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Founded in January 2009, PubliCola is a blog about Seattle written by journalists who are dedicated to non-partisan, original daily reporting that prioritizes a balanced approach to news. Started by longtime local editor and award-winning reporter Josh Feit, PubliCola is the first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol.

PubliCola was off and running. In June 2009, PubliCola hired another award-winning journalist, super-sourced Seattle city hall reporter Erica C. Barnett.

People were afraid that blogging would change journalism. Instead, we believe journalism can change blogging. Twenty-first century journalism may look and feel different, and yes Erica isn't afraid to get cranky, but we're committed to making sure online news still delivers independent, reliable, even-keeled coverage. And most of all, we're committed to making sure the coverage sparks honest civic debate.

Bringing you cola for the people, PubliCola is named after Publius Valerius PubliCola, the alias for the authors of the Federalist Papers—the original bloggers.

The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

Car Capacity Is Not Sacred

[Editor's note: Dan Bertolet, AKA HugeassCity, returns from summer vacation with a bang. Here, he comes out swinging against expanding car capacity. Welcome back, Dan!]

Supporters of “road diets” are quick to point out that even when car travel lanes are eliminated to make room for bikes, not to worry, there will still be sufficient capacity for cars. And even though that has been blindingly indisputable in several recent Seattle cases, the naysayers howled away nonetheless—a sad commentary on how deeply in denial our culture still is when it comes to the problem of car dependence.

But to me, the dynamic of that debate also reveals a troubling acquiescence—by both sides—to an ostensibly inviolable ground rule: Car capacity is sacred.

It may well be that in today’s political climate, the only way cycling and pedestrian advocates will get the infrastructure they want is if they assure the masses that car travel will not be impacted in any way. But the trouble is, that position suppresses the reality that cars are in fundamental conflict with walking, biking, and transit.

In his book Green Metropolis, David Owen captures that conflict:

In urban areas that are dense enough to support efficient public transit systems, officials often negate their own efforts to increase usage, by simultaneously spending huge sums to make it easier for people to get around in cars. When a city’s streets or highways become crowded, for example, the standard response is to create additional capacity by building new roads or widening existing ones. Projects like these almost always end up making the original problem worse—while also usually taking years to complete and costing many millions of dollars—because they generate what transportation planners call “induced traffic”: every mile of new open roadway encourages existing users to make more car trips, lures drivers away from other routes, and tempts transit riders to return to their automobiles, with the eventual result that the new roads become at least as clogged as the old roads, though at higher traffic volumes, and the efficiency of transit declines. These negative outcomes are compounded by the fact that, in the short term, temporarily improved traffic flow reduces commute times for drivers on the expanded roadways, making it easier for people to justify building houses, malls, and office buildings in formerly inaccessible outlying areas—and , in turn, eventually makes all the original problems worse, as the places where commuters sleep and shop drift farther and farther apart, and new feeder roads are built to serve them.

Note that the passage above is just as valid if you substitute “walking” or “biking” for “transit.”

The crucial point is that car infrastructure not only encourages driving, it also sabotages mobility by any other means. It’s a vicious cycle: roads beget sprawl begets car dependence begets roads, and so on. And the result is an ever-expanding built environment in which walking, biking, and transit are not viable options.

The only way to break the vicious cycle is to invest our limited transportation dollars in infrastructure that will help make walking, biking, and transit more attractive than driving. And here’s where we need to start being honest with ourselves: If we are serious about creating a city in which significant numbers of trips are made by modes other than cars, then we will have to accept that driving will become less convenient than it is today.

As the Puget Sound region continues to grow—and we know it will—we will be faced with a choice: Continue to build more roads and thereby preclude progress on alternative transportation, or stop building roads and accept that there is a limit to the number of cars we can accommodate if we hope to a create a balanced, sustainable transportation system and the compact land use patterns that support it.

All the evidence I’ve seen overwhelmingly supports the latter choice. That is not to say the transition will be totally painless. It won’t. But wishing for a pony isn’t going to solve the massive future challenges we face. And the alternative is to keep spending our money to make our problems worse, dig our hole deeper, and compound the long-term misery.

We can’t have it both ways. There can be no meaningful progress on alternative transportation until we stop acting as if car capacity is sacred. Rising energy costs and cultural evolution can both be expected to help move us in that direction eventually. And both local and state policies have established the goal of reducing driving.

But so far, the only truly effective means we have to reduce reliance on cars—curtailing capacity—is still a political non-starter. And that attitude needs to change fast. Because the effects of transportation infrastructure investments play out at the regional scale over decades-long timeframes.  The time to starting breaking the vicious cycle is now.




  • Anonymous

    Its not about car capacity being sacred its about the fact that it is still the way the vast majority of people get around. Making their lives more difficult is not going to get them on transit when there is insufficient transit service and despite the proclamations of bike evangelicals, thats not an option for a lot of people either.

    Instead of removing capacity how about we actually focus on getting more rail and bus service built out first. Otherwise you’re just going to piss people off and they are not going to vote for people who might favor transit if they fear it will make their lives worse. No about of moralizing will change that.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Giffy is right. Limiting or reducing capacity, or inducing people in the abstract is not the goal, anymore than it is for a church leader to say “don’t sin in order to get into Heaven”. You don’t win anything doing that except to sound off in useless echo chambers: churches and blogs.

    What is more important is giving people alternatives to cars, and no, not bicycles. You can’t do kids and grocery shopping for more than a meal or two for one or two people on a bike. Create the good alternatives, and people will drive less. Saying people should drive less 10-20 times per year accomplishes nothing beyond coming up with new and creative ways to say people should drive less.

