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Bringing you cola for the people, PubliCola is named after Publius Valerius PubliCola, the alias for the authors of the Federalist Papers—the original bloggers.

The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

Don’t Compromise The Central Waterfront By Ruling Out Development

Yesterday’s selection of a team led by james corner field operations to design Seattle’s central waterfront is inspiring, for sure, but the decision didn’t have me on the edge of my seat. Any one of the four shortlisted teams have the chops to do something amazing. The far more critical issue is how the city sets the parameters for the design of the waterfront, and in particular, the misguided notion that there should be no new development.

Removing the roaring concrete hulk known as the Alaskan Way Viaduct will obviously transform the central waterfront. But it won’t fix many other existing faults that have prevented the waterfront from becoming a exemplary public space,  including a lack of diversity and density of uses; massive swaths of surface parking and parking garages; angled piers that block water views; a huge pedestrian dead zone created by the loading area of the state ferry terminal; and poor connectivity to the east. Today the waterfront is kept on life support by tourists during the summer months—for locals, on a day-to-day basis, it has little to offer.

After the viaduct is gone, the biggest challenge to creating a successful people place on the waterfront will be the vastness of the space. It’s difficult to capture that in pictures or diagrams—you really have to walk through it to understand. In particular, to get an idea for how empty the central waterfront would feel with the viaduct gone, check out the area just north of Pike Street where the viaduct and Alaskan Way diverge, as shown in the photos above (click to enlarge).

The designers could fill all that space with compelling landscape architecture, no doubt. But for the post-viaduct waterfront to reach its fullest potential, what it needs most of all is new buildings that will create activated, human-scale spaces. As I have written previously, to be successful the the waterfront must provide all kinds of people with all kinds of reasons to go there at all times of the day. Given the deficiencies noted above, a smattering of kiosks and pavilions won’t be enough to prevent empty windswept plaza syndrome from infecting such a gargantuan  expanse. The most prominent recent example of this trap is the Rose Kennedy Greenway in Boston.

And this is where constraints come in. Because unfortunately, the city has so far taken the position that all of the land under the viaduct must remain open space. In 2004 the city council codified that sentiment in a city ordinance stating that one of the “guiding principles” of the Viaduct/Seawall Project would be to “keep the public right-of-way in public ownership.” In 2009, a spokesman told the PI that then-mayor Greg Nickels wanted to “keep the corridor land in public ownership if the viaduct is removed, and to transform the land into a millennium park.”

More recently, the city has also resorted to scrubbing the advice of its own consultant, Gehl Architects of Copenhagen. According to a reliable source, the draft version of the firm’s “Public Spaces, Public Life” report recommended the development of new row of buildings opposite the piers, with Alaskan Way running behind. But that recommendation never made it into the final report. And that’s a shame, because I, for one, believe Gehl’s advice is spot on, and would like to see the plans of what they proposed.

Much of the city’s aversion to new development on the waterfront seems to be politically motivated, driven by the perception that the typical Seattle voter worships open space and loathes developers. That dynamic was captured perfectly in council member Sally Bagshaw’s recent comment that she has been working for years to prevent “giant condos and hotels” on the waterfront.

Look, nobody with any credibility is proposing to wall off the waterfront with a playground for the wealthy. But allowing that myopic, knee-jerk fear to rule out any development at all is counterproductive. Development is not the enemy. And in this case, since the city controls the land, we have the opportunity to stipulate exactly the kind of development we want, as well as to cut deals with developers to fund public amenities—a win-win.

It will be no small task to transform today’s central waterfront into the kind of vibrant, diverse, comfortable urban public space that everyone wants. But we might as well give up now if we can’t beyond our collective fear of allowing thoughtful redevelopment to be a part of the reinvention of one of Seattle’s greatest assets.




  • Chris

    Well said Dan. The City should look to re-evaluate this policy

  • petediddy

    i agree
    this is a great opportunity for low-moderate income housing

  • Miami Beach, yeah!

    Yes. And keep in mind that since we’re building that big old tunnel we won’t need any capacity on the surface.

    Please fill the area with a street grid with narrow streets and big old sidewalks. And yes, Miami Beach would be awesome!

    http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/miami-beach-fla285.jpg

  • Brian

    I’m reading lots of commentary like this, but what I want to hear is what you all recommend in this “development is good” framework. You can’t fight a perspective with an ambiguous alternative that no one can picture. If you can put something of substance to this argument I may better understand what you expect and may likely agree. But, I’d rather not open things up willy nilly just because some development is necessary. That requires a roadmap. Maybe Gehl had one, but I want to know what that is from people who know better than me.

    I’d envision turning much of the development backing up against the “bluff” into outward reaching development into “the common space” linking the downtown with the waterfront. Keep actual waterfront development low and broken up to allow access and connection to the marine aspects of the environment. No more of those double decker condos like the NW end of Alaska way, as that whole area is dead still. Connect the housing stock on first and maintain commercial space down low, converting from furniture and other randomness to more retail oriented activity. Remove much of the under viaduct parking or place it behind a commercial facade facing the waterfront. But now I’m just rambling and not particularly coherent.

  • Reasoned

    Sure they can. That’s how their boy the Mayor got elected.

  • Anonymous

    I think dynamic is the key word. Its the problem with spaces like the sculpture park. You can make them as coo las you want with great looking features and tributes to heritage, but at the end of the day you’ll go see it once or twice and then never again.

    Now you have restaurants, outdoor performance spaces, venues for rotating exhibits, places to shop and then you have something else entirely.

    Why not sell the space over the roadway and let developers essentially hide the road for us?

