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PubliCola was off and running. In June 2009, PubliCola hired another award-winning journalist, super-sourced Seattle city hall reporter Erica C. Barnett.

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The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

Why Does McGinn’s Potential Rail Plan Look So… Familiar?

A rail extension to Ballard and West Seattle, to be paid for entirely by Seattle residents, using a new funding source that targets drivers, proposed by a populist who says he believes his version of rail is the best technology to do the job.

Sound familiar? Yep, it does.

The major difference between Mayor Mike McGinn’s light rail pitch and the since-scuttled monorail (aside from the technology) is that he hasn’t yet said how he’ll pay for it. (Actually, I’m not sure that’s so different). Anyway, the likeliest funding source, according to city staffers, is a vehicle-license fee of as much as $100.

Otherwise, the two systems are much the same: It’s the same corridor, it would be funded by a fee on vehicles (comparable to the motor-vehicle excise tax that would have funded the monorail), it would be a city-only project, instead of a regionally funded project like Sound Transit, and it would probably require long-term bonds because it would draw from a smaller tax base.

Most of those factors should be sufficient reason for pause among transit supporters. Not the line itself—Ballard and, particularly, West Seattle will need additional transit in the future. But the death of the monorail came about in large part due to the other three factors mentioned above.

• The fact that the monorail relied exclusively on a single tax had two major impacts: Because the tax came from a single source, people were acutely aware of it. Car taxes were suddenly several hundreds of dollars higher. And because the monorail agency overestimated the total value of cars in Seattle, the error cost the agency one-third of the revenues it had predicted. Had the monorail agency not relied so heavily on a single tax, the impact of the error could have been much less devastating.

• McGinn has proposed funding light rail through a fee on Seattle drivers, whereas Sound Transit is funded regionally and encompasses a three-county area—a significantly larger tax base. Seattle-only light rail would undoubtedly have a smaller tax base than Sound Transit’s.*

•Like the monorail, because it would have a smaller tax base than a typical transit system, McGinn’s light rail would probably have to rely on long-term bonds. The monorail’s financing plan ended up relying on 40-year uninsured junk bonds, because the markets wouldn’t finance the more highly rated, lower-interest-rate 30-year bonds typical of public projects.

• Additionally, a Seattle-only rail system paid for by license fees would face one potential disadvantage that monorail didn’t face: It would bring in less money Unless the city decided to put a much larger package on the ballot (say, a $100 vehicle license fee, a sales-tax increase, and a property tax), revenues would be much lower than the monorail, which relied on an across-the-board 1.4 percent motor-vehicle excise tax.

Finally, because it’s a flat, across-the-board fee, the license fee is regressive. (So was the monorail—like sales taxes, a flat percentage tax hurts poor people more than rich people. However, a sales tax is especially regressive because everybody has to buy things like clothes, and poor people spend a much greater percentage of their income on sales tax than the rich. In contrast, poor people tend to own cheaper cars than rich people. Under the monorail plan, people who owned compact beaters paid less than people who own $100,000 Hummers. Under McGinn’s plan, those people would pay exactly the same amount.)

Footnote: As Ben Schiendelman at Seattle Transit Blog just pointed out to me by email, because Sound Transit requires projects in each of three “subareas” to be paid for by residents in that subarea, Seattle’s light rail is funded largely by sales tax in Seattle; however, Sound Transit’s north King County subarea also includes Shoreline and Lake Forest Park. Moreover, everyone pays sales tax; not everyone owns a car.


  • giffy

    How about instead of whiny to Olympia about made up tunnel issues McGinn and his crew talk them into giving us a better funding mechanism?

  • Random Engineer

    No doubt. The fact remains that Seattle and Pugetopolis is the economic center of the state and region, and making the local worker bees pay for the needed support systems for transportation, and everything else, is unjust. Sure, city residents generally get paid more for the same work, but we get a pile more expenses maintaining the infrastructure that allows for economic benefits well beyond the “Cascade Curtain” and the Columbia River. That ain't right.

  • Transpogeek

    The problem with the monorail was its horrible aesthetic impact on downtown Seattle. That and Second Avenue would have been a disaster. Less parking, more congestion (air pollution) and certainly even worse usability for bicycles.

    In exchange Seattle would have received what was essentially an amusement ride not a transportation system the capacity to serve West Seattle or Ballard.

    A number of good people who killed this dumb idea now work for the Mayor. Hopefully they will have his ear as he rethinks transportation solutions for the city.

  • Barleywine

    Wouldn't the best thing be for Ballard and West Seattle to have the jobs, grocery stores, and entertainment that would make transportation downtown and to other spots around town unnecessary?

  • seabos84

    I'll support anything, provided:

    1. that it does not work with Paul Allen's toy OR metro OR sounder trains OR the rail which runs from downtown to the airport.

    2. we hire shitloads of highly paid consultants to make terabytes of power points.

    3. we hand the whole thing to bechtel, cuz, they did such a great job at the other end of I-90! (hint – red sox, atlantic ocean, lobstah …)

    rmm.

  • morning

    Finally, because it’s a flat, across-the-board fee, the license fee is regressive. (So was the monorail—like sales taxes, a flat percentage tax hurts poor people more than rich people. However, a sales tax is especially regressive because everybody has to buy things like clothes, and poor people spend a much greater percentage of their income on sales tax than the rich. In contrast, poor people tend to own cheaper cars than rich people. Under the monorail plan, people who owned compact beaters paid less than people who own $100,000 Hummers. Under McGinn’s plan, those people would pay exactly the same amount.).