    What the site needs is a more mainstream-aimed version of what Seattle Transit Blog does. Give good reasons to expand proper mass transit (and again, you guys ALL need to lay off the bikes–bikes are a far distant second in both value and importance to rail and bus).

  • Anonymous

    Ah, the call of the car addict. “I’d take a bus, if only our transit service was better.” How good would our transit system have to be for you to support removing car capacity? We already have one of the most substantial bus systems in the US for our size. How about if we had Vancouver-level service? New York? Tokyo? I’d bet after we spent those billions you’d still tell us that people prefer cars (especially since the lines would be mostly empty).

    How do you get people to vote for more transit – which is the prerequisite to your plan? Make driving inconvenient. More transit service will not convince people to vote for removing road capacity. But removing road capacity could convince people to build more transit.

  • Anonymous

    I mostly agree, but our current traffic problems are not due to overall lack of capacity anyway; it’s due to congestion on specific arterials and highways, largely during commute times. In other words, creating some bike boulevards on Beacon Hill won’t prevent people from driving over to a friends house there because there’s plenty of capacity, but it is impossible to build enough capacity for everyone to head to the mall for holiday shopping in December.

    By the way, there actually is one other method of reducing traffic: correctly pricing road space with methods such as tolls, parking fees, and congestion pricing
    http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/07/26/what-solves-congestion/

  • Anonymous

    “Saying people should drive less 10-20 times per year accomplishes nothing”

    I’m pretty sure Dan is advocating removing car capacity, which absolutely would accomplish something (did you read the article?).

  • Anonymous

    “Saying people should drive less 10-20 times per year accomplishes nothing”

    I’m pretty sure Dan is advocating removing car capacity, which absolutely would accomplish something (did you read the article?).

  • Jennifer B.

    David Owen’s point is that, if you build transit or create pedestrian- and bike-friendly infrastructure, some former drivers will walk or bike or ride instead of driving. And as soon as you get them off the road, you create a vacancy for some other driver to fill. Which means that in the end, you are making driving easier by building transit if you don’t simultaneously reduce car capacity. If your goal is to give people more options, that might be fine. But if your goal is to reduce energy consumption, reduce dependence on foreign oil, reduce global warming, reduce negative health impacts associated with air pollution and sedentary lifestyles, free up more of society’s wealth to spend on necessities or amenities not associated with automobiles, then you have still failed.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Yes, I read it, and Dan himself conceded it’s a political non-starter beyond diets, because–ding, ding–it is a non-starter. That’s my point. I love his writing (and Josh’s, who is a bit graceful in discussing transit, and ECB, who is a bit more of a sledgehammer), but the fact of the matter is as I just edited my reply, it doesn’t do anything.

    But yes, if you could magically reduce capacity, it would accomplish something. I forgot to pick up my magic wand at Ollivander’s, however.

    I’m all for nuclear energy replacing fossil fuels as much as France has converted, but I know that’s a non-starter in the US, so I never both to bring it up. The same thing with reducing car capacity. This is a much bigger fight than a Seattle fight or a King County fight and is a much more multi-faceted problem. That’s all I’m saying: you can’t stop cars today, or tomorrow, or in the early 2020s barring peak oil biting us. My point is that in the meanwhile, it’s far more productive to take on winnable fights that incrementally lead up to generational victories.

  • Anonymous

    Ah, the call of the car addict.

    I take the bus when it works, like to work sometimes, but I value my time. I am not going to take the bus to Ballard from my house when it takes 2-3 times as long and requires me to walk a half mile (though on a nice day I’ve walked the whole way). Our transit system might be good comparatively, but then most transit systems in cities our size are pretty poor.

    I don’t think we should be adding much road capacity, instead focusing on improving what we have, like fixing Mercer, putting 99 underground to open up the waterfront, and doing more paving work. And there are places where removing lanes for better pedestrian, bus, and bike access makes sense, but the overall idea that we can gridlock our way into less car use is doomed to fail.
    How do you get people to vote for more transit

    We pretty much just do. I can’t recall a transit plan failing in Seattle aside form the monorail, but that was a rather unique case.

    Instead of trying to swipe some money from museums and complaining about non-existent requirements that the the City pay for tunnel cost overruns why is McGinn not going all out to get a light rail plan developed and passed? The only people that need to be convinced are in government. I know I would happily vote for more taxes to fund more transit.

    But removing road capacity could convince people to build more transit.

    Do you think people are stupid and are not going to see whats going on? Most people don’t like to be coerced into things and tend not to respond well.

  • Nemo

    Agreed with Giffy and Joe. I think some deliberately refuse to realize the current attitude (and that of the past ten years), is more cart before horse, because they are fortunate to live in their own self-realizing bubble. Especially regarding bicycles.

    Some also miss the fact that when you do have viable transit alternatives, those people who choose to fill that “vacancy” will be able to use the existing roads, without more expansion, and without adding anything to congestion. Net effect is more likely a wash at worst, less congestion due to fewer people filling the vacancies than those who ride viable transit that gets them there faster than an automobile.

  • Anonymous

    There is not an infinite supply of people.

    People will generally pick the most cost effective mode of transportation considering convenience and time. In say New York that is most often transit. In Seattle its most often a car. The fact that New York or Tokyo has a great transit system does not mean that more people drive. They did not reduce car capacity, they just mostly held it constant. Which in Seattle given our geography is pretty much a given.

  • Anonymous

    [Nemo] You’re looking at the problem of solving congestion (good luck with that). By adding capacity through transit alternatives, you’re actually increasing the number of people that commute rather than living close to work. Yes, the end result is the same amount of congestion, but a net increase in energy consumed in travel, use of resources, sprawl, loss of land, etc.