  • Reasoned

    There will be development. The value of the land immediately east of the viaduct will skyrocket. Those buildings will be redeveloped higher and with water-facing uses. There’s no need to take scarce downtown public land and give it to developers to give Bertolet’s architecture firm employer more money.

  • Pete

    Another seeming imperative is preservation of the waterfront piers. I’d like to see at least some taken out for improved access to the water and improved intertidal habitat. I fail to see how curio shops, architects offices (Mithun), and restaurants are water dependent uses.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Probably the only way Seattle can start turning a profit is to get out the idea of being some kind of “business hub” and turn itself into a Pirate’s Bay tourist and high income center. If that means selling out the views to the highest bidder, then so be it. Build hotels for people who want to pay to see Elliot Bay.

    Right now the whole waterfront is severely underutilized, mainly because once you get your fish and chips there’s nothing to do. I would raze most buildings downtown and build lots of malls and parking. Let people go to work in Kent and Redmond like they want to. Make the Seattle Peninsula into a Playland. Add in casino gambling and turn the Seattle Center into a Classic Rock Playground.

  • Perfect Voter

    Careful there, John. You sound like you’re channeling Mechlin Moore of the old Seattle Central Association, back when they were advocating the teardown of the Public Market and the commercialization of everything.

    Yep, destroy the civic fabric of central Seattle and maybe things will get better for you down in Kent. However fond I am of Kent, that’s not a strategy I would subscribe to.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    The “civil fabric” of downtown Seattle seems to consist mainly of empty skyscrapers, smelly sidewalks, knife wielding psychotics, and increasing taxation on the hapless commuters who are jailed at their jobs there.

    You seem to balk at the idea of creating something that 90 percent of the people in Washington State would find attractive and actually want to use for them and their families.

  • Anonymous

    “You seem to balk at the idea of creating something that 90 percent of the people in Washington State would find attractive and actually want to use for them and their families.”

    Screw them. Build something for the people that live in this City. They can build there own stuff.

    We subsidize them and I am tired of it.

  • tpn

    Development is not adding “public space”. It’s expanding “private” space. “No tresspassing” is the guiding principle of private space.

  • MaddogM13

    Always happy to get the developers’ perspective on the need for more development. Because they’re so underrepresented in the city’s decision making process, don’t you know.

  • http://catquibbles.blogspot.com serial catowner

    Dan has cleverly tilted the table here by specifying what the waterfront needs to do to “reach its fullest potential” and “be successful”. What happens if you don’t agree with Dan’s definition of “fullest potential” or “success”? Well, too bad for you, as St. Jane of Jacobs handed down to us on stone tablets all we need to know about cities, and ours is but to obey.

    In reality, the amount of land is quite small and the number of people who have a stake in the outcome is fairly large- even if they don’t visit the waterfront every day. Most people don’t go to the art museum or library every day, but we (or at least, most of us) do not conclude that museums and libraries are failures because of this.

    And this is all especially curious when we consider that there is no shortage of what Dan wants, for the people who want it. Pioneer Square is just a few blocks away, but merchants there complain they’re not getting enough people in the neighborhood. Considering how much Pioneer Square resembles Dan’s admittedly nebulous ideals of low-rise development with lots of storefronts and variety, maybe we should try Dan’s ideas there before we force them into every planning process for public space.

    What strikes me most about Dan’s thinking is the poverty of the intellect. For most of my life I’ve visited the waterfront several times a year, and I never have any trouble seeing the sound and the mountains, or the city rising behind me, and enjoying the relative openness that makes it possible to see these things. Even on a bitter winter morning joggers and bicyclers are out enjoying their small sliver of pathway. For us, the existing waterfront has plenty to offer, and cramming in more housing and shops would reduce what it offers, not expand it.

    For the people who want what Dan is selling, the city of Seattle already has numerous places. Why would we add more, especially when the existing places would love more patronage? I have no hesitation at all in saying the central waterfront is a special place that deserves special protections against more development in the 9-acre tract being considered for a park.

    And Dan, get out and walk more. That space is nowhere near as “huge” as you think.

  • sarah

    Yes, get rid of all that parking space. After all, Seattle families with children are eager to take 2 or 3 buses for several hoursfrom their homes to get to the waterfront to have a nice hour’s diversion before they get on their buses to go home again. If it’s not Sunday, that is, when less buses are running.

    But if families don’t come downtown, then all those Western Avenue condo owners will, right? Just like they do now.

  • Bill B in the Central District

    With the public space in the 10 acre range, there is not much to work with here, and the hoopla and expense associated with this endeavor is mind numbing for those that see the ongoing lack of attention paid to other neglected public assets in the City.

    Unless it is made to specifically draw people for communal activities – as a place “to go” for the vast majority of Seattlites – the central waterfront will be primarily another tourist checklist item and the lunchtime diversion for downtown office workers such as HAC.

    We are talking about a “public realm” a little bigger than Cal Anderson Park. That park does just fine with out “commerce, commerce, commerce”. People will not make the trip downtown and the waterfront to get a snowcone or a Banana Republic t-shirt.

    How much “development” would Cal Anderson sustain? Perhaps another Chihuly exhibition space and a dodge-ball court could be the compromise sought.

  • MJH

    Maybe it’s not about selling off public land. City/State could structure 99 year leases in specific areas where designers determine would benefit from higher levels of activation than can otherwise be expected. These could be specially structured leases aimed at achieving defined levels of public benefit, i.e. affordable housing, public amenity, etc. As Dan mentions, there is tremendous opportunity for win-win public-private partnerships given the expanse and high value of the area. 99-year leases leave future somewhat open, and perhaps are more politically palatable. Not being a lawyer, there may be some legal barriers I am not aware of. Of course 99 years from now the waterfront might be closer to 1st Avenue.

