Parking Rates Should Be Higher. Much Higher.

Right on ECB, right on.

I agree with the proposed hikes, but not too much higher than that. Really the business should be crying foul that we’d let the city sell a subsidized product (on-street parking) at below market rates and tea-partiers should be upset that we’d tax-subsidize private business with cheap parking. But private lots might be over-prized as some commenter pointed out in a previous post that private parking lots vacancy rate is rather high for market equilibrium. Thus the market rate is probably somehwere around $4 to $5/hour for the first two hours; lower for longer stays.

Why even have street parking? Just make it 15 minute stops only.

That would force people into the private parking lots where all cars can be taxed more efficiently.

“$10 for the first half-hour”

I’ve stayed in motels cheaper than that.

“$10 for the first half-hour”

I’ve stayed in motels cheaper than that.

I could imagine this downtown, but that would result in a lot of wasted space throughout the rest of the city.

One strongly negative effect this would be to speed up traffic. If few people were parked on the sides of the road we’d have a visually wider road. Wide roads intimidate pedestrians and encourage speeding. It would be like an anti-road diet (road fattening?).

What makes you think that city government is providing parking services cheaper than private lots like Diamond? Because the meter is cheaper? This would be true if you neglect (which you obviously have) to include the cost road and curb maintenance, the cost of the meters, the cost of monitoring, etc. We, as taxpayers, are already covering these costs. I find it hard to believe that city government is providing this service cheaper than private lots.

One lot that charges $10.00 for the first half hour isn’t the whole story. Most weekday parking in downtown is between $7.00 to $12.00 per day if you’re in before 9AM. A good number of lots, I can think of 2 right around 4th and Union, have three hour specials that are around $7.00 – $9.00. So there’s plenty of cheap parking that’s right in line or cheaper the cities current streetside rates. The market is working just fine.

Raise the rates though, get cars off the streets and fill the half empty lots I see every day. Things will be safer with less cars/trucks/suv’s parked on the streets obstructing views and blocking right of ways.

Logic will not work with this city council. Only campaign contributions will.

Raising parking rates downtown right now is a terrible idea. We need to make sure downtown remains vital and raising the parking rates will undermine that. This is not a city where we are all going to take the bus or ride bikes.

Raising parking rates downtown right now is a terrible idea. We need to make sure downtown remains vital and raising the parking rates will undermine that. This is not a city where we are all going to take the bus or ride bikes.

Is Erica suggesting that people actually pay $10 to park for 30 minutes in a private lot or garage? lol Very few actually do that. Those rates are to discourage short-term parking, because those lots/garages want people to park there for several hours at a time, if not all day.

Another thing Erica seems to be ignorant of is that many businesses VALIDATE parking for those customers in pay lots. I used to see a dentist in the Medical Dental Building downtown. I don’t know what their hourly rates were, because I never paid to park in their garage — I always parked there for about one hour for free, because the dentist paid for my parking by validating my parking.

Many restaurants and department stores downtown do the same thing. The posted short-term parking rates may be very high in private lots and garages, but virtually nobody actually pays those rates because they either park several hours or all day, or their parking is validated by the businesses they are patronizing.

I will never pay $4 per hour to park downtown, or anywhere else. I doubt many people will.

If the city really wants to increase revenue from onstreet parking, they should stop allowing people to park free if they have a handicapped parking card. A very large percentage of onstreet parking is used free by those people.

The fact that Erica compares a $1.50/hr increase in onstreet parking rates to a TEN PERCENT increase in the commercial parking tax, just shows how little she understands about this. A $1.50/hr increase is a SIXTY PERCENT price increase. That is six times the increase that a 10% tax is. A 10% increase is not that big a deal. A 60% increase in the price of anything is a very big deal.

Hmmm, I read Erica’s article again, and she says the current parking rate downtown is $2.00/hr. I thought it was already $2.50. Crosscut says the current rate is $2.50. The Seattle Times says the current rate is $2.50.

Who to believe — the other media in Seattle, or the expert on everything, Erica C. Barnett?

And Erica once again posts ideas from the Seattle Transit Blog, weeks later and not as well thought out.

Why don’t you leave the critical thinking for the critical thinkers?