  • Anonymous

    Looks like Dan didn’t get his broken record player built during his break.

  • Kathryn

    Bottom line is we do not have an infinite supply of land, but we seem to be building suburbs that act as if we do. Far cry from the close in Los Angeles (yes LA) suburb I grew up in, where the addition of a trolley line, prevention of malls, and constraints on the urban boundary would have meant it continued as a walkable town with a viable town center. We walked and rode our bikes everywhere.

    I have noted that suburban Maryland is now rife with megamansion subdivisions, yeah and some requisite preserved land around the watershed accessible only from the private property of said megamansion owners. Result is wider roads. They seem to be doing grand money wise — build mega mansions for the rich, increaase the tax base, et voila! Lots of big wide roads. Meanwhile, I see no children walking to school, there is no way for them to walk to school without risking their lives.

    THAT is the stuff that needs to be addressed, a focus on re-engineering suburban towns as opposed to the perpetuation of the concentric zone model of a huge center city that objectively throws off that type of offal.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr Baker

    Well, no, without a viable option people will do what they are doing without regard for how difficult you make it.

    I shopped for and purchased a home because I would be able to get rid of my car and take the bus.
    I did one of the two best solutions, either within walking distance to work, or to transit that takes me to work.

    Metro cut back.
    I own a car now that I did not own before.
    Moving at the whim of Metro is not a practical solution.

    If the bus service returned tomorrow I would dump my car, again.

    Making it more difficult for me will just piss me off.
    If the solutions do not present a viable option then don’t expect me to support it.

  • Nemo

    I’m not sure you are really referring to the net increase in energy consumption due to population increase, rather than energy consumed by more people driving single occupancy automobiles. I thought to one of the main points of getting more people to commute via mass transit was to reduce energy consumption?

    I think it’s safe to say most people would choose to live closer to work (if they had that choice), and take mass transit, if mass transit was faster in-city, than in the exurbs.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Part of what you’re alluding to is the other thing that’s conveniently skipped over. While I love the idea of reengineering cities and communities to do them ‘right’, it’s nothing more than an intellectual exercise, and never can be anything more than that, since the government can’t simply take people’s land, homes, and buildings, and rejigger the whole layout of the world. Yeah, from an eco-standpoint, it sucks that people out in some areas get 3/4 of an acre of lawn. But under our present society and Constitution, it’s theirs. Inversely, getting people to move isn’t feasible. Would you give up your houses now to go condo or rental downtown? I wouldn’t if I had a little 1/4 acre lot.

    It’s all just skipping over addressing real solutions, built around an ideological unwillingness to compromise the purity of the ideas, even if it would possibly mean winning 20, 30, or 40 years down the road.

    It’s like weight loss: I can diet hard and lose 40 pounds in 6 months. Or, I can very gradually modify the way I eat, and gradually ramp up exercise, to lose the 40 pounds over 2 years. Which is the better solution?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    It’s not just what you’re saying, though. City life IS expensive. If my wife and I had to live on $60,000 annual between us, supporting us plus 1-2 children, where would our dollar get the greatest value? Seattle, Shoreline, or further out in the exurbs? The conditions on the ground as far as jobs and income disparity play a role here too (CEO compensation versus regular workers; the destruction of the middle class under dangerous conservative/Republican social and fiscal policies, etc.). Like I said, it’s a much bigger and complex mess than just standing in the Church of Change and denouncing cars.

  • Anonymous

    “I am not going to take the bus to Ballard from my house when it takes 2-3 times as long and requires me to walk a half mile”

    (head hits desk) You do get the irony of this argument, right? Our transit isn’t as fast as driving a car, so you’re going to keep driving your car. How, exactly, do we change our car culture when we’re up against that? (hint: good urban design, shaped by road policies)

    In your case in particular, why don’t you ride your bike? It takes me less than 10 minutes to go 2.5 miles at a speed that allows me to wear business clothes (I call it bike walking, as opposed to bike running that most people do – if you start breathing heavy you’re going too fast). I’m sure your 8 miles wouldn’t take you as long as the bus without breaking a sweat.

    “Most people don’t like to be coerced into things and tend not to respond well.” Who’s coercing? People know they should drive less, and their elected officials have put that in writing. That can’t happen by personal choice alone – we need real policies that change behavior.

  • Anonymous

    I see our solutions as those that take 20 years to show results. I’m not sure I see anything in your ideas that would help the situation at all – 10 years from now or 200. More transit without less roads = more sprawl. More sprawl = more demand for roads. Tell me what I’m missing.

  • Jakers

    Both of those cities are much older than Seattle, too. they were already dealing with the problem when it wasn’t transit vs. car, they were dealing with transit vs. horse. NYC started its subway over 100 years ago. It was already constrained when the car came about, here in Seattle we had the room to accommodate the car and so we tore up a lot of our mass transit rather than continuing to build it out.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    This is what the far-side of your side simply DOESN’T get or won’t acknowledge.

    “(hint: good urban design, shaped by road policies)”

    The former can be done; the latter won’t be undone. The city doesn’t have the power to move people’s homes or businesses, and all the land in Seattle is allocated already. Road diets, sure, but the point of those is safety, not faster travel.

    “In your case in particular, why don’t you ride your bike?”

    What if he’s taking his kid to Ballard? Or the family for dinner? Or to Golden Gardens? Or to Safeway to buy a week’s groceries for Mom, Day, and 2-3 children? Bike it? Bus it and have your 7-year old tugging along 2-3 grocery bags himself?