  • MJH

    Pioneer Square is different from the Central Waterfront in so many ways, it would not be possible to fully list them here. However, the big issue with PS is its lack of residents and major employers. There are many more residents and employees in closer proximity to the Central Waterfront. The key to creating a public space that is perceived as safe and exciting is filling it with people. Views alone are not enough to engage people and entice them to linger, particularly those of us who live in this City. Views are but one ingredient to the stew of successful public spaces. Jogging and bicycling are great activities, and help to activate a space for sure, but how do you get these people to stop and linger? They don’t currently.

  • MJH

    You don’t get out much do you?

  • Anc

    I didn’t know what the Rose Kennedy Greenway was so I emailed my buddy from Boston. An interesting email exchange has developed, some of which people here might find interesting. It’s kinda long I warn you.

    I ask about the Rose Kennedy Greenway.

    “My thoughts are premised on my view of the city as something that should be complicated, confining, surprising, and crowded with people and their stories. This will likely cloud my view, but I will try to give you some unbiased thoughts.

    But first, the more judgemental. Before the artery was built (the original elevated) the area through which it runs was largely 19th century tenemants and warehouses. There was nothing of historical value beyond the urbanity I described above. All of that was torn down, and while no single element mattered all that much, the damage to the city was cutting it in half. People realized this, and when it was time to rebuild, the idea bubbled up to put it underground so that the city could be stitched back together. I picture this being like a giant zipper pulling the buildings on either side together, leaving no trace of whay was once there. Practically, this would have meant placing buildings above the tunnel, along with a narrow scaled street grid. That is what I wish had happened.

    The park that was built instead leaves the gaping wound. You move from one dense neighborhood to an oddly open and pedestrian unfriendly (4 lanes of traffic on each side of the greenway) nothingness, with more density beckoning on the other side. The park is in my view, an obstacle for transiting neighborhoods, rather than an integral connection. This might be solvable if the park can become a destination or gathering place, but I think it’s too narrow in many places for that.

    Given existing conditions, I’d take away 4 lanes of surface traffic – why have 8 when there is an 8 lane interstate bellow it? Using this space I’d put in light rail, bike lanes, and small scale buildings to line sections of the park. I wouldn’t hide it completely, but only leave enough to tease what is there. Make people find the parks by exploring the businesses populating the buildings or by making use of the bike lanes. At wider points I would leave it more open.

    At any rate, none of this is to say that the RKG is a failure. It is better than the predecessor (though I miss some of the old grit). And I can even say I have occasionaly spent time enjoyably on some of the parcels. But it is not what it could/should be. Maybe in 50 years.

    By the way, I’d be interested in reading the article.”

    I respond with a brief explanation of the situation and a link to Dan’s post and one at STB.

    “Interesting articles. I think I saw something about this a while back and hoped that some lessons from the RKG might make their way to Seattle. It looks to me that you have the same problem of large masses of people who haven’t read Jacobs (I’m a big fan) making uninformed choices about urban space. On the plus side, though, the comments make me think there are at least more people thinking about this up front. People in Boston didn’t pay attention to the surface debate during the Big Dig.

    Something that I forgot to mention – the original plan was that four parcels would be occupied by buildings, one of which was to be a winter garden (under glass) run by the Mass Horticultural Society. If the buildings get built, that will help, but the intended occupiers are non-profits that have not been able to raise enough capital. Along with the garden, we were promised a history museum, a YMCA, and a public market. These projects were deemed acceptable alternatives to open space due to the non-profit status. Fail. The parcels should have been auctioned off with the proceeds going to maintain the remaining parks.”

    Hope I wasn’t the only one that found this interesting, sorry for wasting your time if not.

  • TMN

    You’re really a soulless shell of a man, aren’t you?

  • Kathryn

    OMG John B Reading your first post as fantastic satire and laughing aloud… Thing is, people are turning Seattle Center into the church of Rock/Sci Fi/Glass Artist….

  • Brian

    This is very interesting. If we can turn this into a coherent plan for what to do with the space, balancing interests that seems like a good approach. I’m tired of just hearing blanket oppositional statements like Dan’s however that allude to a necessary alternative without ever addressing how that alternative could be implemented effectively. We’re setting ourselves up for an either or dichotomy by discussing the issue in generalities.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr Baker

    Or, was he just swiping Peter Stienbrueck’s idea for Coleman Dock 4 years ago?

  • Anonymous

    Point of clarification: isn’t the majority of the empty space shown in your picture above part of a private lot and therefore currently eligible for development? Also, I just think this whole thing is blown out of proportion. Miami Beach, certainly a vibrant place, has a distance between water line and buildings of 250 yards, if we don’t build anything, this will be 50 yards!!Its also only 10-20 acres of public space. That is nothing considering it is within walking distance of literally thousands of visitors, residents, and workers. As long as JCFO does their job and creates an alluring place for people to congregate, I think it will be a major asset to our city and I see no reason to give it over to private developers.

  • Tim

    On the waterfront? Why not go all the way and build a tent city.

  • Anonymous

    I take one bus down to the aquarium with my kids. Downtown is the hub of the transit system, why would it take more?

  • Anonymous

    One of the most interesting stats in the “Can We Achieve Social Equity Using Smart Growth?” event was that Seattle actually has more supply of housing for 40%-80% of AMI than is in demand, at least right now. It’s the under 40% and market rate (80-120%, which is not low-income) that we’re short of apparently.

