How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love My $81 ORCA Card

Glad to hear you still like your ORCA card, Erica. Much as I approve of the conclusions you’ve come to, I have to pick a small nit with the AAA study on auto ownership costs. Looking at their numbers, I believe they are calculating costs for a new or nearly-new car.

I suspect ownership costs for a 10-year-old Subaru, for example, one you could pick up locally for $6K or so, would be much less. I know there are a lot of people that you and I would call poor who drive around in a lot of older cars, and they sure aren’t paying 47 cents/mile for owning and operating those vehicles.

Interesting analysis. Tell me again why this isn’t tagged as Opinion?

I’m fortunate that I’m in a position where it doesn’t matter that much to me right now. But poor people without cars don’t get a choice. They just get more expenses and less disposable income. Lost in the fare hikes discussion is the fact that bus fares are probably more regressive than sales taxes.

Because they want you to believe they are “journalists” and afford them the respect that word used to hold. As you, correctly, point out these “journalists” opine more than report.

$81 isn’t really that much if you consider other transportation options. Car insurance alone is often $100+ / mo., in addition to car loans, gas, maintenance fees, and monthly parking fees. I use the bus / Zipcar combination as well and it solves nearly all of my transportation needs.

In a city like Seattle, using the bus is actually more freeing than a car because I don’t need to worry over parking or horrendous traffic. Using the bus isn’t just for poor people, though I understand the cost concern. Then again, if everyone used the bus they’d have more money…

$6k? If you go to a reputable lot and take someone extremely car-savvy with you, you can make out a hell of a lot better than that. When I buy again in 1-3 years as we’re planning, I’m gunning for a <$2-$3k small beater for in-city use that would last fine if you are gentle on it. If we go up to the mountains 1-2 times per year or out to the peninsula, that's what the car pool or rental is for.

I was just trying to put myself in Erica’s shoes, Joe. My guess was that she would not be OK with a $2-3K beater, but rather a notch or two above.

Surely journalists wouldn’t go for less than a BMW 7-series.

The equation all depends. I already have a 15 year old car. I don’t have an Orca card and when I do take the bus, the one I most want is often not running (60 stops too early for my lifestyle). I rode my last bus Saturday night because for my situation, the equation adds up to: I walk to the bar, even though it’s 2.5 miles away.

You’d have to be a drooling zombie if the best you can do is $541 a month to own and operate a car. Any fool can buy, insure, repair and fuel a decent car for no more than $200 a month. Half that if you make your business to know what you’re doing. And that’s not even settling for the kind of beaters and hoopties I drove in college.

Erica, did you not notice, right at the top of the study it says their numbers are
actually based on the “average AAA member” — NOT the average American.

Here’s my first rule for being a frugal automobile owner: you don’t need to be paying for a fucking AAA membership like some 55 year old Bellevue orthodontist?

For a truly accurate calculation, one would also need to put a price tag on one’s time. Please don’t jump all over me, I’m a bus/rail rider too – albeit a more conflicted one than Erica is – but I also have some background in economics. It takes longer to get from Columbia City to Ballard (e.g.) by bus than it does by car. I think we can agree that most people, even if they are content to read or to listen to music on the bus, would rather get done whatever is taking them to Ballard in the first place and then move on to the next commitment or errand. That is much less possible when Metro is the constraint.

Some models might also factor in a convenience cost – if you have to lug three heavy bags of groceries on the bus, how much would you pay not to have to be lugging them, instead to have them tucked into your trunk? If it’s cold and raining and the bus stop where you will change buses has no shelter, how much would you pay to be warm and dry? Etc. For me there is also a safety cost. I am female and many’s the time I’ve opted for a taxi rather than the 7 bus home on a Saturday night because on the bus I am at risk from events ranging from harassment to purse-snatching (it happened once and believe me I’d have paid a lot for it not to have). All of which is to say that such apples-to-apples “true cost” comparisons as this, especially when presented by someone with a personal ax to grind, are often rather fatuous.

** the gas tax is a dwindling tax source. the better option is to create new funding exclusively for transit, and constitutionally restrict its use to transit, bicycle and pedestrian funding, rather than for highways.

To be completely fair, it looks like AAA is taking that new car’s value over 10 years. A used car may not last that long (so at least double your $6k) plus would need more work done. This gets complex to calculate, which is probably the reason for keeping it simple with a new car.

Keep in mind these estimates might actually be low, as they don’t include: parking*, tickets, parking tickets, the cost of your garage, the cost of an accident…

* assuming you pay $10 a day like I do when I have to drive in, that’s $2,600 a year right there. though likely less if you can find a good monthly rate.

I think these things also don’t take into consideration regional conditions or even city-based ones, for things like insurance. When I had a car under payments I had to maintain full everything-coverage, including comprehensive. My insurance was about $140 a month, plus $200 a month in payments, out in the suburbs. When I moved to New Haven CT, my monthly insurance rose to almost $200, due to the increased theft risk. My Seattle rate had a similar spike.