And Erica once again posts ideas from the Seattle Transit Blog, weeks later and not as well thought out.

Why don’t you leave the critical thinking for the critical thinkers?

If no parking was long than 15 minutes, then you could “give back” at least half (if not far more) of the street space dedicated to parking. It’s only “wasted space” if you assume (as many folks erroneously due) that once something is paved as street, it is street forever.

Why not let businesses validate parking at city parking meters? The customer is reimbursed and the city collects the parking fee from the business. Seems like a straightforward technical problem, especially if they paid with a card.

Or have the city contract out all the parking spaces for a yearly fee and let the contractor charge the public whatever rate they please for the spaces. Of course they’re not just going to give the spaces away for $2.00/hour, are they? Chances are they will aim for the same rate as their competition. But again, local shops could validate if they wanted to.

In any case, parking in shopping malls and on suburban streets is not “free”. The cost of that parking in “free” lots is hidden, allowing everyone involved to keep up the illusion that their lifestyle is without consequences…

absolutely ridiculous. I’ll go to Bellevue instead. Seattle is horrendous for parking. Keep parking cheap cheap cheap. All you people on here who are saying blah blah blah about raising parking meter rates have one thing in common: you don’t run or work in retail business. period! Horrendous Seattle business culture.

That was my first thought as well, but it depends on what you do with this space. Making the sidewalk larger would be nice, but then there’s no parking buffer between pedestrians and cars. I suppose we could put seperated bike lanes on one side of the road.

As previously pointed out, street parking cannot be compared to lots. Lots are built and maintained privately. They take your car off the street, which is, generally, safer for your car and valuables. Garages provide some sort of security, and keep your car safe from the elements. And you can park all day. All things street parking does not offer.

That said, what also concerns me is the proposal to make Sunday parking paid parking. It’s really just a personal gripe, and realistically, if that happens, I’ll just go for Sunday movies with the kid to Northgate or Bellevue.

I don’t buy into the DSA’s warnings that any hikes will kill downtown businesses (I think a small hike would be fine), but the current proposal, the size and the extension, I would say is a bit much, IMHO.

Raising parking rates can actually improve business, as it creates an incentive for people not to park for a long period of time (letting more shoppers in). Also, freeing up parking spots removes the feeling of it being very hard to find parking in the city – another factor that should increase business. It’s not as if rates will be so high that nobody parks on thet street anymore (and if so, just watch how quickly we change it back – the city’s doing this to make money, which is impossible if nobody parks here).

“This is not a city where we are all going to take the bus or ride bikes.”

?!? Don’t we have the highest bus ridership for a city our size in the US? I thought our bike ridership rates were near the top too, despite our bad weather. Please name the cities you’re talking about where we would all bus or bike.

To all those that will “go to Bellevue instead”: good riddance. We have far more people that want to park than can park on our streets. When you leave because our rates are too high, those that don’t think the rates are too high will finally find parking spots. I have a feeling they’ll spend more money here than you would anyway.

Street parking doesn’t compete with early-bird rates for the obvious reason that you can’t park on the street for more than 2 hours. Street parking competes with rates at or less than 2 hours.

The commenters who are saying to keep metered parking cheap must never come downtown. What keeping metered parking cheap causes is – no parking available!

Metered parking in downtown Seattle is clearly under-priced. It’s totally obvious because you can almost never find any metered spots available.

Underpricing metered parking ensure that there isn’t enough to meet demand, but it also causes people to cruise around looking for a spot, which means more congestion and pollution. The city should keep raising prices until something like 10% of the spots are free at any time. Then people who want a metered spot can easily find one. In fact, metered parking should be more expensive than private parking, because it doesn’t have the cost in time of getting in and out of a garage.

Carl makes the bet point yet. Why don’t we slowly raise the rates until there are always a few spaces available? This is just a simple free market principle. Also, one can never depend upon having a street parking space when planning a trip downtown. This is why even atheists pray to the parking gods! Seems like business people would understand cost is not the only variable, parking availability is very important.

It is humorous when these tea party types forget about their ‘values’ when a socialized system that benefits them is going to be cut.

Right, Mr. Businessman, that’s why almost all of the businesses in Seattle oppose adding paid parking and/or increasing parking rates – clearly you know a lot more about how to run their businesses than they do.

