your fees and your rules and your permits and your taxes and your blah and your blah and your blah and your lives are not better – in fact they’re worse.

    But guess what…Because most of you can’t see beyond your slavish lust for more of someone else’s property you’re not able to see that it’s all collapsing down around your ears. Did you like Gov. Gregoire’s all-cuts budget? Wait until next year because it will be worse. The state’s quarterly revenue forecasts continue to fail to meet expectation, so more cuts are mandated.

    Raise taxes, you say. Ah, but voters in Washington state said jam that idea when they passed I-1053 and dumped I-1098. And they did so in both cases by HUGE margins.

    King County politicos are afraid to put a transit tax on the ballot because they know it would get crushed. Dollars to donuts they have internal polling that says not just no but HELL NO!

    Get used to it because this is the way it’s going to be for a L-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-N-G time to come.

  • Scott St. Clair

    T’ain’t that simple, McGee. You and yours and the “thinking” that’s associated with you IS the problem. How many times must I point this out to you?

    You can play your little government-control-of-my-life-is-best-because-I’m-too-stupid-to-live-it-as-a-free-person game all you like, but I refuse to go there. Anyone who thinks some elected goombah or bogus bureaucrat can make a better economic choice than the marketplace needs to upgrade the quality of the crack he’s smoking.

    The country wasn’t founded so that freeloaders can get a gub’mint check. In fact, just the opposite – it was founded so that free men and women can live their lives without government mucking in their affairs. Nobody has ever rebelled in favor of more government, more regulation, more taxes, more tyranny. You can look that up, too.

    The more you tax and regulate and the bigger government grows the more your problems grow. Ever noticed? There’s a correlation there, kiddies, that even the blindest of blind men can see. You have your programs and your fees and your rules and your permits and your taxes and your blah and your blah and your blah and your lives are not better – in fact they’re worse.

    But guess what…Because most of you can’t see beyond your slavish lust for more of someone else’s property you’re not able to see that it’s all collapsing down around your ears. Did you like Gov. Gregoire’s all-cuts budget? Wait until next year because it will be worse. The state’s quarterly revenue forecasts continue to fail to meet expectation, so more cuts are mandated.

    Raise taxes, you say. Ah, but voters in Washington state said jam that idea when they passed I-1053 and dumped I-1098. And they did so in both cases by HUGE margins.

    King County politicos are afraid to put a transit tax on the ballot because they know it would get crushed. Dollars to donuts they have internal polling that says not just no but HELL NO!

    Get used to it because this is the way it’s going to be for a L-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-N-G time to come.

  • Scott St. Clair

    Let’s include all taxpayers irrespective of income, including those who pay no taxes now. And while we’re at it taxing corporations, let’s tax unions on their dues too.

    BTW…who taught you economics and business theory? Josef Stalin?

  • Scott St. Clair

    Let’s include all taxpayers irrespective of income, including those who pay no taxes now. And while we’re at it taxing corporations, let’s tax unions on their dues too.

    BTW…who taught you economics and business theory? Josef Stalin?

  • Scott St. Clair

    You know so much about my personal life? Wow! I like New York – as a city it has Seattle beat six ways to Sunday in every category. Maybe that’s why so many on this thread express delusional inferiority paranoia? Wannabe wannabes from wannabeville.

    And my beautiful bride, who is the reason I’m in Jersey, is a delight. She’s a senior executive in the cosmetics industry and loads of fun, thanks for asking.

  • Scott St. Clair

    My own five children all went to private school through junior high, something for which I made considerable sacrifices to do.

    What you fail to discuss is whether that “fair share” is fair or a rip off. I’m inclined to the latter since I believe bus riders should pay way more than they’re paying now – like the full ride. That’s fair – that they not grab into my pocket for their trip home. I don’t ask them to make any part of my car payments (except I paid cash for my 2009 Subaru when I bought it), so why should they ask me to pay a portion of their bus fare? Hmmm…???

  • http://jabailo.tumblr.com John Bailo

    The school metaphor is apt actually.