Someone else talked about that a while back, and I ran a full comparison of Seattle vs. suburbs/eurbs throughout the region. At least for our region, your rate is your rate. But then I haven’t been to New Haven (but don’t get me started about New London – that could have been a beautiful town if they hadn’t run a highway right through it).

heh, you’ve seen the state of transit in CT, right? Unless you’re commuting directly on the Metro North train corridor or the train line that runs to Providence and Boston, it’s total shit. But given the decentralized nature of the whole place, what can you do? Its been that way 300 years.

Right. A “fare tax.” You ride transit, you pay for it. Such a concept.

While I think the AAA figures for car ownership are indeed total BS, as the proud driver of older (some MUCH older) vehicles the annual $90 membership fee gets you three free tows, and is money well spent!

Except that since most people own cars and really need to own cars* you have to look not at the total cost of car ownership, but the per trip cost. Very often for me the bus is neither economically or time efficient on that measure. Heading downtown in the evening or on a Sunday for example costs me maybe a buck in gas, compared to over 4 bucks for a bus ride. The only real benefit is when I am going out to drink I don’t have to worry about my car, but a cab home is not all that much more.

Now I have an annual bus pass, so the bus is always cheaper given that I’ve already bought the pas, but it is becoming less and less useful especially given that I can put some money on my ORCA and get the main benefit it gives, that of not having to find change. I probably won’t renew it. With service getting worse riding the bus is just too much of a hassle to justify the cost of an annual pass and I don’t take near the trips necessary to warrant the cost.

* I pay nowhere near 6k a year in car expenses. I’ve had the same car for near ten years, paid cash for it, and probably spend a couple hundred bucks a month tops in gas, insurance, and maintenance. Maybe 300 when I am doing a lot of driving. Probably another 1000 a year in depreciation tops.

Transit is a social service and we live in something called a society.

“what can you do?”
1. Remove restrictive zoning and densify
2. Don’t let the state build a highway right through your downtown.

The trick is not to even need transit by living close to your job. Where are people in New London commuting to anyway – Boston? Uugh.

“Its been that way 300 years.” Nah. You can tell it used to be beautiful, mainly by the old buildings that are still around. It’s only our modern car culture that’s killed the place.

That’s also a factor worth considering when choosing a new home. A home farther from the city center, workplace, school, etc., will require more time in transit no matter what you use to get there. It’s one reason I consider south end neighborhoods and West Seattle housing overrated. Even if you discount the distance from Downtown, everything in these hoods is so spread out and getting somewhere whether by bus, no foot or by vehicle is a bigger, more time consuming pain than in a Capitol Hill, Wallingford, Ravenna or Ballard.

If you are using your 3 tows a year, you were a little bit too frugal in picking your used car. The one I bought 4 years ago has required 0 tows so far. Knock wood. I’d have wasted my $360 if I’d had AAA.

You’d be surprised, man — I still know people that live up and down the CT shore communities that commute to NYC daily, Providence to Boston, New London to Stamford, Bridgeport to Hartford, all sorts of crazy stuff because people want to live close by family and friends or near certain amenities. I used to commute New Haven to north Trumbull, which on maps is 30-35 minutes, but that’s only with perfect traffic. 45-50 more likely. 1-2 hours in the snow. I could have moved much closer but preferred living in the city rather than someplace more suburban. And sure, Bridgeport was right there, but it was a crappy place that I grew up in. People sometimes just want to live a certain place, and sometimes your job is what it is.

I have more than one vehicle. Some years, I use the tow(s), some years, I don’t – but if I’m more than 10 miles from home when I need it even 1 tow every other year basically pays for itself.

Since when is moving Erica around between her home and her work, and play, a “social service”? Is Erica’s home a “social service” also, that taxpayers should pay for? What about her food — is that a “social service” that everyone should pay for? Or, should she pay for her own food and housing? Why shouldn’t Erica pay for her own transportation?

Yes, AAA doesn’t include parking tickets, but then comparable transit costs don’t include Fare Inspector penalties for riding Link without tapping your ORCA card…ahem….

Since when is Erica the only one who rides the bus?

She does. But you pay for access to that system. Transit isn’t a members-only system like, say, Microsoft’s bus system. We all pay, and for that we all can ride when we need it. Not to mention the reduced traffic for car drivers.

If you’ll recall the kerfluffle over Monorail MVETs, you might recall that many, many people in Seattle don’t drive old beat up cars. In fact, the big complaint was getting charged for a car they perhaps don’t drive often.

The average suggested by AAA may be high, but arguments about commuting by car vs. transit presume that the driver has a car that has to go to/from work at least 7,500 miles a year. That’s not including additional non-work uses. With media sources now predicting $4.00/gallon at the pump by this summer, your costs add up quickly.

No one questions that any person in particular may be able to easily beat the average. That’s why it’s an average. But even a “cheap” $2,500-3,000 a year is double what Erica says she’s paying to bike, bus, and ZipCar.

Not to mention not having to change a flat on a 3/4 ton full-sized van in the rain with the factory jack…..