And if a mode share for bicycles at 2.5% is “near the top” I’d say the bar is set pretty low, indeed.

Manhattan’s parking rate is $2.50/hour, and that increase was only phased in this year.

While I go downtown during the day as little as possible, I have always been able to find metered spots when I need them – you may just have to spend a couple of minutes looking for one. Beats paying $7 for a private lot by a mile….

Yeah, keeping parking cheap! And stores should acquire lots of property to build big free lots. That way, people like me, who walk, take the bus, or bike to stores get to subsidize your “free” parking! Great policy.

There have been studies that show like 20% of the cars driving around downtown are looking for an available parking spot – because they want to pay $2 instead of $7. I do the same if I drive downtown. If the costs were comparable, then if I didn’t quickly see one on the street, I would use a lot or garage. So instead we make people pay in time by cruising so they can save dollars. It’s not sensible and it’s not environmentally responsible.

There have been studies that show like 20% of the cars driving around downtown are looking for an available parking spot – because they want to pay $2 instead of $7. I do the same if I drive downtown. If the costs were comparable, then if I didn’t quickly see one on the street, I would use a lot or garage. So instead we make people pay in time by cruising so they can save dollars. It’s not sensible and it’s not environmentally responsible.

Yeah, and if there’s one place where it’s easy to find street parking, it’s Manahattan. They must be doing something right. [/sarcasm]

Would you actually park downtown if you had to pay $7 per hour?

According to stories I have read on this subject, a high number of onstreet parking spots are regularly taken by people with handicapped permits, which allows them to park on the street for free for as long as they want to. Why not make those people pay the same price to park as everyone else? Then see what happens to onstreet parking availability.

I should have stated more clearly that there plenty of lots with $7.00 – $9.00 rates for up to three hour stays anytime of the day. This is competitive with current street parking rates.

If these businesses actually knew what was good for them, the Bush era would have been good for the economy.

Plant trees, put in public art or kiosks or all kinds of things that could take up that space. Or separate bike lanes are fine too. Parked cars are a good buffer, but they’re definitely not the only one.

I like that idea…take the parking lanes on either side of the street and remove entirely.

Then on one side, build a dedicated and separated (by concrete riser) bike lane. Then on other side, make it an Airport-type Unload Only zone.

Sometimes. I try to use Metro or Sound Transit when I have enough time. But if I’m pinched for time and have an appointment for which I have to be punctual, I’ll pay. I’d like it if I could rely on finding an on-street spot, understanding that it may only be cost-effective for stays up to an hour, if longer than that, park in a garage or take a bus.

Another thought is that the on-street parking rates should vary by time of day – more expensive 9am – 6pm, cheaper after 6pm and Sundays.

Sometimes. I try to use Metro or Sound Transit when I have enough time. But if I’m pinched for time and have an appointment for which I have to be punctual, I’ll pay. I’d like it if I could rely on finding an on-street spot, understanding that it may only be cost-effective for stays up to an hour, if longer than that, park in a garage or take a bus.

Another thought is that the on-street parking rates should vary by time of day – more expensive 9am – 6pm, cheaper after 6pm and Sundays.

That, or lots of those people who are making discretionary trips would simply stop doing so.

Northgate North and Westwood Village – here I come!

People like you are poster children for why assholes like Bill O’Reilly get away with tarring all liberals and progressives as elitists – because you prove there is more than a grain of truth to the accusation.

Yeah, that’s strange. I’d like to hear the logic that goes into that. We should have designated handicap space throughout the city, and limit it to 2 hours.

I can’t imagine being handicapped and driving in Seattle. It’s impossible to find street parking, and I can’t think of any parking lots that are terribly handicapped friendly. Then there are the hills…

You know what would be tougher than that? Being handicapped an not driving.

You know what would be tougher than that? Being handicapped an not driving.

oops – “and”

oops – “and”

“I thought our bike ridership rates were near the top too, despite our bad weather. ”

The only bicycle counts the city does are by volunteers (read Cascade Bicycle Club members) one day each year, in September, when our weather is about the best in the nation (not too hot, little chance of rain). In addition, the date and time of the bicycle count is announced ahead of time and advertised by the Cascade Bicycle Club to its members, just in case they may decide they need to ride their bicycle at that exact time and day. The city also cancels the bicycle count and reschedules it if it actually rains at the time it is originally scheduled.