    We have public and private schools. 
    We have public and private transit.

    But we do not add “fees” to private schools to pay for public education.

    We use general taxes like property taxes in all instances to fund the public services like schools, libraries…transit!

    I am not against having a baseload of public services.   But I do not think that a private choice, in additional to costing the person money, should then also be taxed — that is double taxation.   The person is already paying  a tax for public transit (which he is not using when driving his car).

    This all comes down to politicians and citizens in Seattle, King and Washington, playing dumb, and passing the hot potato round and round and round.

    The real answer is in establishing a cost for all the services and covering it with a fair tax on assets and property.
    This is the way it should be done, not by yet another dog-eat-dog “fee” or an unjust sales, income or business tax.

    An asset tax is market driven…those who derive the most benefit, pay accordingly.

  • we got rights.

    the right to tax comes from our basic democratic rights, noted by Blackstone as being as fundamental as the righ tto bear arms — your right to majority rule in parliament is a guarantee of both (a) all other rights, and (b) you have means to counter the oppressive forces in society working against you.  So, when we elect folks democratically, they are empowered to enact taxes, and what makes it fair is the rights to elect them also free speech about it.  That’s why it’s fair johnboy.

    You have different policy ideas — fine.  But to ask “by what right does one group have to tax another group” shows you’re woefully and deliberately ignorant because we all know you’re smarter than that.  so cut the crap please.  we got  the right to enact taxes.  you don’t like it, fight it in the electoral system, but don’t go around whining “they got no right.”  You sound like a whiskey rebellion farmer.  

  • Scott St. Clair

    Oh – the suicide capitols of Europe.

    Did you know that Seattle is the suicide capitol of the U.S.? For obvious reasons, I’m sure you’ll agree.

    But did you hear about the suicidal guy who moved from Seattle to New York City, the murder capitol of the U.S. because he wasn’t much of a do-it-yourselfer?

    If those relatively small countries with no need for much of a defense budget but with growing and unsettling immigration  problems are so hot, why are you still here?

  • Rob

    It’s hell living in those Scandinavian countries with their socialized medicine and generous educational benefits and 8-week a year holidays.   I guess I will have to take your word that we have could have a Galtian Paradise with magic ponies if only we got rid of evil government. 

  • Bus Rider

    Hey Oiseaux, “hundreds of thousands of thousands of bus riding Seattleites”? Are you high or just stupid?

  • Grover

    Raise fares.  I gave you the solution.  Raise fares.

    Did that go right over your head?

  • Grover

    Mororists pay their own way, which means taxpayers do not have to provide us with transit service at absurd cost.

    What would the sales tax rate in King County be in order to provide transit service for the millions of people per day who currently pay for their own transporation in their own cars?

    How would you pay for roads if nobody drove cars, and nobody paid gas taxes, MVET’s, parking taxes and fees, and sales taxes on new and used vehicles, parts, repairs, maintenance, etc.?  How much tax revenue is generated each year from motorists, that people without cars do NOT pay?

    Your ignorance is phenomenal.

    Motorists pay for their own trips and pay for the roads.

    Bus riders pay for less than 1/4 of the cost of their trips, and pay nothing for the roads from their bus fares.

    Give us this information:  how much would it cost Metro to provide all the trips currently taken in private autos?  And how would you pay for that?

  • Grover

    Mororists pay their own way, which means taxpayers do not have to provide us with transit service at absurd cost.

    What would the sales tax rate in King County be in order to provide transit service for the millions of people per day who currently pay for their own transporation in their own cars?

    How would you pay for roads if nobody drove cars, and nobody paid gas taxes, MVET’s, parking taxes and fees, and sales taxes on new and used vehicles, parts, repairs, maintenance, etc.?  How much tax revenue is generated each year from motorists, that people without cars do NOT pay?

    Your ignorance is phenomenal.

    Motorists pay for their own trips and pay for the roads.

    Bus riders pay for less than 1/4 of the cost of their trips, and pay nothing for the roads from their bus fares.