    You can watch online, look for 9/20/2010
    http://www.seattlechannel.org/videos/watchVideos.asp?program=hhshc

  • Anonymous

    One of the most interesting stats in the “Can We Achieve Social Equity Using Smart Growth?” event was that Seattle actually has more supply of housing for 40%-80% of AMI than is in demand, at least right now. It’s the under 40% and market rate (80-120%, which is not low-income) that we’re short of apparently.

    You can watch online, look for 9/20/2010
    http://www.seattlechannel.org/videos/watchVideos.asp?program=hhshc

  • Anonymous

    [Fnarf] had a great post about this last week, and as I said there:
    The only way to really make this happen is to make the state choose. You get one highway – if you choose to put it underground, then the street is ours. Zone the area to match nearby building heights (maybe a bit shorter, to let light in), plat out the land with tiny non-linear streets (T’s and Y’s), and require 80% of streetfront space to be <20' storefronts. Then sell land only to developers whose plans we like. We can even just use long-term leases (say 50 years) for areas we might want back someday.

  • Barleywine

    Thanks Anc.
    It’s nice to hear from our future, before we commit.

    My friends aren’t all that smart.

  • Anonymous

    I haven’t seen a retailer yet with a “keep out” sign.

  • Anonymous

    The clue is “several hours”. [sarah] clearly lives in Centralia.

  • Mr. X

    No one there could readily break this out for me, but I strongly suspect that most of the available housing in that cohort is “affordable” to people at 60-80% of median and that most of the renters in that same cohort actually earn 40-60% of median, and find that most of that available housing supply you cite is not affordable to them at all.

    The rental housing units most threatened by displacement (and that has historically been the most displaced in the last 20 years) are the ones inhabited by unsubsidized individuals in the 30-60% median range. Using the full range of 40-80% of median distorts the true picture of what is going on in the rental market (and it’s why the term “affordable” housing often drives social justice people nuts – especially when the city tries to hand out developer incentives for units in the 60-80% median range that the market is already supplying).

  • Selma

    There’s plenty of poor folk housing all around Pike Place Market. We don’t need any more.

  • Mr. X

    What you said. I like the Viaduct, but if it finally is removed, then the space ought to be public and should enhance the open space value of the waterfront, not privatize it.

    And can we reopen the Washington Street Boat Landing, too?

  • Barleywine

    Where would you like to move them, Selma?
    Or if not move the existing ones, the new ones?

  • Anonymous

    FWIW, Miami Beach appears to have a linear park and then the wide beach between the development and the water.

  • Barleywine

    I’ve seen plenty, in the form of:

    NO PUBLIC RESTROOMS!
    CUSTOMERS ONLY!
    WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE!
    NO LOITERING!
    NO SHIRT, NO BIRKENSTOCKS, NO WALLET, NO SERVICE!

    I’m sure you could think of others.

  • Anonymous

    Good point.But then I’ve used far more private restrooms downtown than public restrooms. Wait, what public restrooms? (they sold the few they had on e-Bay). I guess those nice trees should work…

    Is your main fear that the waterfront won’t be as friendly to those without money? I find lively areas to be enjoyable even when I’m not going inside to shop. It’s not like we’re proposing to put a pedestrian toll on the street.

  • Anonymous

    That parking lot that you show there is the only part of the Waterfront that will be exposed by the viaduct that I think should get developed. The rest of it will just be an additional 50-60 feet of space, and if you put in streetcar tracks and a cycletrack, you’re down to just 30 or so. What huge development are you going to build that’s 30 feet wide, or even 50 feet wide if none of those things go in? This space can be incredible, with lots of pedestrian-drawing amenities and street food and everything. Yes, there are such things as windswept plazas, but that does not at all mean that all parks are like that! Just look at Cal Anderson Park here in Seattle, or all the little park/plazas in Manhattan. This can be like that! And we’ll be happy we created this park, because it will provide much-needed open space for Downtown for office workers on lunch break and downtown dog-walkers and people from all around Seattle hanging out Downtown, and, of course, tourists.
    There will be a ton of development all along the corridor, though; the old brick warehouses are just begging for condo-conversion with retail out of the old loading docks on the ground floor, and all of the parking and vacant lots for a couple blocks east of the Waterfront will become hotspots for development. Despite the lack of development in the Alaskan Way ROW itself, the area will be hopping with people.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Ruling Class Tactic. Ad hominem attack. Attribute craziness to the opposition viewpoint.

    Read “The Ruling Class” on Amazon.

    http://www.amazon.com/Ruling-Class-Corrupted-America-About/dp/0825305586/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285212311&sr=8-1

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Last I heard, Seattle was in Washington State.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Combining the comments of TMN and Baker:”Your idea is so bad…but in case it’s good, you must have stolen it.”<br

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo
  • Anonymous

    Well, there will be quite a bit with the light rail station, streetcar line, and tons of TOD coming online in the next few years. The nice thing about Cal Anderson Park is that it is bordered on two sides by a residential area and bordered on two sides by a commercial area. Both areas will be seeing a lot of changes in the next six years. Pike/Pine and Broadway are already feeling the impact. Some of the impact is not desired by residents (i.e. night clubs for Bellevue homophobes), but some is (like development that preserves neighborhood character).

    Cal Anderson has become Capitol Hill’s front yard because of development, not despite it.

  • Anonymous

    “That parking lot that you show there is the only part of the Waterfront that will be exposed by the viaduct that I think should get developed.”

    According to King County Property Records that parking lot is actually already eligible for development as a private parcel of land, currently valued at around $1.7 mill.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Ruling Class Technique #243: Denigration

    1. Use ‘leet to appear to be hip internet person

    2. Call the post satire (have over 20 similar responses to topics on HuffPo)

    3. Telltale signs: no photo, vague handle, no previous posts.

  • Barleywine

    I don’t know what you would like, but I think I’d like the same thing:
    No f@cking bums on the new waterfront!