In other words, “our bad weather” is completely eliminated from the equation by the selection of the only date per year when bike riders are counted.

What do you think Seattle’s bike ridership rates would be if bike trips were counted on unannounced dates in the winter by uninterested, objective counters?

Definately less. Are you saying the NYC counts are done only during snowstorms? Or are you hoping to prove that the vast majority of commuters drive (feigns surprise)?

I’m not sure about that. I hear Metro’s Access service is quite good. Combine that with our region’s excellent bus service, and I would imagine it would be more difficult to drive than ride.

I’m saying that over the course of an entire year, nowhere near 3% of all trips in Seattle are by bicycle.

You disagree?

Seattle continues to move in this direction. Cycletraks, wider sidewalks, comfortable plazas, sidewalk cafes, and room for food vendors , etc. are certainly a better use of our downtown streets than giving away that precious space so someone can park their car there. The Opportunity Costs of providing those space could probably actually be quantified in this instance.

In fairness, 2.5-3% is the work commute mode split, so if you throw in all recreational and non work trips I suspect that that figure does indeed go up some (but not enough to warrant the disproportionate influence of the bike lobby)

Imagine away – you’re wrong.

The Access program is a wonderful thing, but is sort of useless if you don’t know in advance when and where you need to go. I’ve seen people wait for quite awhile for scheduled Access rides to show up, as well.

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/tops/accessible/accessvan.html

“If city government can provide a service more cheaply than the private market while still making some money off the deal, why should businesses complain about that profit?”

Because the city is not a business. It can only take money via taxing (burdening) people that are in business. the general confusion on what the city governement is supposed to be doing and who it is supposed to be serving, is what is driving the citizens to vote out incumbants.

“When you leave because our rates are too high, those that don’t think the rates are too high will finally find parking spots. I have a feeling they’ll spend more money here than you would anyway.”

Should all of Seattle’s citizens have access to all of Seattle, not just the ones who will spend more money downtown?

I stopped shopping in downtown Seattle three years ago. Downtown and Northgate are equadistant from my house; I go to Northgate, which has many of the same stores, and park for free. And I end up buying more than bike riders, for the simple reason that my car’s trunk and back seat can carry a lot more items, big and small, than a bike bag.

It’s a no-brainer, but the bike zealots don’t understand reality.

Sure. And they do.

Are you advocating for subsidised parking for the poor? If so, perhaps “parking stamps” should be included with food stamps, to make sure there’s a real financial hardship involved.

Sure. And they do.

Are you advocating for subsidised parking for the poor? If so, perhaps “parking stamps” should be included with food stamps, to make sure there’s a real financial hardship involved.

I’d argue that even without Access it’s probably easier to take a bus downtown* than park for the disabled. Rather than being limited to the few handicapped accessable parking lots in the city, or hoping for a street parking space, you have access to about every other block throughout downtown on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.

* The other end of the bus ride is another story. But then former coworker chose his apartment in Belltown specifically so that he could walk outside, cross the street, and catch a bus right to our work. He had a bad knee and couldn’t walk more than a block or so.

How long will it be before Michael Moore does a documentary on Seattle, its mayor, its dysfunctional politics, its sinking economy, the car people versus the bikers and mass transit contingency, city government against state government, and on and on and on? I am sure it would draw large audiences in certain parts of the city! Seems like the demise of Seattle should be documented in film for future generations.

Mr. X, if that is, indeed, the work commute mode split, it is measured only in September, so that is the mode split in September, which I contend would be about the highest share of bike commuters for the entire year. The percent of commuters using bikes is far, far below 2.5% – 3% in the winter, is it not? Most people work year-round, do they not? What is the work commute % that is bicyclists in the winter months? What is the average over the entire 12 months of the year?

So, Erica you’re advocating that Hourly parking rates should be higher in Seattle than they are in NYC? In Chicago?

“If anything, given the extent to which driving is subsidized (largely by non-drivers) in Seattle”

Farcical. You are actually claiming that roads are largely subsidized by non-drivers? In a region where only 16% of households own zero cars? Baloney.