    Give us this information:  how much would it cost Metro to provide all the trips currently taken in private autos?  And how would you pay for that?

  • Mantooth

    It’s spelled capital.  So much for that fancy private schooling.

  • Jakers

    Oh, by what you wrote above, you made it sound like the US was founded so that those with wealth could use the shared resources of our society to fuck everyone else over to get more rich.

  • Jakers

    Speaking of Stalin…I’m sure you would have loved the much-freer-than-the-US-market that occurred for a short period of time when the USSR fell. Now that was a free market.

  • Jakers

    Speaking of Stalin…I’m sure you would have loved the much-freer-than-the-US-market that occurred for a short period of time when the USSR fell. Now that was a free market.

  • Jakers

    Speaking of Stalin…I’m sure you would have loved the much-freer-than-the-US-market that occurred for a short period of time when the USSR fell. Now that was a free market.

  • Jakers

    Speaking of Stalin…I’m sure you would have loved the much-freer-than-the-US-market that occurred for a short period of time when the USSR fell. Now that was a free market.

  • Jakers

    St. Clair…doesn’t sound very American to me. Get the f outta here and go back to your country.

  • Jakers

    Oh hitting the spot of NYC…in other words, living in conservative new jersey but taking advantage of the more socialist NYC.

    That’s the kind of conservatism you promote. Libertarians want to take advantage of the hard work society has done to put together our great society and systems and let them fall into disrepair so that they can be taxed less now.

  • Mantooth

    I am a New York wannabe…New York has such wonderful mass transit.  What it must be like to live in or near a city that affords you the ability to very easily get from place to place without burning a hole in your wallet.  It’s an entitlement whore’s wet dream!

  • Jakers

    Can’t afford NYC on your hot executive girlfriend’s salary?

  • Jakers

    Society (namely the taxes paid by my grandparents) subsidizes your home mortgage. Without those people having paid their taxes, you’d never had the transparent marketplace that allows for your cheap mortgage rate. In other words, the government took money our of my grand parents pockets to create a system that now gives you cheap mortgage rates. So f you for taking advantage of those whose government stole money from years ago.

  • Jakers

    @Scott St. Clair believes he is entitled to use commonly owned resources for his own personal gain without having to pay for them. This kind of entitlement attitude makes me want to barf!

  • Scott St. Clair

    Free choices and taking advantage of lower prices is what competition is about. I’m sure you would agree. and since libertarians tend to be harder working and more entreprenuerial than collectivists who clump together in the vain hope of getting a gub’mint check for doing nothing, we make out just fine.

  • http://jabailo.tumblr.com John Bailo

    It’s a sign of a bad debater when he globalizes too much and puts words in the opponents mouth.

    You also ignore the very real rebuttal I made to oiseaux.

    But please, feel free to display more of your poor thought processes.

  • Monster

    my word all the liberal trash came out today. I for one salute Scott St. Clair even If it dont agree with all his views. I wonder if any of these homo’s killed them selves becuase they sure were up set…. taht being said time for everyone to pay more, raise fairs 50-75 cents pass the 20 dollar measure, no body wins, but we keep the system going.  Libs if you want nice things you got to pay for it. Bikers you are all next…..

  • A Concerned Parent

    Guys, I ride the bus to work so I can pay my federally mandated taxes and put food on the table. Does that make me lazy?

  • A Concerned Parent

    You do realize that paying 20 bucks a year for tabs can’t really be called a tax?

  • Monster

    i walk most of the time (such as out to eat and if i want a can of coke after work or school, you wouldnt belive how tasty Dim sum, pho, or tuta bella’s is after walking for 45 min) and drive when i really need things, usually to the factoria target. 

  • Monster

    yes.

  • A Concerned Parent

    My worst fears have come true.

  • Monster

    its ok you can fix it all by purchasing a Chevy Volt, only $50,000 dollars and move out to the suburbs, and eat at The Macaroni Grill! That will be your penance.