    But until we can come up with a public (no bums allowed after…) or a private space (no bums alowed. Period.) that allows people to be finally equal to pigeons or squirrels I think we need to allow some bummage.

    And seagulls? They are way ahead of bums right now, at least on the waterfront. No fish, but plenty of chips. And ketchup. And salt.

    Build a permanent site away from the public, and we might start down the right road.

  • Bill B in the Central District

    I was referring in my analogy to putting ‘development’ into Cal Anderson. That is a park that is vibrant and active as is.

  • Blanky Blankenship

    Where is it that you live, sarah, that requires 2-3 buses for several hours to reach downtown? I take ONE bus to reach downtown from my neighorhood – downtown the central hub for buses. In fact, I’ve taken ONE bus from Bellevue, Kirkland, Edmonds, Redmond, Burien and even Tacoma to reach downtown. You act like waterfront parking is the ONLY parking in all of downtown Seattle, and that is factually false. Let’s review. 1. There are other places downtown to park. 2. Not everyone coming from the distant suburbs with The Children is going directly to the waterfront. 3. Most Seattle suburbs and neighborhoods have a direct bus connection to downtown. 4. Most people in Seattle and environs own a car, and can use it whenever they please. So please try again; your concern trolling for the poor Seattle Families With Children That Ride Buses For Hours And Hours To Get To The Waterfront is a complete failure.

  • Anonymous

    Maybe some of the available space should be dedicated to a separate bike path instead of stupid painted lanes in traffic? Maybe some of this space could accommodate streetcar tracks and stops? East of Railroad Way are several partial blocks (and 1 whole block) that will undoubtedly be developed from stinking parking lots into some structure or other with storefronts. In the area Dan highlights, a roadway has to be figured into the calculation, 4-lanes wide curving off a one-sided intersection with Alaskan Way, not leaving much room for pedestrian amenities, just a sidewalk next to traffic, a lot of traffic. With the cut/cover tunnel option, there’d be no road and no traffic, just park, path and bikeway. It’s a car-free idea that Seattle’s psuedo-environmentalists rejected.

  • Anonymous

    Sarah is entirely correct. Sufficient vehicle access and parking is absolutely necessary, particularly for families, senior citizens, and for commercial vehicles. I’ll keep saying this, so get used to it, a 2-lane frontage road in addition to the 4-lane Alaskan Way, is in all likelihood necessary for a number of reasons including increasing the projected curbside parking about 50%, less than currently exists but enough to serve the needs of motorists who’ll frequent the waterfront regularly and infrequently. Sarah is right on this one. The current design for Alaskan Way will not manage traffic well at all. You armchair urbanist clowns don’t want your pretty balloon to pop.

  • Reasoned

    Still looking for Ignore button.

  • Barleywine

    Sarah is mine, Wells. Back off.

  • Reasoned

    Dan only ever thinks about his pocket book. He works for GGLO, which would only profit from this new space if it is opened up to the developers who hires his firm. I just giggle about how everyone takes his stuff at face value when it’s no different from sales strategies employed by your average used car salesman.

  • David Miller

    The team actually addressed their work on this during the Q&A, noting the space did not really succeed. They talked about their role in it (if I remember correctly they were not there from the beginning) and what they learned from the process.

  • sarah

    1. I live in Lake City, but believe it or not, not everyone thinks only of their own situation. My children are grown up, but many other families with children live more than one bus trip away.
    2. But we’re talking about the waterfront right now.
    3. No, they don’t, and after Metro does its route cuts, they definitely won’t, especially on “family” days: Sundays.
    4. Sure, most of them have cars, but we’re not supposed to USE cars in downtown Seattle, are we? According to most of the people concern-trolling for transit/biking, that is.

  • sarah

    They will probably both be opened/removed by an earthquake, since nothing will be built before one hits, and that will definitely be public space. No one will be able to access it, however, even on a bike.

  • Anonymous

    How about if we build affordable housing in farm country and have the employed picking crops? That would address unemployment and illegal immigration with one stone!

    Or in the alternative, we could hasten Seattle’s depopulation and send them to Kent with Mr. Bailo.

    But seriously, Selma’s right. It does not make sense to cluster your low income housing, especially for the truly indigent, mentally unstable, substance abusing types in our most expensive land and prime tourist areas.

    We should do what Europe does and put the affordable housing outside of the city centers. Pioneer Square will never be what it could be until market rate housing is a large majority of the units.

  • Barleywine

    I think you’re a racist dick, but:

    “It does not make sense to cluster your low income housing, especially for the truly indigent, mentally unstable, substance abusing types in our most expensive land and prime tourist areas.”

    I agree. They don’t want to be there either.
    So, where? WHERE, T? WHERETHEFUCK?

  • Anonymous

    First off: Racist!? WTF? My post had nothing to do with race.

    Second: What do you mean where? The vast majority of the region is outside of the downtown core. There are lots of other places.

    If I were king for a day, I would first distinguish between low income housing for those working their way up–substance-free individuals who are responsible and reliable workers–and the substance abusing folks who need a lot of help.

    The former I would give vouchers to or place in units near public transit so they could get to work, play, and grocery stores reliably.

    For the latter, I would build the units away from other residents. Maybe in SODO or further outside of the core. I would want to make sure the could get help and treatment and that drug dealers don’t have easy access to them. That’s a big problem in places like Belltown, Pioneer Square and Pike Place Market area.

    That would be better for the substance abuser’s chances for recovery and better for civic life in the city and tourism.

  • Barleywine

    “First off: Racist!? WTF? My post had nothing to do with race.”