I’m cool with transit users paying for all transit when drivers pay for all costs associated with oil extraction, road construction, health care associted with accidents and pollution, loss of open space to mining of resources and construciton of roads and parking lots, “free” parking provided on neighborhood streets, etc. I’m guessing that starts to come out around $1/gallon on gas plus $1/10 pounds of car weight each year.

We can all ride, but everyone should pay the full cost of their trip, instead of sponging off the taxpayers.

This is such a stupid “argument.” Transit also uses “oil extraction, road construction, health care associated with accidents and pollution, loss of open space to mining of resources and construction of roads, etc.”

Drivers pay for streets with taxes and fees, which transit users do not pay. Erica pays no gas tax or sales tax or MVET, or license fees when she pays for her ORCA card, does she? She also pays no parking fees, parking taxes or parking fines when she uses transit, now does she? lol

$72 is edging up towards the cost of a car payment for a good used car.

All those “transit” riders that your taxes subsidize are keeping you out of that cute new Kia you’ve been dreaming off…

you hve to look at value as well as cost. value of time, not being cold, having your personal space; people spending 10 or $15K a year on cars likely find….it’s well worth it.

what is the value of calling up your main squeeze at 10 pm and saying hey babe drive over here, let’s get it on? what is the value of leaving your home in greenwood at 8:45 pm to hit a band in georgetown at 9:30 pm?

Not driving a car is cheaper; but you do less stuff.

you hve to look at value as well as cost. value of time, not being cold, having your personal space; people spending 10 or $15K a year on cars likely find….it’s well worth it.

what is the value of calling up your main squeeze at 10 pm and saying hey babe drive over here, let’s get it on? what is the value of leaving your home in greenwood at 8:45 pm to hit a band in georgetown at 9:30 pm?

Not driving a car is cheaper; but you do less stuff.

IDK why no one expounds on the beauty of scooters. 100mpg, low start cost, and maintenance is minimal. I know poor people can afford those. When it rains, slap on a cheap rain suit and your good to go. They tuck anywhere, so you park for free.

My company gives me a free ORCA card…that I don’t use. Buses are slow and inconvenient, and often jammed full. Blech.

Maybe Erica should move close enough to work so she could walk and doesn’t have such a terrible choice to make, and we do not have to build more more infrastructure for a bus or car.

I thought you were a tunnel supporter, Master Baker.

She’s making those tough choices. She’s doing the work.
She’s riding the walk.

What’s our excuse?

Erica, I read once that you own a Vespa motor scooter. Do you ever ride it? I have a 2007 Vespa GTS that gets 75 mpg and complies with California emissions standards. And it costs way less than $81/month to run.

The issue in the rain is not the lack of cover. It’s the safety risk of two wheels, wet ground, other vehicles and absolutely no cover in an accident. Even motorcyclists stay out of the rain.

My brother (our family) owned a Vespa in the mid-seventies. They were mo-peds then.

Since then, I’ve come to the conclusion that a Honda Nighthawk 250 is a better ride. And one just has to take the course to fall into something that is real transportation, rather than a compromise.

If somebody has a better idea, I’m certainly open.
But this is an adult-sized bike, a frugal bike, a bike with a history.
The engine has been around forever. Parts are easy to find.

I’m going to buy one unless somebody can talk me out of it.
Really, I don’t want a tiny crotch-rocket, or a tiny easy-rider, or a tiny GoldWing. I want transportation.

My brother (our family) owned a Vespa in the mid-seventies. They were mo-peds then.

Since then, I’ve come to the conclusion that a Honda Nighthawk 250 is a better ride. And one just has to take the course to fall into something that is real transportation, rather than a compromise.

If somebody has a better idea, I’m certainly open.
But this is an adult-sized bike, a frugal bike, a bike with a history.
The engine has been around forever. Parts are easy to find.

I’m going to buy one unless somebody can talk me out of it.
Really, I don’t want a tiny crotch-rocket, or a tiny easy-rider, or a tiny GoldWing. I want transportation.

You pay $10 per day in downtown Seattle? That’s a lot less than the city’s new $4 per hour top rate, isn’t it? I thought the city was going to charge “market rates” to park on the street, not 4 times the market rate.

Metro eliminated my bus schedule and route after I specifically purchased a home within walking distance to the bus stop, and after I donated my car to KUOW.
Now I own a car, thanks Metro!

Walked the walk and it simply did not matter which choice I made, or for which reason.
I have rearranged my schedule so I can telecommute about 1 day a week.
That’s my “excuse”.

Yeah, I lost my stop across the street to the “efficiency” people.

So I started driving my $500 Corolla.
It made more sense.

We run an old beater (mid 80s Volvo) for about $4k/yr. <5K miles/yr. i.e., pushing a buck a mile. I think that's about as low as you can get between the capital cost and tradeoff of higher repairs for an older car.