  • Anonymous

    I challange your assumption that city life is expensive. The cost of a commute is far from trivial.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Having ultra-dense and routine mass transit in-city is not sprawl. I’ve argued again and again that there is NO budget now or anytime soon for the equivalent of Metro out in Enumclaw or east or west or anywhere but where Metro is, and that’s how it is in the REST of the nation and world. We live in our cloistered King County vantage and conveniently ignore how the rest of the world unfortunately is. You build up super-good transit in Seattle, that I can use to get from any point in the city to any other point of the city as FAST as driving, and most people will have no need for cars, EXCEPT when they’re doing shopping and dealing with kids or groups.

    Which all the ultra-advocates have to acknowledge in their schemes as a requirement. You can’t bike or bus yourself to the grocery store to buy food to feed 4-5 for a week.

    Building up a world-class transit system in the City of Seattle does not lead to more sprawl. We can’t get rid of our current sprawl, so what you do is work to get them to bus into the city.

    The continued myopic I’m Rightness here is laughable. Also, the fact that every time I bring up the model of NYC’s Metro North line as an example, I’ve been lambasted, but here we go: that’s how you transport people from outlying areas into a city and do it right. You don’t freeze out the roads; you don’t freeze out shit. You stop being a cute little anti-car wannabe fascist (in ideals) because you can’t get people out of their cars today. You give the people however such a compellingly better alternative, that they’ll wise up. People still drive into Manhattan daily for a hundred valid reasons in their SOVs. The point of the exercise is that the bulk of them don’t.

  • Anonymous

    Yes, commuting by public transit is more efficient than SOVs. But it’s much, much more efficient to reduce the commute completely. Urban homes are smaller, use much less energy, and encourage far less driving. But our region is quickly sprawling, with population in Seattle growing much slower than the region as a whole. Adding more commuting capacity – be it new roads or new buses – encourages people to live far from work.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Meanwhile, in the real world, how much space can I buy in Seattle for a $200,000 mortgage vs a $200,000 mortgage 15-20 miles north of the Seattle border? Some of us would prefer to raise kids someday with little things like a yard to sit in, versus a tiny condominium to sit in.

    Your argument that a heavier mortgage is better than a long commute is laughable as well. Sure, an extra $400 in mortgage per month: why not! Oh wait; that’s $400/month less for food, clothing, schooling, and college funds for my future children. But I get to take the bus to work instead of losing 3/hours a week in the car!

    I grew up in Connecticut; a land where you drive EVERYWHERE. Yes, it sucks, but it’s not the sort of thing that’s the end of the world if you have no choice.

  • Mikeg

    as someone who has lived in they city with kids for years making less than and around 60k, i can assure this premise is absurd. the amount of time i get to spend with my kids because we live and work downtown is priceless compared to the 30+ hours it would take to commute monthly to and from shoreline or further out.

    city life isn’t expensive – unless you want to own 2 cars and an overvalued house with a view.

  • Anonymous

    “The city doesn’t have the power to move people’s homes or businesses” The city has the power to upzone, allowing developers to start catching supply up with demand. The state has the power to stop increasing road capacity, and maybe decrease it some. That would drive demand for urban homes faster. Note none of this moves anyone’s home. It would just put incentives in the right places to stop making bad choices.

    re: biking. It was a question. Maybe he needs to carry around his father-in-law who’s in an iron lung built into the back of a Hummer. We can ask questions all day, but it’s not terribly helpful.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Again: where are all these affordable city homes for those of us that have no desire to raise kids in apartments or condos?

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    You are missing that I am sending you this message from 20 years in the future, where people take into account transit when figuring out where to live, and the decision to eliminate that option is beyond the control of the individual. Changing the traffic pattern of individuals will have the same effect in the future (which is where I am).

  • Anonymous

    [Joe] We might have been talking past each other. I fully support in-city transit, and agree it doesn’t create sprawl. I thought you were arguing for regional transit.

  • Anonymous

    How, exactly, do we change our car culture when we’re up against that?

    By making transit better! The 48 is a good example. Its frequent and gets where its going about as fast as a car. Same with light rail. I don’t drive to the airport because the train is much much faster. Plus once you get closer the money savings matter too. If getting to Ballard took 30 minutes even though driving was 20 I’d bus every time.

    In your case in particular, why don’t you ride your bike?

    I don’t own one and don’t bike.

    People know they should drive less, and their elected officials have put that in writing.

    Oh well then. I am sure that since their elected officials told them to it will all be fine.

    You go ahead and try to make people suffer until they go along and we’ll see how long it takes before driving friendly politicians are elected in droves.

  • Anonymous

    Your mortgage argument makes no sense. Saving $500k over a 30 year mortgage doesn’t all come on the last day. It means you’re saving money every week.

    Re: condo vs. house with a yard. Look at my link. Sure the example’s an extreme one, but with the result of being able to spend an extra half million dollars on a home. That’s not a tiny condo, that’s a large house with a large yard (even in Seattle). Of course the benefits are much smaller if you’re commuting from 20 miles N of Seattle instead of the far exurbs, but the housing price difference is smaller too.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Local, in-city, but I am also a proponent of regional inbound-to-the-city transit. Like, where I grew up: I lived my entire life a 5-15 minute drive from any number of train stations, each of which on an express AM run was a 55 minute shot into Grand Central Station. I’ve known people all my life that commute for their 9-to-5 jobs in New York City, 90 miles away, and the system works pefectly.

    We’re not even talking scales like that here–90 miles north would be Bellingham, Chehalis in the south, Cle Elum east. I’m talking about transit for places like Shoreline; Federal Way, Tacoma furthest out.

  • Anonymous

    New York actually has much wider roads downtown and plenty of freeways. We really do not have a terribly extensive road system compared to most cities. Its rare that a road is more than two lanes, we have few arterials and even I-5 through the City is pretty constrained.