    Yeah, but plenty of your others have been.
    Or if I’m in a kind mood, classist.

    But I’m not in a kind mood.

    “How about if we build affordable housing in farm country and have the employed picking crops? That would address unemployment and illegal immigration with one stone!”

    How about we have them building railroads? And doing our laundry?
    Ancient Ch!neese secret?

  • Anonymous

    [sarah] You’re factually incorrect, especially on point 3, either intentionally so or you just don’t know our bus system at all. Seattle needs much better connection between neighborhoods, but something we do well is connecting to downtown with buses. Can you name a single Seattle neighborhood that doesn’t have direct bus access downtown? Can you name a single neighborhood within a 30 minute drive in any direction without at least park-and-ride access to a single bus that goes downtown?

  • Tim

    “And doing our laundry”

    Glad you spotted the racist….

    “How about we have them building railroads”

    ….and why not throw out the Nazi strawman at T.Chen as well, suggest he wants to throw homeless in ovens or something. I mean, if you’re going to be an extremist, go all the way and don’t pussy out.

  • Tim

    “Yeah, but plenty of your others have been. ”

    Such as?

    Or is just the imaginary vibration you can that people must be racist enough for the charge to stick? Or maybe you think the homeless are a race?

  • Tim

    “Yeah, but plenty of your others have been. ”

    Such as?

    Or is just the imaginary vibration you can that people must be racist enough for the charge to stick? Or maybe you think the homeless are a race?

  • Anonymous

    You know, you’re really hard to figure out. Sometimes you seem easy going and reasonable, and then other times you just fly off the handle with these kinds of unwarranted and angry accusations. Giving unemployed folks a job picking crops is beyond the pale? I just don’t understand you.

  • Anonymous

    Why are you so wedded to the automobile as the primary means of transport in the dense urban core? Now before you go and make the point that certain disabled people, or that for a family of 7 in a minivan, a vehicle is a more efficient choice, will you recognize that the vast majority of cars on our roads are SOVs? And that if even a fraction of those SOV drivers took public transit to downtown, there would be plenty of parking for those who truly need to drive a vehicle?

  • Anonymous

    Bite me, Barleywad. It’s bums like you that give homeless a bad name.

  • Anonymous

    Yeah, and I also wonder about the trends into the future.The number of seniors living on a very small fixed income is expected to grow rapidly in the next decades due to the baby boom generation, for example. We can’t concentrate on what’s out there right now, especially if it’s unsubsidized older buildings in danger of conversion or in poor condition.

  • Anonymous

    Transit on and to the waterfront is inadequate and reinstalling the streetcar line should be a priority. It’s possible, there is room, and rail on the waterfront is historical.

    Build a road bridge over the RR tracks at Broad that can accommodate streetcar tracks. Turn north on Elliott and cross Western onto 3rd Ave N. Turn east on the most suitable side street and reach Seattle Center. Stop and reverse direction there or route a non-stop turnaround. This would be an ideal extension of the Waterfront Streetcar Line. From the old barn at Broad Street, this is a little more than 1 mile of double-track. The bridge over Broad St RR tracks is long overdue and more necessary than ever.

  • Anonymous

    Comparing SOV motorists to a minivan with 7 passengers is comparing apples-to-oranges. The minivan amounts to mass transit. The needs of a family are much different from a SOV. Sarah is absolutely correct about the need for surface parking and SDOT is duty-bound to engineer a certain level of accommodation for motor vehicle traffic. Unfortunately, SDOT is incompetent and rife with corruption.

  • Anonymous

    “Low income housing” is already a catchall term for a lot of different programs. I highly recommend spending a little time on the LIHI, DESC, HRG, Capitol Hill Housing, etc websites and reading about their different properties. Supportive housing for people with mental disabilities is not the same as

    By the way, back in the 1930s Peter Maurin advocated “agronomic universities” (farm communes) for anyone who wanted to come as part of the Catholic Worker movement. There are a number of them out there, including Bethlehem Farm in Chehalis.

  • Anonymous

    “Low income housing” is already a catchall term for a lot of different programs. I highly recommend spending a little time on the LIHI, DESC, HRG, Capitol Hill Housing, etc websites and reading about their different properties. Supportive housing for people with mental disabilities is not the same as

    By the way, back in the 1930s Peter Maurin advocated “agronomic universities” (farm communes) for anyone who wanted to come as part of the Catholic Worker movement. There are a number of them out there, including Bethlehem Farm in Chehalis.

  • Anonymous

    Eh. Not by choice.

  • Dan Bertolet

    I showed a pic of that parking lot space because it gives an idea right now of how much space there will be all along the waterfront to the south after the viaduct is gone. The point is, picture an empty space of that width stretching from Pike to Yesler – in my view it’s just way too much. I’m not advocating filling all of it in with buildings. Modulating rows of buildings with gaps would be the way to go, I think.

  • Dan Bertolet

    I showed a pic of that parking lot space because it gives an idea right now of how much space there will be all along the waterfront to the south after the viaduct is gone. The point is, picture an empty space of that width stretching from Pike to Yesler – in my view it’s just way too much. I’m not advocating filling all of it in with buildings. Modulating rows of buildings with gaps would be the way to go, I think.

  • Anonymous

    I think the Harbor Steps are a good model. You have dense development with public space. You can use easements, agreements, etc to make sure that the public has sufficient access while at the same time making an area vibrant.

  • Anonymous

    That was my exact point. There are legitimate uses for vehicles, even in dense urban cores. A minivan full of people is one good example. BUT the vast majority of cars on Seattle streets, especially at peak commuting times are SOVs. That is not an ideal situation.