I’m just knocking your “good riddance” attitude towards people who will likely spend less downtown than others.

Business community rails against subsidies and “socialism” when it’s ordinary people getting the benefit. But when it’s THEM, well, thank you very much, we can just turn a blind eye to that!

Grover,

I’m pretty sure that figure is based on the last census, not the Cascade bike club point in time count.

We need to start charging for bicycle parking too. The city provides the space & the racks. They claim they have just as much rights to the roads as cars… let them pay like cars.

Yeah, that probably deserves a knock. But I’m having a hard time picturing the burdens of the downtrodden that now won’t be able to drive into the city and park. I do pretty well, but still take the bus to save money.

Market decides? Alright. Let’s do an index of all the private parking within, say half a mile of any particular parking spot. The mean of that will be the per-hour rate. How’s that? Go from $1.50 to $7. Oh, ok…I know parking garages provide some level of services. So…knock $.50 off of that, eh?

Ok. We’ll charge by the footprint. As a proportion to how much space a car takes up, it’ll be 5 cents an hour.

We’ve got different rates and different policies through out the city. No biggie.

We’ve got different rates and different policies through out the city. No biggie.

Larger sidewalk IS buffer. And we could put swales and trees in – both buffering the sidewalk and improving water quality.

Larger sidewalk IS buffer. And we could put swales and trees in – both buffering the sidewalk and improving water quality.

Private lots do provide some services, but I think essentially what you’re paying for (besides a profit margin) is real estate value. Think about the cost of the space a car takes up in terms of office sq footage.

I’d interpret the non-drivers to mean those that aren’t driving and parking downtown. I’d guess a large majority of those that park on Seattle’s streets don’t live in Seattle.

Decreasing vehicle traffic and increasing foot traffic will do that much more effectively than more cars will. Car traffic is necessarily less dense than transit, pedestrian or bike traffic can be. Can you imagine walking around with a 12 foot (min) radius around you everywhere you went?

Hey, look, businesses don’t seem to be able to do the math that giving up one street parking spot to a bike coral that can accommodate 12 bicycles leads to more traffic in front of their doors. Being a business owner doesn’t make you smarter. Business owners like the status quo. They’re risk averse. Sometimes that makes them short sighted.

Hey, look, businesses don’t seem to be able to do the math that giving up one street parking spot to a bike coral that can accommodate 12 bicycles leads to more traffic in front of their doors. Being a business owner doesn’t make you smarter. Business owners like the status quo. They’re risk averse. Sometimes that makes them short sighted.

Commute mode share or bicycle ownership? Because Seattle’s got good riding numbers – but recreational, not commute wise which means downtown is a less likely destination. Portland (which has very similar weather)’s commute ride share is, as far as I know, the highest at 6% and Seattle’s is decent – maybe even top ten, but there’s a long way to go.

Silly X! Urbanist engineers don’t understand economics! That’s not their department!

Bear in mind that even at “the top”, cyclist rates are still somewhere around 3% of the population, i.e. not all that much.

I say go for it. Go for it, and see what happens. It won’t matter who thinks they’re right, and why… because what will actually happen is all that will matter.

Really? I live in Ballard. I’m supposed to believe that the cars lining the residential and local streets like Leary and Market are commuters from outside Seattle?

Sorry, I don’t think so. Erica’s premise here is spurious at best.

12 bicycle spots for the 2.5-3% of commuters who use bikes vs. the 67% who rely on cars?

Remind me not to let you do my books.

I’d say from McGinn’s defensive tone on the TV news as he scrambles to justify this proposal that he might just be starting to realize that $4/hour parking is going over with the general public about as well has Nickels’ handling of snowstorms did.

I’d say from McGinn’s defensive tone on the TV news as he scrambles to justify this proposal that he might just be starting to realize that $4/hour parking is going over with the general public about as well has Nickels’ handling of snowstorms did.

You’re right. I was talking about downtown, but it’s clear Erica’s talking about the whole city. (I actually didn’t realize they charged for street parking in Ballard)

Realistically, I think a part of it is more psychological than anything else. As stated above, I agree that we need revenue, and increases in the parking rate is one area that should be looked into, I just don’t agree with how much is being proposed, or the extension into charge parking on Sunday.