  • http://jabailo.tumblr.com John Bailo

    Give a guy an inch, and he thinks he’s a ruler.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    Who paid for the inspections on the food you ate today?  The air you breathed?  The roads you’ve driven on?  The schools you went to?

    Please.  Moron.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    Even people who earn so little that they don’t pay income tax do pay taxes – including the same car tab taxes everyone else does.

    And union dues *are* taxed – as income before the union member pays them as dues.

    BTW – who taught YOU economics and business theory?  Elmer Fudd?

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “If it’s the responsibility of election officials to listen, etc., then why did the four KC councilmembers not insist upon hearing from those opposed to bus subsidies? ”

    They did, you jackass.  There were people at that meeting opposed to the $20.00 fee who spoke as well.

    Damn, you’re stupid.  Post often.  Pretty please?

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    “Mororists pay their own way”

    (laughter)

    But seriously, folks.

    You really think that the taxes that motorists (most bus riders also own cars, by the way) pay for their own trips and for the roads without subsidy?

    Are you really that stupid?

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    What exactly do you do for a living again?

  • http://profiles.google.com/jeffw66seattle Jeff Welch

    When the services that taxes paid for are depending on a wildly fluctuating funding source like sales tax, when the economy takes a nosedive there are two choices: eliminate services or come up with other funding sources (i.e. fees) to keep them going.

    Which of course doesn’t stop people like you whining that when the money that pays for the things you use goes away you either don’t get to use them anymore or have to pony up a bit more to keep doing so.

  • Transit Rider

    Wow. It wasn’t that long ago that Scott St. Clair was the voice of reason in the local Republican Party. How times change.

  • not buying this

    replying to scott below:

    nice dodge again.  you get a home mortgage deduction, this is a subsidy to you pal, doesn’t matter how you paper over that conclusion.  tax break is real.  it’s not imaginary and you leave it out of your description — another willful omission a/k/a “lie.” 

    that subsidy to you, you like it.  it’s money in your pocket.  this subsidy came thru the democratic process of rule making about taxes.

    now notice how when it’s money in your pocket, you got no problem, but when the same process puts a tax on you, wow, you got a big problem.

    your little jab at me presuming my car was repo’d is funny.  another dodge.  this is the one called ad hominem attack, also known as throwing mud on the wall, as you don’t know me.  FYI the last five cars I ahve bought were all cash, my home mortgage loan interest is subsidized like everyone’s and my taxes are imposed on me like anyone I just don’t go around whining about it all the way you do picking and choosing what benefits you and ignoring that while moaning about what you have to pay. 

  • saintimonious greed at play

    but you suck up the subsidy you get on the home mortgage loan interest and disengenuously pretend it’s not there.

    how opportunistic.  how greedy.  how lacking in intellectual and moral honesty.

    to summarize:  tax subsidies coming through the democratic process — when they benefit s. st. c. he likes ‘em!  but he pretends they don’t exist!
    then he picks things like bus subsidies and calls them unfair, though they come through the same process.

    he saint.  how much was your tax savings due to the home mortgage loan interest deduction?  several thousand right?  what, your interest ws $15,000 and your marginal rate is about 30% so it was $5K in your pocket right?  So you take a $5K benefit and moan about paying a new $20 car fee to help busses.

  • Grover

    No, we are that intelligent.  Not stupid,like you.

    Do you think that bus riders pay their own way, when Metro’s farebox recovery rate is about 23%?  LOL  Bus riders are leeching off the taxpayers.

    Add up all the taxes, license fees, MVET”s, parking fees, and taxes, et. al. at all levels in WA state, and that totals more than the amount spent on roads.

    By the way, how much of the fares that bus riders pay goes to pay for the roads that buses use?  About zero?  Is that about right?

    Are you smart enough to answer that question?

    Since you can’t answer my question of how much it would cost to provide bus trips for everyone who currently drives a car, I’ll dumb it down just for you and ask a question that you may be smart enough to answer.

  • Johns

    The difference between the cost of the RFA and the amount paid for it is less than $4 million. Retracting it without introducing Proof-of-Payment a la Link would be catastrophic for downtown transit throughput. And it is a drop in the bucket for the overall situation. worth doing? yes. Solution? No.