Norman, for anyone to take your arguments seriously, you need to provide evidence. For instance, you love to deny that drivers’ externalized costs are subsidized by society as a whole, yet never explain how or provide any numbers. Do the assorted taxes and fees “easily” cover the costs of car dependency? How should I know, since you never actually provide any details.

Nannies must get from unicorporated King County somehow so McMansion moms can golf.

It’s right here in the City of Covington municipal code (by “DEPENDENT PERSON”, they mean trophy wife with tee time ,

Chapter 9.55
ABANDONMENT OF DEPENDENT PERSON

Sections:
9.55.005 –
9.55.030    Statutes adopted.
9.55.005 Statutes adopted.
Revised Code of Washington provisions, as presently constituted or hereinafter amended, are adopted by reference and are given respective section numbers as set forth in this chapter.
http://www.codepublishing.com/wa/covington/

The AAA estimates are for new cars only, with depreciation over the first five years. Most people drive cars over 5 years old, with much lower depreciation.

According to Kelley Blue Book, my 2001 Ford would be worth $2,155 today with 150K miles on it. Last year, with 135,000K miles it would have been worth $2,370. That is $215 depreciation in one year. AAA uses $3,554/year depreciation. My insurance is $600/yr; AAA uses $1,031/yr. My license/registration/tax is under $100/yr; AAA uses $585/yr.

My total “ownership cost”: $915/yr; AAA uses $5,976/yr. So, the actual ownership cost for my car last year was about $76 per month. Then, using AAA’s figures, my “operating costs” are about 14 cents/mile, when I drive alone, or 7 cents/mile for each of us when I have one passenger.

Steven Wright said of trophy wives:
“Apparently it wasn’t first place…”

“leaving your home in greenwood at 8:45 pm to hit a band in georgetown at 9:30 pm” is exactly what is ‘driving’ us off the global warming cliff. We should be calculating moving around in grams of carbon per mile, not dollars. And if we don’t figure out a way to get the number way down, we’re all going to be toasted while you have your fun. We need to live (and work) closer to home.

Goddamn right! Next time I’m out with my friends and we’re at dinner at Charlies on Broadway, and one of them says, “Guys, lets go to the Cinerama for the last show,” I will tell them, “I can go, as my calculated route from Charlies to the Cinerama to home is approximately a straight line, so it’s on the way, but you all will have to come back to the Hill, so you cannot go. I will go alone for Earth. And we’re all walking, bitches!”

I don’t pay car payments, I don’t get parking tickets, I get a good insurance rate because I don’t get speeding tickets, and I drive about 9,000 miles a year. My total costs for my car are about $2,000, including gas at $3.20 a gallon. That’s $166/month, compared to $81 for an ORCA card. And definitely journalists don’t make much, but a $9/month raise is about 3 lattes. So I don’t see either of Erica’s points.

When I bought my 2001 Ford in 2004, when it was 3 years old, I paid $5,525, plus sales tax of $486 (the sales tax rate was “only” 8.8% back then). So, I paid $486 in sales tax on my car, which went into the general funds of the city, county and state.

How much did you pay in sales tax on your ORCA card, Erica? Approximately ZERO? NADA? ZILCH? How much did you contribute to the general funds of our city, county and state when you bought your ORCA card? NOTHING???

You are just mooching off the taxpayers.

(sigh) The market rate for 2 hours in the city is different than an all day rate. This is an “early bird special”, which is one of the tricks parking lots use to try to get commuters to park in their lots to fill up spots that would have otherwise been empty. I believe hourly parking on my lot is around $8. But I’ll check next time for you.

Yes. And we should all pay for roads as we need them. And cops should charge by the hour and severity of incident. And there should be a membership fee for firefighters…

We’ve had this discussion what, 20 times now? We get it – you’re teabagger and think that everyone is stealing your money.

Ha ha, very funny. Enjoy it while you can. Maybe when gas is $50/gallon out of your pocket (somewhere closer to its true cost, with externalities internalized) you will be walking too. And we’ll all be figuring out a better way. Horses, maybe. Or electric mopeds.

You know very well that she’s contributing much more than you and I are.

But I understand you, as a fellow shithead.

this whole thread is moot if your time is worth more than sitting on buses all day. Judging by the people around here, most people’s time isn’t worth that much. MY car costs are a tiny fraction of my income.

Enjoy the bus po’ people!

No kids right?

Here’s why anyone under 30 shouldn’t use a bus: I never got a blow job while riding one but got plenty in my youth in my ol’ gas guzzlin’ 63 T-bird.

So you can afford a $500k home?

Great….now where do you put your kids?

Where do you put the spouse and kids?

Let’s see, paid cash for a 5 yr old Japanese car popular with thespians, zero maintenance in the 3 yrs I’ve own it other than oil changes, $50 a month for insurance, $50 a month for gas (I live in the city), driveway parking for 2 cars at our home in Ballard, ability to take two kids to two schools in no time, free parking at work and I can go anywhere, anytime in any weather in less than half the time of the bus…..oh, and if Mrs. Snoop wants to relive our youth and the kids aren’t around, I can get a blowjob.