My personal anecdote has nothing to do with anything other than I would rather drive the extra ten minutes to get to Northgate to see a movie or shop than pay on Sunday. Plus, I like the ability to just park downtown, grab a bite, do some shopping maybe, see a movie with the kid, grab another snack, and then go home. No 2 hour limit.

To me, a part of it also comes down to where would we rather people put their money – into parking fees for street parking, or into local businesses. If someone’s paying an extra $3 to park for two hours, on top of what they currently would pay, what’s to say they won’t skip the latte. Again, I have nothing to base this on, just thinking out loud, so to speak.

Do me a favor – count up the bicycle racks in the city and the number of bikes, and then the number of parking spaces and the number of cars. Then explain to me how your comment makes any sense.

Not sure where Erica is getting her $7/hr figure. Pacific Place is $7 for 2 hours.
http://www.pacificplaceseattle.com/parking.aspx

To all those posting that rates should be much higher, hope you enjoy seeing Seattle’s shopping and restaurant economy continue to bleed out in to neighboring areas. Bellevue with its free parking and clean streets was already appealing to me. Now I don’t even have to think twice.

You also have to consider that 28% of our city is devoted to parking. The average is 20%. This also helps explain the large amount of empty and half filled lots throughout the city.

Personally I think the city should build a few strategically placed parking garages, consolidate the parking into smaller spaces. And turn the street parking into bike lanes or wider sidewalks for pedestrians / cafes.

I would even be okay with subsidizing the costs of this, bringing down the price of parking for cars in garages, if it makes it easier to get cars off the street.

The city gets your tax $$ either way.

The city will get its sales tax portion from the places I patronize, but not a dime of money I’m not going to spend on parking downtown, whether it’s $4.00 or $10.00 an hour. I will shop where it is more convenient for me, and it will still be cheaper for me to shop in places with free parking in North Seattle. The problem with upping the parking rates downtown is that it hurts retailers and restaurants in the downtown core who won’t be getting those shoppers and diners in the first place.

This is not rocket science.

Why not just set on street parking prices based on supply and demand? Slowly increase or decrease prices until each block is about 80% full (or about 2 open spaces per block.) Each block would have it’s own price based on the time of day and day of the week. This way you are pretty much guaranteed a parking space in front of your destination, and you pay the fair market value instead of some arbitrary price set by politicians.

“Carl makes the bet point yet. Why don’t we slowly raise the rates until there are always a few spaces available?”

This is how supply and demand are supposed to work. Professor Donald Shoup at UCLA is one of the country’s foremost parking authorities, and this is one of his key principles. (Despite the photo, he doesn’t preach bike riding.) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4622062

“Carl makes the bet point yet. Why don’t we slowly raise the rates until there are always a few spaces available?”

This is how supply and demand are supposed to work. Professor Donald Shoup at UCLA is one of the country’s foremost parking authorities, and this is one of his key principles. (Despite the photo, he doesn’t preach bike riding.) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4622062

“Carl makes the bet point yet. Why don’t we slowly raise the rates until there are always a few spaces available?”

This is how supply and demand are supposed to work. Professor Donald Shoup at UCLA is one of the country’s foremost parking authorities, and this is one of his key principles. (Despite the photo, he doesn’t preach bike riding.) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4622062

“Carl makes the bet point yet. Why don’t we slowly raise the rates until there are always a few spaces available?”

This is how supply and demand are supposed to work. Professor Donald Shoup at UCLA is one of the country’s foremost parking authorities, and this is one of his key principles. (Despite the photo, he doesn’t preach bike riding.) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4622062

Washington State law mandates that city pay parking be free to handicapped permit holders, and typically there are no time limits. The only thing Seattle can do is to limit a handicapped parker to four hours in a spot, which was proposed for some areas: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010754112_parking10m.html

I promise never to come into Seattle to do business again, ever.

I promise to stay away from live sporting events in Seattle and instead to spend thousands on a home entertainment system so I can invite my neighbors and they won’t ever go to Seattle again, too.

Leave it for the bicycle riders, they can support the castrophe called Seattle.