    And again, there is plenty of parking in the downtown core; do we have to take up lots of valuable waterfront space for a parking lot? Remember that folks can park in the more far flung parts of the downtown area such as near the stadiums, Chinatown and Belltown and take free rides in on buses.

  • Anonymous

    I just thought of an analogy. This argument from folks like Sarah and Sirkulat who want us to continue to plan in a way that ensures automobile domination of cities is similar to what the GOP argues about the “death” tax. Oh, those family farms and small businesses!! We must save them. Well, of course, the vast majority of the revenue come from extremely wealthy persons, not Ma and Pa in Iowa. If the GOP really wanted to protect small businesses and farmers they could carve out exemptions or raise the limit slightly, but that’s not what they really want.Same thing with cars. If we continue to spend the bulk of our money on highways, parking lots, and other auto infrastructure, it will be the default mode of travel for most people, even in cities. And we won’t have the money or the political will to build the fast, frequent, efficient, and safe transit systems we need.

  • Anonymous

    I just thought of an analogy. This argument from folks like Sarah and Sirkulat who want us to continue to plan in a way that ensures automobile domination of cities is similar to what the GOP argues about the “death” tax. Oh, those family farms and small businesses!! We must save them. Well, of course, the vast majority of the revenue come from extremely wealthy persons, not Ma and Pa in Iowa. If the GOP really wanted to protect small businesses and farmers they could carve out exemptions or raise the limit slightly, but that’s not what they really want.Same thing with cars. If we continue to spend the bulk of our money on highways, parking lots, and other auto infrastructure, it will be the default mode of travel for most people, even in cities. And we won’t have the money or the political will to build the fast, frequent, efficient, and safe transit systems we need.

  • http://sustainableseattle.blogspot.com/ eldan

    The thing about Miami Beach is that it also has a beach in a climate where people come out specifically for the beach, year-round. That beach is crowded from mid-morning till late at night because it’s an attraction in itself, in a way that we’re not going to get thanks to our weather and the coldness of the water.

  • http://sustainableseattle.blogspot.com/ eldan

    The thing about Miami Beach is that it also has a beach in a climate where people come out specifically for the beach, year-round. That beach is crowded from mid-morning till late at night because it’s an attraction in itself, in a way that we’re not going to get thanks to our weather and the coldness of the water.

  • Anonymous

    You make your point almost perfectly, Chen. But it has to be made in context of the bigger picture, or it alienates those who make the same mistake of viewing the project from a single perspective.

    The current design for Alaskan Way has only one kind of curbside parking, namely, beside busy traffic. The Waterfront requires another kind of curbside parking that serves visiting families like Sarah’s, more like the parking that’s there now. SDOT understands this and is probably considering the possibility of parking lots in parts of the wide plaza. They won’t admit it, but in all likelihood, the plaza will host ‘makeshift’ if not permanent parking. Delivery vehicles must have that sort of direct and immediate access. Thus, the wide plaza idea stems from the need for that sort of parking. I’m still hoping Mayor McGinn can continue shaking of the old guard at SDOT who have more loyalty to WSDOT and highways than Seattle residents.

  • http://catquibbles.blogspot.com serial catowner

    A truly impressive backflip by MJH. Bertolet claims that the waterfront will be underused and needs his proposed development to be a success.

    Then, when you point out that his proposed form of development has been tried in Pioneer Square and not been the success he anticipates, MJH weighs in and says the waterfront is already prosperous and would be a success.

    Then MJH argues that “Views alone are not enough to engage people and entice them to linger…”while most of us would say that a ‘view’ is a place where we are predisposed to linger and contemplate. Naturally the view from sea level will not be the sole or overriding concern here, but it’s a lot more thought-provoking, for many reasons, than the views most of us enjoy from their houses.

    The waterfront does not need to be a place where the city is repaid many times over by the profits in cotton-candy sales. Those joggers and cyclists of today are a lot more real than the hypothetical window-shoppers and diners of tomorrow.

  • LetsGrowSmarter

    The space available is quite modest, given current plans to continue with handing lanes over to through car traffic within it. I really don’t see where you come up with this ‘vast empty space’ – have you no vision?

    CERTAINLY both the piers that exist there (blocking our views) and the exiting ‘Edge’ buildings to East (and Ferry Terminal, etc to West), should and WILL be reconfigured/REDEVELOPED) to provide uses that match/reflect/benefit a people’s park.

    No furniture shops, no office space, but lots of cafe and retail providing what the public at leisure needs: Food, Drink, Frisbees, Bike & Kayak rentals, Busker options, Shade, Rain cover, and Babystrollers . . . what have I forgotten? Water fountains and Bathrooms and a great variety of open space. (hard/soft/beach/brick/brush/natural habitat/cartwheel capable lawns).

    Steinbrueck Park is a great example of that which does not work: three sides car traffic and/or parking, one side Hard Commercial Building Facade, with ZERO interlocking space with the amazing park potential to its South.

    Want failure or lots of bums, however you care to label the outcome? Then replicate Steinbrueck Park. (no bike, walking, nor trolley ‘throughways’ there, either, which results in handing the indigents a day pass for taking over the place/little ‘diversity’ of folks with jobs)

  • Mike Orr

    It should be obvious: how is a barista supposed to afford a $700 apartment, and even that is at the bottom of the scale. Most apartments are in the $800-1100 range. Even if they can afford to pay the rent and deposit, they’ll be living paycheck to paycheck and not saving for future medical needs or education.

  • Mike Orr

    “We should do what Europe does and put the affordable housing outside of the city centers.”

    Europe also has comprehensive transit to the edges of the metropolis. Will we imitate that too?