  • Anonymous

    But the east coast metro regions, especially within 90 miles from NYC, is sprawl central. Nature is all but gone, homes are large and inefficient. Sure people take trains to work, but they drive everywhere else. I don’t see that as a great model to imitate.

  • Anonymous

    If you look at the lifecycle cost of a home, rather than the purchase price, they’re all around you. Seattle is filled with affordable (and I’d say undervalued) single family homes. But people look at the sticker price and drive outward because it’s cheaper. That’s like buying the cheapest air conditioner you can buy, even though you’ll spend triple the price in electricity over the next 5 years – just because people do it doesn’t make it smart.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Sprawl central? Perhaps, and like here, ingrained by generations of people having lived and settled outside of the cites, which are largely there to stay. Have you ever been out there? This route:

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=stamford+ct&daddr=New+Rochelle,+NY&hl=en&geocode=FfZscgIdUuOd-ykLvMeyZKHCiTFutzSci4ZDhw%3BFYBCcAIdrSua-ym1VrrViY3CiTGi2n5qO8N6zw&gl=us&mra=ls&sll=40.893272,-73.747101&sspn=0.364895,0.891953&ie=UTF8&ll=40.93634,-73.449097&spn=0.729311,1.783905&z=10

    From the edge of NYC out to Stamford, is as dense as anything in our corner of King County. When I say the Metro North route, I’m talking specifically about the lines that run from NYC/Grand Central up the NY/LI Sound coast, up along the CT coast to New Haven. It’s function is to feed all the commuters, daily, down into the city. Those trains in the AM are practically overflowing with people commuting on them.

    My point is that: if we had a convenient way for commuters to get to the city–and I don’t mean build up something of that magnitude, but just lots of buses bringing them in conveniently–it would be good. The guy that lives in Everett but works in Seattle: let him park up there, and bus down to Seattle. Like the girl in my neighborhood (NW Magnolia, up by the apartments) that drives her car to the bus line and parks on the street to take the 24 or 33 into downtown.

    Someone asked her about that once; she lives out in the boonies of Magnolia, a 2 mile walk over tall hills. She has to dress very nicely for work yet has no shower, so hoofing it or biking it to the bus is impossible for her. So she mini park and rides. Examples and ideas like that; working with the commuters to supplement their needs and routines, not to subvert their ability to drive conveniently.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Yes, and most of the affordable homes in-Seattle in our theoretical price point are down by White Center/Roxbury. The neighborhoods with the higher burglary rates, schools that do worse on funding and performance (and arts programs, and sports and etc. than their suburban peers), and the higher tax rates that go with it.

    On the schools thing, I speak from some experience, with my wife and I both having split our schooling between urban and suburban, and my knowing a *lot* of teachers. The strength of an education from a less crowded school is better, and that’s a fact. Seattle vs Shoreline:

    http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/summary.aspx?groupLevel=District&schoolId=100&reportLevel=District&orgLinkId=100&yrs=&year=2009-10

    http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/summary.aspx?groupLevel=District&schoolId=115&reportLevel=District&orgLinkId=100&yrs=&year=2009-10

    It is what it is.

  • Nemo

    Without some actual data to support it, there are a lot of assumptons flying around.

    Are the savings in transportation costs larger than the increased mortgage (and taxes), to live in-city? Certainly not after the recent bubble. Homes are still OVERPRICED here, especially for what you get for it. Time spent commuting is an intangible, but certainly a quality of life issue that can be priceless. Same for the area you can afford to either rent or buy in.

    Thing is, an efficent alternative mass transit system might not make living in the city cheaper, but it would not penalize you as the status quo does now in comparison to the exurbs.

  • Anonymous

    It’ not irony. It’s logic. I do ride the bus everyday, but it costs me an hour of my time relative to driving.

  • Nemo

    Although your cost comparison seems superfically compelling, it ignores the fact the you don’t spend 500K when you BUY the car (unless you buy a really nice Tesla–another implication entirely), not to mention the down payment and the fact that someone with the average KC income could would not qualify for a loan that size (at least not since the bubbble).

    So your “savings” are indeed real, but out of context to buying a house with it. It would work much more in favor if you rented, were single, and had no children.

  • Nemo

    Although your cost comparison seems superfically compelling, it ignores the fact the you don’t spend 500K when you BUY the car (unless you buy a really nice Tesla–another implication entirely), not to mention the down payment and the fact that someone with the average KC income could would not qualify for a loan that size (at least not since the bubbble).

    So your “savings” are indeed real, but out of context to buying a house with it. It would work much more in favor if you rented, were single, and had no children.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    If I had viable public transportation then this would be true. But I don’t so, my suv (Escape hybrid gets way better better gas milage than any subcompact I have ever had) is my only viable commuting option, no matter how many bike lanes or west side light rail cars you want me to pay for.

    BTW, this message is from 54 years in the future, Hollar Lake, don’t do it, the Seattle annex deal will never deliver the promised sidewalks! Noooooooooo!
    Had I known now, what I knew then, I woulda shoulda coulda moved a few blocks north and saved money on taxes in Shoreline.

    Really, a lot of land North of 130th should just “become” part of Shoreline. We would at least have a reasonable chance at sidewalks within my lifetime.

  • Jennifer B.