Let me think about the bus for a second…..ok, no thanks, still just for po’ people and fauxhemians (white poeple thinking they are doing something good but are in fact simply young, childless, and still low income earners).

Seattle has horrendous traffic? It takes me 15-20 mins for me to commute downtown, door to door from my home. Get to listen to NPR, sip on a latte and pass cyclists in the rain.

Global warming is the last reason people will give up cars.

What about electric cars or do they not fit into your car-hating meme?

Please not horses. Cows are a strong contributor to global warming.

The pain of a motorcycle is all the gear you have to wear to ride (well, as with dealing with bad weather, but that goes for a scooter too). I justify not wearing leather on a scooter because I’m limited to city streets at around bicycle speeds (not really – my Bajaj can go 60 if I pushed it, but I don’t). But I think it all depends on your commute. My wife rode a standard motorcycle for years when we were in the SF bay area, just to be able to use the carpool lanes.

Let’s do some more math. Taking the bus everyday would add at least 1 hr to my commute. This doesn’t even include getting kids to school, weekends using buses, dinners, movies. For JUST my work commute, that would be 20 hours a month.

Car costs for me are about $50 gas, $50 insurance, maybe $100 a month depreciation (I’m being generous since it’s a used car). THat’s $200/month.

So taking the bus would save me $120 but cost be 20 hrs. That’s $5/hr.

Now maybe if I was a barista, Kinko’s Monkey, hobo, crack head or writer on some low traffic, local blog that would be a good investment. But for anyone making decent money, you have to be fucking kidding…..

Oh that’s right, I supposed to be saving the planet! THanks for the laugh. Carry on.

At worst, no more than the average Seattlite overestimates their ability to afford a $300K home and a long commute.

typical enviro fun hatin’. Here’s the deal pal: fun is good. DRiving to community college in Bellevue is good. Seeing your aunti in magnolia is good, choices are good, mobility is good, this has economic value. Second point: it’s snobby to tell folks driving cars they are irrational or immoral. Third point: As one who supports massive investment in transit including a full train system that would take me to georgetown from greenwood late at night, as one who supports massive upzoning, as one who supports counting carbon and reducing emissions, I say it’s folks like you who scold and have this attitude that there is no cost to time and there is no cost to giving up mobility who help the environmental side LOSE THE POLITICAL BATTLE.

Get real, don’t be a scold, have some fun, okay?

typical enviro fun hatin’. Here’s the deal pal: fun is good. DRiving to community college in Bellevue is good. Seeing your aunti in magnolia is good, choices are good, mobility is good, this has economic value. Second point: it’s snobby to tell folks driving cars they are irrational or immoral. Third point: As one who supports massive investment in transit including a full train system that would take me to georgetown from greenwood late at night, as one who supports massive upzoning, as one who supports counting carbon and reducing emissions, I say it’s folks like you who scold and have this attitude that there is no cost to time and there is no cost to giving up mobility who help the environmental side LOSE THE POLITICAL BATTLE.

Get real, don’t be a scold, have some fun, okay?

Sorry, Grover, but drivers do NOt pay for their streets with taxes and fees. Seattle voters had to pass a property tax increase (“Bridging The Gap”) to raise enough money to finally get to work on long over-due street and bridge repair.

I don’t know where this myth began, that drivers pay the cost of their infrastructure, but the truth needs to come out. Our entire roadway system encompasses hundreds of square miles of real estate, land that pays not one cent in property taxes.

The bus works for some people, not everybody. I don’t know of many commutes where it would take you an entire extra hour to take the bus, but it sounds like it’s not a good choice for you. So what? Why the hate?

It doesn’t work for most people. I know liberals think people are stupid and make stupid choices, but owning a car does, in fact, make perfectly good economic sense if you value no just your productivity and time, but also your freedom, independence and the occasional blow job (I’m speaking to the under-30 crowd there).

No, owning a car is stupid if you are po’, which probably explains why I see so many po’ folks driving. Anything urbanists can do to price them out of my way, would be greatly appreciated.

What? Aren’t you excited that the voters approved the Transit Now ballot measure so we could pay more, get less service, all so we could have some of the highest paid bus drivers in the country? Erica, if the rumor of six figure incomes for journalists is untrue, just apply to Metro. They have quite a few people making that lofty six figure income.

Yay progressivism!!!!

“I don’t know of many commutes where it would take you an entire extra hour to take the bus”

Ballard to downtown; at least 30 minutes more each way, sometimes even more because the buses are so unreliable in the evening. Better to pay those exorbitant Metro drivers salaries (higher than NYC and SF!) than have enough buses, yeah unions!

“I don’t know of many commutes where it would take you an entire extra hour to take the bus”

Ballard to downtown; at least 30 minutes more each way, sometimes even more because the buses are so unreliable in the evening. Better to pay those exorbitant Metro drivers salaries (higher than NYC and SF!) than have enough buses, yeah unions!

Grrr… my comment was lost (what’s up with that, ‘cola?).