    “everyone pay” sounds good – and I am as frustrated as the next person at watching someone make up a story on why they don’t have the $. Some may, some may not. Again, however, you’re not talking a significant amount of money based on Metro’s own data. And who’s going to enforce it? drivers can’t. If you hire security and/or police (again not a bad thing) will you make enough $$ back to pay for them?

    Finally, they  HAVE RAISED FARES 80% IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. It’s insane in a world facing peak oil and climate change to believe that raising transit fares is a relevant solution.

  • Johns

    but you’re assuming that riders per hour is the best metric. That would look great for packed suburban commuter routes, which conversely cost a lot of deadhead time because there’s no reverse demand. I don’t necessarily have a problem with your concept, but that’s the wrong metric, and also doesn’t take into account the other network issues (interlining, driver hours, and so on) that are involved with the system.

  • Anonymous

    No Mr. St. Clair, the theft was from the community by the likes of you and it is theft from the future generations that will inhabit this planet.  YOUR way of thinking is what is destroying this planet. 

    And here’s some food for thought.  The source of wealth and the end of wealth derives from the State as in the collective of our community.  You get to “create” wealth by “exploiting” OR “cooperating” (with) other humans. Without the collective of our community you are nothing but a sorry assed bag of water left in the wilderness to be preyed upon by forces you neither understand and are powerless to control.  So get off your crazy high horse thinking that you are master of your own domain because your own domain extends only as far as your nose. Everything that comes after that is by cooperation with or “exploitation” of others around you.  

    Our civilization has been built over many millennia both by exploitation AND by cooperation.  Our system of laws, the very notion of governance, has built this society.  Now, based on the fantasy writings of a deranged traumatized immigrant you have this dangerous philosophy being spread by those that simply want to exploit others that they are somehow magically responsible only to themselves.  We say uh uh. Nope. Not gonna happen.  If you want to try your crazy idea for living, go find yourself an uninhabited planet where you can try your experiment that will inevitably lead to extinction.  

    Those of us that are more progressive minded believe that the survival and betterment of our civilization depends on INCREASING cooperation among humans and DECREASING exploitation. 

  • Anonymous

    Grover, you’ve been debunked thoroughly on this issue time and time again.  Give it up.  MVET and gas taxes do not pay all of the costs of our road infrastructure. period! And given that because of the Eyeman racketeering by initiative we now pay a fraction of the MVET and licensing fees that we once payed, and as a consequence our roads are deteriorating. 

  • Anonymous

    Grover, you’ve been debunked thoroughly on this issue time and time again.  Give it up.  MVET and gas taxes do not pay all of the costs of our road infrastructure. period! And given that because of the Eyeman racketeering by initiative we now pay a fraction of the MVET and licensing fees that we once payed, and as a consequence our roads are deteriorating. 

  • Anonymous

    John, YOU and the rest of us ARE the State. It is because we’ve chosen to COOPERATE that we’ve built this country into what it is today.  Your Randian philosophy is the dangerous and will be the destruction of this country. 

  • Anonymous

    Hey Bus Rider, can you read, or are you just stupid?

    If you are going to quote, try quoting correctly. Thanks pal. :)

    Also, yep. I would wager to say that at least 100,000 people in Seattle ride the bus considering 50,000 people a day access One Bus Away, and all (and a ton of people still don’t even know about OBA)…

  • Anonymous

    Hey Bus Rider, can you read, or are you just stupid?

    If you are going to quote, try quoting correctly. Thanks pal. :)

    Also, yep. I would wager to say that at least 100,000 people in Seattle ride the bus considering 50,000 people a day access One Bus Away, and all (and a ton of people still don’t even know about OBA)…

  • Anonymous

    I’m fully cognizant of what I’m asking for. Mr. St. Cloud and his ilk cannot choose to live in a vacuum. They can’t get something for nothing.

  • Gomez

    Libertarian troll is libertarian.