    Many condos, townhomes, etc. have patios or decks for sitting outside. Most homeowners HATE doing yard work and hate the expense and time involved in maintaining that space. Good public spaces near where people live are often a better choice than a private yard for playgrounds, picnics, sunbathing, dog exercising, and the like. There are thousands of people raising children right here in Seattle in dense housing and their children are not suffering. There are innumerable benefits to society and to the individual when the public provides what suburban homeowners have bought for themselves. Good urban design and walk/bike/ride transportation options can make dense living attractive to all but the die-hard. Remember the old Pepto Bismol commercial: Try it, you’ll like it. Well, reducing car capacity is what we are going to have to do if we want to get consumers of car culture to try something different.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/6SAQ6R2ZBGQQNNBXVJZG66K6KY Mickymse

    Joe, if you feel entitled to have a house with your own private yard in it, then yes you will have to move out of the city. But that doesn’t make it a better choice than interacting with other children and neighbors in your local park or museum instead.

    And the added commute cost IS real $$$ in your pocket. The added cost of an additional car and insurance and wear & tear and gas is easily $8,000 per year. You and your family could take real advantage of that extra money by choosing to live “closer in.”

  • Anonymous

    Yes, qualifying for the morgage is an issue (if only the banks considered the cost of a commute…). I addressed that in my write up, and point out the general lesson “if you can find a city house that you can live with and afford (even with a larger mortgage than you’re comfortable with), it’s a strongly better deal than anything you can get out in the country.”

    Can’t afford the $330k house in Ballard? Start off with something smaller – maybe a townhouse. You’ll be saving so much more money without the commute that you’ll be in the larger home with a yard in no time.

  • Anonymous

    [Nemo] “Certainly not after the recent bubble. Homes are still OVERPRICED here” ??? a) housing prices dropped more out in the suburbs than Seattle, b) you think you know more than the housing market? Homes are exactly correctly prices, thanks to the wonders of the market.

  • Dr. J

    I want a pony!!!!, well as yogi bera might have said, nobody drives down that road anymore, its too crowded….

  • Jeremywreal

    “You need full-on transit.”

    Oh my god! All the way! So vivid! So intense!!

  • Anonymous

    [Joe] Ballard, with good schools and good transit, has 2-bd homes for about $330k right now. Sure that’s more than 20 miles north of Seattle, but the difference will pay back very quickly.

  • Anonymous

    [Joe] Is that a park and ride I see at that stop? Whatever density Stamford (and surrounding area, wherever those cars are driving in from) has because of it’s rail to NYC pales to the density where those families would have lived without that rail (somewhere close in to NYC). And each of those commuters would have an extra 2 hours of life back each day (=14% of their non-working waking life).

  • Anc

    Until last year Seattle had the largest bus only transit systems in the US.

    And it isn’t just about making driving inconvenient, it’s about improving transit. I’m not for taking away General Purpose lanes just to give Single Occupancy Vehicle drivers the finger, but what about removing GP capacity to put in Business And Transit lanes”? I think that is the line where you separate the SOV apologists from the Transit cautious.

  • drive until you qualify

    Bankers who make loans don’t give a good goddamn how much you would theoretically save on transportation when you take on an in-city mortgage that costs Joe’s example of $400 more per month. The 500K you cite in response to his example won’t sway them, either.

  • Anc

    Polls show that Nuclear is not as much of a non-starter as you believe.

    In fact the TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) is in the process of completing construction of the partially built Bellefonte Plant in Alabama. Just two weeks ago the TVA authorized a quarter Billion to continue development.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellefonte_Nuclear_Generating_Station

    (Sidenote, Bellefonte is the same design as the also partially completed WNP-1)

  • http://www.politickling.com/ poliTICKLING

    What world are people living in who can’t acknowledge that city life is more expensive than the suburbs?! The argument that people only move outside of Seattle’s urban core to manifest their selfish desire to destroy the earth by buying a McMansion is just ridiculous.

    Believe it or not, there are entire classes of people who don’t have the choice to buy a condo in Seattle or a big house with a big yard in Auburn. They can’t afford either, so they rent, and live in the place with the lowest overall cost of living, which is (the majority of the time) not Seattle.

    Another newsflash is that people can’t always choose where they work. I’ve seen several comments say people should decide to work closer to where they live, as if it just a simple choice. If you are unemployed and apply for every job between within a 50 mile radius and the only job offer you get is in Bothell, you are taking the job in Bothell! I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t prefer to work within walking distance of their home, but it’s not that easy for everyone, folks!

    Many lower income families also don’t have cars and rely on transit. Not because they are standing up for the environment (although a nice byproduct), but because they just can’t afford a car. They don’t have the choice to drive, relocate, or weigh whether they can spare the time for the 3-4 hour round trip bus commute.

    I’m pro-density and pro-transit, and I can also manage to recognize that Seattle’s push for density and TOD, resulting in either market rate condos and townhomes or subsidized low-income housing, has rendered even the lowest-cost areas in the city unaffordable to any family who is not receiving public assistance or making less than a mid- to upper-middle income.

    I would appreciate it if people would step down from their privileged perches, step out of their echo-chambers and start advocating for truly AFFORDABLE (unsubsidized) housing and inclusive policies in Seattle and urban areas as loudly as they advocate for the elimination of services and connectivity (in the name of sustainable living) that entire factions of our community rely on to survive. Otherwise, please remove the Progressive buttons from your messenger bags and acknowledge that achieving a dense mixed-use, car-free, service-rich urban community at the expense of displacing poor and middle income families is not admirable or ideal. It is classist and further ostracizes lower-income populations and perpetuates cycles of poor health and poverty.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    In the real world people don’t move constantly in response to jobs. Most jobs in my industry rarely have tenures longer than 1-3 years, in the niches of the IT world I work in. I’m currently working in the city, but what if my next job is in Bothell, then Redmond, then back to the city, then down to Auburn? Should I move each time to be a good eco-guy?