I’m confused how if it takes 24 minutes on the 15E from 45th to the federal buildings on the south side of downtown, this can possibly take “30 minutes more each way”. 24 minutes isn’t much slower than driving, and is probably a bit faster than driving and parking.

Asking Sightline about transportation is like asking OneAmerica about illegal immigration.

That’s assuming

1. I live at a bus stop and work at a bus stop

2. When I get to bus stop, the bus arrives on time; the few months I tried to take the bus, it was on time maybe 30% of the time. Coming home it was never on time, often 15-30 minutes late and that was the express bus.

3. There won’t be any 300lb ‘disabled’ people who take 10 minutes to huff and puff on the bus.

So easily an hour saved each day. Probably more.

I know, I know, all that walking is good for me but you know what, I’d rather spend my weekends hiking with my kids than wasting it on Metro’s shitty service. Besides, I weigh the same I did in 1990; good genes and good diet I guess.

“Riding the bus is still a great deal compared to owning a car.”

Only if your time costs nothing.

As I said, buses don’t work for everyone. If it really takes you half an hour of walking in each direction, then the bus may not be for you. I take the 15/18 almost every day and don’t think they’re late. But then they come frequently enough I don’t worry about schedule – they each come about every 15 minutes, so I wait an average of about 3 minutes for a ride.

“that she’s contributing much more than you and I are”

Really? You know ECB’s total productivity and contribution to the economy? We all know what she’s taken away from the economy, but since when has simply wasting time on a bus been productive?

Publicola has a GDP at least on par with those of smaller nations.

It’s not just me, they don’t work for the majority of commuters.

Exactly, hence the high numbers of crack heads, baby mamas, over weight…..sorry ‘disabled’ people, po’ people and high minded, college educated white liberals.

Sure, but then “most commuters” live out in sprawl, not in Ballard. But that aside, why all of the hate?

I concur with Matt; why all the anger? Sad to see how many “likes” there are for your bilious rants against liberals and poor people. Gee, he said “blow job”, how cute. Actually, it’s pathetic.

As for content; the point many of us “hate cars” people are trying to make is that as a society we have developed/chosen a way of life that encourages harmful waste (carbon spewing cars and the awful land use patterns that result). It is difficult to go car free, even if we want to. I shouldn’t have to move to Belltown or Manhattan to do so.

By the way, I agree that the bus service should be better and cost less. But that would require higher taxes for everyone. I.e., a shift in transportation costs from cars to transit. Until more people want it to happen, aint’ gonna.

” he said “blow job”, how cute. Actually, it’s pathetic.”

Ever gotten one on a Schwinn?

Oh I see, you think we should stop using cars to save the planet.

I, and about a 1.3 billion Chinese and another billion Indians, who are dreaming of increasing their CO2 emissions with TVs, fridges, computers, DVD players and CARS, are having a good laugh.

I don’t hate cars per se. I dislike the adverse impacts they have on peoples’ health, land use, global warming, etc. All forms of transportation need to be compared fairly for their impacts (carbon per mile, acres/% of urban environment dedicated, etc.). If electric cars can be shown to be “greener” than other methods, fine with me. I believe dense transit networks with electric cars supplementing them will be the most efficient.

People need mobility to work, play, eat, etc. But there are too many of us to continue a non-sustainable (yes, the overused word really does have meaning) high carbon energy life style.

Remember, buses are just as good as Rail, AND CHEAPER!

Guilty as charged; sometimes I can be a scold. On the other hand, you should be less defensive. I can assure you pal, I like to have fun as much as anyone.

Responding to the rest of your points: When it becomes too expensive to visit aunti in Magnolia (or the job in Renton) how about moving them closer to each other? Or making the transit system work better? I am not telling people they are being irrational or immoral; I am saying that the infrastructure(s) and governance structure(s) we have created are irrational by not choosing the most efficient and life affirming options, and by having immoral impacts on the world and our descendants.

More to the point: everything in life is not monetary. Especially time. I am not saying “there is no cost to time.” I am saying we need to figure out the real cost of how we spend our time. I am not saying don’t have fun. I am saying we need to figure out how to have fun that doesn’t involve spending so much capital. Fun does not mean having to burn carbon; “the best things in life are free.” Ask Snoop about his blow jobs.

People have the most amazing ability to ignore and deny unpleasant realities. It’s that truth that drives some (like me!) to be scolds. And I know it doesn’t work. The environmental side will lose the environmental because “Global warming is the last reason people will give up cars.” (Snoop comment above) Until that attitude changes we are indeed lost. (From a recent study: “Though scientific evidence for the existence of global warming continues to mount, in the U.S. and other countries belief in global warming has stagnated or even decreased in recent years. One possible explanation for this pattern is that information about the potentially dire consequences of global warming threatens deeply held beliefs that the world is just, orderly, and stable. Individuals overcome this threat by denying or discounting the existence of global warming, ultimately resulting in decreased willingness to counteract climate change.” Feinberg & Willer 2010)

p.s. Your support for “massive upzoning”; what, you want Manhattan in Seattle? Do you agree there are limits to growth? If so, what are they? Do you think we can continue to “massively upzone” indefinitely?