  • Mike Orr

    The point is not Dan’s pocketbook. The point is whether what he says is good for the city. I think most of it is, although I don’t necessarily endorse this particular view of the waterfront. Maybe a 50/50 combination of public plazas and smallish private buildings would be best. But anything would be an improvement.

  • Mike Orr

    One of Sarah’s buses is no doubt the 99, the waterfront bus. So she’s entirely correct that it takes at least two buses to reach the waterfront. Children and baby carriages would have trouble with the stairs, and the two elevators are at inconvenient locations and not well known.

  • Mike Orr

    The waterfront is not just any space. Some of the visions being proposed are about making it into THE premier space and center of the city. Seattle doesn’t have one of those right now. The Space Needle will remain the primary tourist attraction, but this would orient residents toward the waterfront and make people go there often, at least some people.

  • Johns

    and the beauty of that approach is, the City gets to dictate the terms to the developers…if you want to build here, this is what you do. Period.

  • Johns

    Hopefully we’ll get rid of the 99 and get a streetcar back on the waterfront again. I think any big look at the waterfront design has to look very hard at pedestrian access up and down the hill to downtown, where the majority of regional transit connections are located (figuring the streetcar would connect to King Street for Sounder/Amtrak service). Hong Kong’s mid-levels escalators, more elevators, heck, maybe rope tows – let’s get creative.

  • Kathryn

    I’m guessing that some people, who I would never wish to meet in real life, do not know who I am. People who know me, know me. Publicola has my email address, I sign with my real name, and I am consistent in my views.

    Message to self: Continue to comment sparsely, remember not to feed the trolls, and do not sign up and allow web services to ‘connect me’ to myself for the benefit of others. I really do not need any more FBriend requests.

  • E. W.

    Why not let the design team suggest where/if development would be useful in the space? They will know best what will work with the space they are designing. If they think select development would benefit the space, then the land could be leased to developers. If housing is provided, it could have a percentage of affordable units as a requirement. The building(s) could also provide parking for visitors – alleviating the need for extra vehicle lanes. The tax/lease revenue, together with improvments of existing properties, would help offset the cost of this project.

  • Barleywine

    “You know, you’re really hard to figure out. Sometimes you seem easy going and reasonable, and then other times you just fly off the handle with these kinds of unwarranted and angry accusations. Giving unemployed folks a job picking crops is beyond the pale? I just don’t understand you.”

    This is the way I feel about you, too.
    I agree with almost everything you say, except when it comes to people you seem to feel are lower than you.

    For one thing, I’m a drunk. So I’m lower than you.
    But I can’t help feeding the raccoons when they ask. And yesterday I saw a spot in the shower that might have been mold, but it was a moth. So I couldn’t start the shower without guiding (so I wouldn’t mess up his wing dust) the thing out of the shower first. And I can’t turn over in bed if there’s a cat between my legs. I can’t.

    This is the thing many of your posts have in common.
    You would just turn on the shower.

    You would send the moth down the drain without thought.
    True, you are more normal. Maybe I’ll be like that some day.

    I’m sorry for the handle-flying, because otherwise I like you.

  • Don’t Tase Me Bro’!

    A barista? Get a real job and then we can talk or else move to Tukwilla and take the train. No one owes a eff’ing white middle class college kid with a s****y job an apartment.

    Now make that a double latte son!

  • Don’t Tase Me Bro’!

    How about a decent aquarium like that have in Monterey, not one that thinks peering into brown waters at brown fish taken from a few feet away in Puget Sound, is interesting.

  • Don’t Tase Me Bro’!

    ….and what is it about the divers in the tank in the Window on Washington Waters? I know this is Seattle, but do the HAVE to be fat chicks? When I’m there, bored out of my mind with the kids, can’t they find a honey to do the show?

  • share the load…

    Here’s how: get four other baristas and rent a group house in one of seattle’s many single family neighborhoods and bus or bike to work. there are tons of houses right now for $1500 to 2000. They’re not entitled to a 800 sqaure foot apartment downtown, in the very area with the highest land prices for 900 miles in all directions (except vancouver BC). Take a freaking bus like the rest of the world.

  • Notinthefurniturebusiness

    “converting from furniture and other randomness to more retail oriented activity”

    You mean whatever it is you want right now? Retail furniture businesses are “random” but hipster hangouts or tourist draws are “more retail oriented”? That part of town has been a retail furniture district for a long time. Why should those businesses have to move?

  • Notinthefurniturebusiness

    Yes, the potential for national chains moving in is tremendous; public/private partnerships with them, and of course some TIF, would be very exciting.

  • Notinthefurniturebusiness

    The RK Greenway would be ideal in Seattle, as it would jibe well with the city government’s Official Fear of Trees.

  • http://miamisouthbeachhotels.org Izay Cabrera

    It’s great that the City has hired an inspiring design team for the central waterfront, but regardless of who designs it, future success will be severely jeopardized unless we get past the misguided notion that there should be no new development.

    Warm Regards,
    Izay Cabrera
    Miami South Beach Hotels

  • http://miamisouthbeachhotels.org Izay Cabrera

    It’s great that the City has hired an inspiring design team for the central waterfront, but regardless of who designs it, future success will be severely jeopardized unless we get past the misguided notion that there should be no new development.

    Warm Regards,
    Izay Cabrera
    Miami South Beach Hotels

  • http://miamisouthbeachhotels.org Izay Cabrera

    It’s great that the City has hired an inspiring design team for the central waterfront, but regardless of who designs it, future success will be severely jeopardized unless we get past the misguided notion that there should be no new development.

    Warm Regards,
    Izay Cabrera
    Miami South Beach Hotels