    When my wife and I buy a home for a quarter million dollars, we’ll get something central and then adjust our routines and lives around that in response to jobs, career, and life, the same as everyone does it in the world.

    It’s also very condescending to refer to the desire for a place with a yard as an entitlement. I’m sure that wasn’t your intention, but the far out there elements of our side of the political use language like that, and it’s the worst possible thing we could do.

  • Anc

    Joe, while you might not can carry enough groceries to feed a family of five for a week, you can surely buy enough for a day or two.

    In Germany it is no big deal to grab a bag or two of groceries every couple of days as you walk to or from your mode of transit.

  • Punk Ass Bitch

    The right solution is not to order a 50 year supply of Twinkies and Cheetos. Yet that is what we are doing with the tunnel and 520 expansion.

  • fgruben

    Type your comment here.I see our solutions as those that take 20 years to show results. I’m not sure I see anything in your ideas that would help the situation at all – 10 years from now or 200. More transit without less roads = more sprawl. More sprawl = more demand for roads. Tell me what I’m missing.

    So. It seems to be bad because you say it’s bad. Why do you have any authority to make demands. What about people that think sprawl is good. Why don’t you propose killing all humans on the planet because there wouldn’t be any sprawl then.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Walking, Biking and Cars are Personal Transit Systems.

    Buses, Trains and Planes are Mass Transit Systems.

    Personal Transit Systems are incredibly efficient and green because they take the person direct from starting point to destination using the best route.

    Mass Transit Systems force people to take the same route, no matter how inefficient and wasteful it is.

    The old 19th century urban model of forcing goods into a single pipeline and transporting them vertically into apartments, is very, very bad for the economy and the environment.

    The 21st century model of retail-warehouse, where the Personal Transit System (PTS) does the “last mile” of transportation, is very very good.

    The old 19th century urbist grid, developed for control over the population by the Army, is very dangerous and faulty. It is slow like a Quick Sort.

    The new 21st century cul de sac model, developed for maximum personal efficiency is like a B-Tree. Very fast with little wasted travel.

  • Anonymous

    [poli] Very interesting comments.

    1. (some people can’t afford condos or suburban homes) Yes, and sadly they often choose apartments far out of the city and commute in (when they can afford a car). This sucks, and I’d love to find a way to help give them more options (more on this later). If they could afford anything near their jobs that would save them a huge portion of their income.

    2. (can’t choose where they work) Often true, though many of us have some control – I’ve chosen two jobs near my work, excluding others from my job search, even when I was out of work for 8 months. But there are two variables here, and if you can’t work near your home, consider moving near your work. But then these are bits of personal advice – we can choose policies that make these choices easier by controlling sprawl that spreads jobs all over our region.

    3. “recognize that Seattle’s push for density and TOD, resulting in either market rate condos and townhomes or subsidized low-income housing, has rendered even the lowest-cost areas in the city unaffordable” This is the most frustrating claim that I come across. Please, tell me how increasing the supply of housing possibly increases pricing. It’s simple, basic economics: increase supply at a fixed demand and you decrease prices. Yes, the nice new condos seem expensive, but for every new condo building the old condos or apartments across the street just dropped in value.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo
  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    And hey, what could be more dense and transit-rich than San Francisco right? Trolleys, BART, Buses galore! I’d say there are only about 200 cars total in San Francisco. Also, all the buildings are 20 stories high because it’s so Green.

    Take a look at this image of the San Francisco Peninsula.

    Notice how all the cars are late model Priuses:

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=san+francisco&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=San+Francisco,+California&gl=us&ei=1th_TKrkBcP88AaCrv2IAQ&ved=0CDIQ8gEwAA&layer=c&cbll=37.780047,-122.484354&panoid=WFPH7BHgFpuycz_cWKRAXQ&cbp=12,123.87,,0,26.62&ll=37.775023,-122.485542&spn=0.026764,0.038581&z=15

  • Anonymous

    As usual, you are logically and empirically incorrect. Empirically, there is a strong correlation between dense cities and their energy use. Dense cities like NYC, Toronto, and San Francisco have lower energy use than sprawling cities like Houston and Phoenix.

    Logically, this makes sense. If one must hop in his 4000 pound Toyota SUV to drive to the supermarket, because there is no retail within walking distance, he uses a lot more energy than someone in the U-District or Roosevelt, who can walk to a number of grocery stores, using no fossil fuels.

    Second, energy is saved on the commute. Since there is a greater density of jobs in Seattle than anywhere else in the region, a person who lives in Seattle and commutes to work there has to travel lesser distances than a person living in an exurban cul de sac. Even assuming that the bus or train he travels on is no more efficient per mile than a single person driving a Ford Fiesta or Toyota Prius, the in-city commuter’s trip will be much shorter, saving a great deal of energy.

  • Anc

    As usual, you are a retard. The Grid system while used by the Roman Legions to lay out their camps, was adopted from the Greeks who developed it not for reasons of control but from the study of geometric patterns (it is believed that a student of Pythagoras first came up with it).

  • Nemo

    Your and JB’s points are not in dispute by anyone on this thread. What seems to be the issue is “bulid it and they will come.” vs. the cart before the horse.

    Developers have thrown a wrench into this, by being allowed to build very overpriced and lesser quality housing near current and planned transportation corridors. The zoning changes and loopholes were terrible and only now are they realizing the upzoning is not going to accomplish anything for the majority of people it was designed to benefit.

    The “market” is not a solution now, and with the current status quo as a result, was not before. Most of the middle and lower income people you want to keep can’t keep up with the “market,” which is STILL artifically inflated and greed driven.

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Yes, why didn’t I see it before.