You raise above one of the issues that I think is a major factor in auto use and traffic on our roads…

Would you still drive if you didn’t have free parking at work? For a large percentage of folks, I suspect driving is the more affordable and convenient options (especially into Seattle or Bellevue) because they have free parking provided.

I won’t go into a long diatribe about the cost of parking spaces and the wasted land use; you can find that elsewhere. I just thought I’d raise an interesting point. If it cost $81 or more per month to park at work, would folks be more likely to consider transit?

You are getting about 14.4 MPG according to your figures (assuming entire $2000 is gas–closer to 20mpg is much of it is insurance). That’s about 22¢/mile at current prices. If your insurance is $100/month, that’s another 14¢/mile (or less if you get a single person etc rate), total c. 36¢/mile. One transmission job, or one brake job and one water pump, and that number will approach 50¢, still cheap even with the mediocre mileage. True cost to society is way more and is not being accounted for.

“Ever gotten one on a Schwinn?”
Neither you nor anyone else reading this gives a damn.
“Oh I see, you think we should stop using cars to save the planet.”
That’s not what I said. I said we need to figure out sustainable means of transportation (and all other economic activites) or we’re in deep doo doo. Or don’t you believe global warming and the consequences for the ecosystem are real?
“I, and about a 1.3 billion Chinese and another billion Indians, who are dreaming of increasing their CO2 emissions with TVs, fridges, computers, DVD players and CARS, are having a good laugh.”
As I said above, having fun (“a good laugh”) is irrelevant. It’s whether the 8 or so billion of us will still be laughing mid century after four more decades of BAU (business as usual). ha ha

Must be terrible to be you, all the worries of the world on your shoulders.

Here’s a news alert: the number one cause of CO2 emissions is the creation of wealth. Unless you can convince about half the world’s population to learn to live with the CO2 footprint of a 40 watt light bulb, you ain’t gonna stop CO2 emissions from growing. So buy on high land and don’t listen to the alarmists and assume the best from humanity to adapt.

Bangladesh was a shit-hole long before global warming along; trust me, I’ve been there.

“Neither you nor anyone else reading this gives a damn.”

Oh, I give a damn. Young kids need to know what they’re giving up by abandoning cars for buses. I mean, unless they date ho’s, they’ll never get a blowjob on a bus.

Just sayin’

Well, at the risk of getting a post removed: I think you’re crude, you’re a jerk, and you’re attitude sucks. No point in further dialogue as far as I’m concerned.

” I think you’re crude”

I guess you don’t appreciate that great American right of passage: a blow job while driving.

Enjoy the ‘bus’.

So you’d support tolling all highways?

She contributes $81 a month to King County Metro’s funds.

Erica, I can never pass up the opportunity to provide some comparisons between the price of Metro and the price of transit systems that, y’know, actually work…

Metro (off-peak): $81/month, pay an extra quarter anywhere near rush hour
Metro (peak): $90/month
New York City: $89/month
San Francisco: $60/month for MUNI only, add $10 for BART access within city limits
Boston: $59/month

So yes, commuters in Seattle now pay more than New Yorkers do. (It’s totally just as good, right?)

And we pay 53% more than Bostonians (whose passes also grant access to certain commuter rail lines and inner-harbor ferries; ours won’t even get you on the West Seattle Water Taxi without a surcharge).

Metro is grossly sub-par. There is simply no excuse for charging more for sub-par than for par… or for defending it, or for taking it lying down.

Any fool? Hmm:

- As a young male who is less than 25 years old, I would be shocked if I could get insurance for less than $150 a month.

- I’m currently renting out my apartment’s included parking space for $100 a month. With a car, I obviously couldn’t do that.

So even assuming *zero cost* for the car, gas, or anything else, I’m already at $250.

Now, let’s assume that my car was getting 35 MPG (seems about reasonable for a beat-up Civic, which is the best I could hope for in a free car). My commute is about 30 miles round-trip. If I assume that I work 250 days per year, and that gas is $3/gallon, that comes out to about $650/year, or about $54/month.

So now I’m at $300/month. And that’s still assuming that I’m driving a free car that never needs maintenance, and that I never drive anywhere other than to and from work.

I guess I’m somewhere between a fool and a drooling zombie, huh?

What route, and when was it eliminated?

What route, and when was it eliminated?

What route, and when was it eliminated?

What route, and when was it eliminated?

I assume that you have similar objections to the fact that sales tax is not charged on gasoline, car insurance, license/registration fees, tolls, parking, and parking tickets.

I assume that you have similar objections to the fact that sales tax is not charged on gasoline, car insurance, license/registration fees, tolls, parking, and parking tickets.

I assume that you have similar objections to the fact that sales tax is not charged on gasoline, car insurance, license/registration fees, tolls, parking, and parking tickets.