    Use high taxes, density and mass transit, and everyone will abandon their cars and move into the city.

    Case in point, high density, high tax, high transit Boston Massachusetts.

    Just look at these empty highways…I can see a tumbleweed rolling down the left lane:

    http://74.8.145.59/cam_updated_images/222.jpg

    It’s like the Day the Earth Stood Still!

    They must all be on MBTA…nope, no cars there.

    [Image from http://www1.eot.state.ma.us/ ]

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Urban Legends: Why Suburbs, Not Dense Cities, are the Future

    In fact, the suburbs are not as terrible as urban boosters frequently insist.

    Consider the environment. We tend to associate suburbia with carbon dioxide-producing sprawl and urban areas with sustainability and green living. But though it’s true that urban residents use less gas to get to work than their suburban or rural counterparts, when it comes to overall energy use the picture gets more complicated. Studies in Australia and Spain have found that when you factor in apartment common areas, second residences, consumption, and air travel, urban residents can easily use more energy than their less densely packed neighbors. Moreover, studies around the world — from Beijing and Rome to London and Vancouver — have found that packed concentrations of concrete, asphalt, steel, and glass produce what are known as “heat islands,” generating 6 to 10 degrees Celsius more heat than surrounding areas and extending as far as twice a city’s political boundaries.

    When it comes to inequality, cities might even be the problem. In the West, the largest cities today also tend to suffer the most extreme polarization of incomes. In 1980, Manhattan ranked 17th among U.S. counties for income disparity; by 2007 it was first, with the top fifth of wage earners earning 52 times what the bottom fifth earned. In Toronto between 1970 and 2001, according to one recent study, middle-income neighborhoods shrank by half, dropping from two-thirds of the city to one-third, while poor districts more than doubled to 40 percent. By 2020, middle-class neighborhoods could fall to about 10 percent.

    http://foxandhoundsdaily.com/blog/joel-kotkin/7621-urban-legends-why-suburbs-not-dense-cities-are-future

  • Sigh

    Here we go with the car bullshit again. I was wondering why I’ve been enjoying Publicola more over the last few weeks…

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo

    Author of the above article:

    This article originally appeared at Foreign Policy.

    Joel Kotkin is executive editor of NewGeography.com and is a distinguished presidential fellow in urban futures at Chapman University.

    He is author of The City: A Global History. His newest book is The Next Hundred Million: America in 2050, released in Febuary, 2010.

  • Gomez

    Car capacity is not sacred to Dan Bertolet, and neither is rationality or sanity.

  • LCL

    Here’s a specific ideology-free suggestion. A north Seattle circulator bus line that runs the big circle from Lake City to 145th to Greenwood to Holman to 15th NW to 8th NW to Holman to Greenwood to 145th to Lake City.
    I can’t catch a bus from Lake City to Ballard without going downtown. And I can’t make the transfer bus in the 3 minutes per timetable, even while running downhill. And I can’t get to work on time because I always miss the first downtown transfer to Ballard. (6:30AM start)

    I will leave it to the South end reader to post the equivalent highway99/East Marginal/South Park/Roxbury/West Seattle route, which will be harder with the South Park Bridge out of service.

  • Joseph

    Quick sort? B-tree? Right on!

    Your post is like a doubly-linked skip list, with quadratic probing. I’m sure you understand.

  • http://twitter.com/Zelbinian Dustin Hodge

    In Boston, the commuter rail has WiFi on board. That means the majority of knowledge workers (i.e. white collar jobs) can use their commute as billable time. Some of the commuter buses do that here, too. Imagine if all our commuter buses did that? Traffic jams might even be welcome then. “Sorry, boss, can’t make that meeting, stuck in traffic. Guess I’ll have to get some actual work done.”

  • Mutagon

    You seem to have a simplistic view of what a bike is. A couple bags of groceries can easily be carried in a set of panniers. There are numerous trailing attachments that work great for transporting kids. Or pet carriers. Or general cargo. As for Home Depot or Sears goods, a large percentage of cars can’t haul that stuff either. How do people manage? More people will if the choice is made more convenient, which will likely only happen if car capacity is reduced.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Yes, let’s see a single mom take 2 kids to the grocery store on a bicycle, especially given all the hills here. For all the talk of these things, I’ve never seen a single example presented nor seen one around town.

    There’s a challenge for Publicola: Let’s see an interview (with photos) of a family of four that does it all on bike in the dreamlike manner that gets espoused. List also what they do for a living.

  • evan c

    You say, “I’ve never seen a single example presented nor seen one around town.” Well, that’s just because people like you say that and then refuse to fund or build improved facilities / infrastructure that might actually make it possible. We make sure that cars have relatively easy access to almost any place in the city, but most streets are too dangerous for Mom and her kids or the bike lanes end in a car-dominated intersection. So of course you don’t see many moms transporting kids … here. But it happens in Portland, Minneapolis, Copenhagen, and other cities of Europe. You have to make the effort to make streets safer and bike routes clearer before you can reasonably expect to see those kinds of things.

    Also, no one is saying you can’t still drive if you want to. You want to haul something large home from Home Depot? Then by all means, drive for that trip. OR, you could use a cargo bike like the ones provided by IKEA in Redhook (NY just south west of Brooklyn) for just that purpose – hauling large items. Seriously, though, out of a month of trips, how many are REALLY to Home Depot or other such destinations?

    Finally, a quick search at the site below shows the bike for you! It allows you to carry kids and other cargo. And the best thing is that this is just a prototype – there are literally dozens of other models and millions of examples of people actually doing it!

    http://www.copenhagenize.com/2010/09/pumabiomega-mopion-cargo-bike.html