I assume that you have similar objections to the fact that sales tax is not charged on gasoline, car insurance, license/registration fees, tolls, parking, and parking tickets.

I assume that you have similar objections to the fact that sales tax is not charged on gasoline, car insurance, license/registration fees, tolls, parking, and parking tickets.

For my part, my apartment comes with a parking space that I rent out for $100/month. That’s more than a transit pass right there, even without the car.

For my commute to work the bus is faster than driving. It is cheaper too since I’m not paying for parking and my employer gives me an annual pass.

I arrive at work more relaxed because rather than fight stop and go traffic I sit back and read or get a head start on work.

Seattle’s break-even rate is fixed at 36 rides per month for all passes.

In Boston, $59/month is for a local pass. An Inner Express pass costs $89/month — and there are definitely some Metro-only expresses which are as long as some of the Boston inner expresses. An Outer Express pass costs $129/month, and there are definitely some ST routes which are as long as some of the outer express buses in Boston. For all of these passes, the break-even rate is approximately 32 trips per month.

In New York, a local-only pass costs $104/mo (not sure where you got your $89 number from, but here’s mine). There doesn’t appear to be an unlimited express bus pass, but 7-day passes are $50. The break-even rate is 46 trips per month for the local, or 9 trips per week for the express. (Presumably, this is based on New Yorkers’ much higher and more consistent use of transit.)

In San Francisco, again, $70/month is for a local-only pass. If you want to go anywhere outside city limits, you have to ride BART, which offers only a 6.25% discount for high-value stored value cards.

So, for anyone whose daily commute includes an express bus, Seattle isn’t actually so expensive.

Still, I completely agree that Seattle is heavily subsidizing regional transit at the expense of local. Seattle-only buses are more expensive than they should be, and expresses are much too cheap.

Oops… looks like NY fares have gone up in the last 7 days as well.

It’s worth noting that you can go a significant ways outside of Boston proper on that $59 subway/standard bus pass. The “express buses” you cite are literally a point-to-point highway-based commuting option, representing a tiny portion of the transit system. They provide a different service; they should cost more, and do.

Meanwhile, that $104 NY transit pass ($89 last week) will get you anywhere in the 5 boroughs — and New York City is 30 miles across. And again, the “express buses” are a niche commuting service at a legitimately different price.

Seattle will charge you $90, in-city, even if your peak-hour commute involves CRAWLING across the city at 3 mph, on a reverse-commute bus that actually DROPS in frequency at peak times, with no hope of improvement. There’s simply no comparison.

I’ve read Snoop’s blow job posts before (he’s never gotten one, BTW)

But if you’ll search “”I guess you don’t appreciate that great american right of passage” on Publicola I’m sure you’ll find it.

Something about Google kept getting me close, but no “cigar”.

So what’s with Snoop’s oral (verbal anyway) fascination with his own penis? More, what’s with all the “like”s he gets whenever he says “blow job”? What a putz. So to speak.

I must be a guy memo I missed, where you say blow job and get liked for it. But you know what? Its awesome getting a blow job while getting a memo. Or getting a blow job while posting about a memo about blow jobs on Publicola.

A beater pollutes more and gets much worse gas mileage, those are factors for some of us. As is reliability.

AAA pays for itself in other discounts like for booking hotels and riding Amtrak. If you travel much, the $90 a year really ends up being saved on the AAA discounts most hotels, motels and trains offer.

I don’t disagree with any of that [though I do remember when you had to pay a token to *leave* Braintree Station... ] I just mean to point out that, for a certain class of rider (esp. those riding ST), the service here is actually reasonably priced.

And also, our 36x multiplier is actually pretty standard. The real problem is the actual single-ride fare. For the price of a trip from Capitol Hill to downtown, you can travel from Woodinville to Tacoma, even though the cost per boarding is far higher for the latter. That’s a subsidy for long-distance riders at the expense of short. I’m all for a simple fare structure, but in this case, it might be a bit too simple.

As far as your reverse-peak comment, though, I agree that it’s ridiculous for Metro to charge peak fares in the reverse-peak direction. The point of peak fares is to charge more when demand is higher, but reverse-peak, demand is probably lower than normal. Most commuter rail services that I know of only charge the peak fare in the peak direction. (Are there some bus lines in Seattle that have crush-loads both directions during peak? Probably… the 70-series expresses, maybe? But I can’t think of anything else.)

Aleks,

There’s actually a lot of reverse-peak demand. And not just of the Microsoft-to-Capitol Hill variety. There are plenty of tech jobs in Fremont, medical and service jobs in Ballard, and so forth.

But that demand goes UNSERVICED. There are essentially zero routes with frequency increases in the reverse-commute direction, and many with peak-hour DROPS and major schedule hiccups (designed to with downtown through-pass timing in mind, not that it works).

In fact, buses leaving Ballard during the afternoon rush are often more crush-loaded than in the “peak” direction. 40-45 minute trips is the rule, not the exception, for these overcrowded runs.

So how dare they charge a “premium” for them?