    The monorail had the progressive MVET but it was regressive just like the license fee – please explain.

    BTW since LR is 2 1/2 times as expensive (check ST2 numbers 38 miles $12B+) the revenue will need to be way more than what the monorail would have needed. Like $300 per car.

  • Barleywine

    Can't blame Bechtel for the Atlantic Ocean. Or Wall Drug.

    And I support anything in #1.
    I get my lobstah from China. Butter from Safeway. Power Points from Redmond.

  • morning

    Same for Redmond, right? And Fife.

  • Barleywine

    Yup.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    If Ivar can build a submarine drive through network under Elliot Bay, then by God we can build a deep bore light rail tunnel with a bicycle lane under the water from Alki Beach to Interbay!

  • Barleywine

    Although Fife has a Denny's, and is quite happy as they are.
    No need to mention entertainment beyond what's already working.

    Why rock the boat?

  • Transit Guy

    The corridor that needs to be covered is West Seattle Junction (Calif. & Alaska) to downtown Ballard (15th & Market), a distance of about 10.5 miles if routed through downtown and Uptown/Seattle Center. The late monorail project added needless extensions onto each end of this corridor to make it 14 miles long, which just happened to be the same as the initial segment of Link light rail. (They were big on comparisons with light rail…) These extensions added considerable cost but virtually no ridership.

    The monorail plan failed because of poor program management, not because it was a bad technology. They overestimated revenues and underestimated costs, resulting in an incredibly precarious funding plan (took them 10 months in secret to create) funded by junk bonds.

    If the monorail had been properly designed (10.5 miles, not 14), and professionally managed with costs and revenues in alignment, they could've had a triple-A bond rating like Sound Transit and sold bonds at market rates. And the public would never have taken the ax to the project. And we'd be riding today in a pretty good rapid transit system connecting these two important regional centers with downtown. And enabling an entirely different conversation about the AWViaduct project

    Which all brings me down to — maybe a monorail line, properly done, would be the better choice in this corridor than light rail. This corridor doesn't need the capacity of Link's ultimate 4-car trains, so monorail's smaller capacity can be made to work. There are few good streets in this corridor on which to route surface light rail (without totally messing up vehicular traffic) so much of the line would have to be elevated anyway. And monorail's somewhat smaller elevated profile could give it cost and aesthetic advantages.

    I know it's scary for many to reconsider monorail, especially in this corridor, with its sordid history, but I believe a careful objective examination could lead to its selection.

    It's easy to dismiss monorail out of hand, but I'm not so sure.

  • misha

    The problem with the monorail was that it required a huge investment in real estate and construction for stations and an entirely new infrastructure at a new grade. Everyone supported the monorail knowing about the “problems” you mentioned; it was only until the last vote when the ridiculous costs became apparent.

    It's the same problem with our light rail system – it's just below ground instead of above ground. Our Central Link and University Link light rail systems are by far the most expensive light rail systems in human history per mile (no hyperbole) because they're not at grade. If we put light rail on the streets we could have built light rail from the airport to the university for under the cost of just the Beacon Hill station. Portland did it four times.

    Put light rail on the streets. Give light rail its own lanes and signal
    priority. It's dirt cheap and ridiculously popular – no more spending five
    minutes to go underground to catch a train in a dank tunnel. It's the reason cities from Portland to San Francisco to Salt Lake City have light rail systems that put ours to shame at a fraction of the cost.

  • TranspoGuy

    Putting light rail on the streets, without tunneling, doesn't work so well here because of all the big, steep hills. Salt Lake City, like Denver, is on a high plain with virtually no topographic variation. Portland has one very deep tunnel, at the zoo station, where they have their one big hill that sits in the middle of the city (the other big, heavily populated hill in Portland is served by an aerial tram). In SF, wherever there are hills (and there are, famously, a lot of them) the MUNI and BART trains go through tunnels.

    The big difference between here and SF and Portland is that those cities were smart enough to start building their rail systems at a time (before Reagan) when the federal government picked up 80% of the bill. So they got the feds to pay for all that expensive tunneling. Here, local sales taxes are paying for the majority of it.

  • TranspoGuy

    Monorail, in theory, might be an ideal mode in very specific instances, in very specific corridors. The West Seattle to SODO corridor might have been one of those because of the near constant varying topography between getting up to the Junction. But, because it must be elevated throughout the system and is complicated to switch or turn-out, monorail never caught on in most of the world. Comparatively, light rail is off-the-shelf technology.

    Light rail across the Duwamish and through many parts of West Seattle would have to be elevated or tunneled, but through segments of West Seattle and through the Interbay or Westlake corridor and in Ballard, you could run at-grade, saving lots of dough throughout the alignment. Even where light rail is elevated, it's about the same cost as monorail (in theory, since there's not enough modern monorail around to say with any certainty) and not much bigger in profile.

  • Barleywine

    Since many in Seattle consider Alki to be West Seattle, how about running LR along the water. At grade, and who cares about the Junction?

  • Tony the Economist

    “…Seattle’s light rail is funded largely by sales tax in Seattle; however, Sound Transit’s north King County subarea also includes Shoreline and Lake Forest Park. Moreover, everyone pays sales tax; not everyone owns a car.”

    Seattle represents about 92% of the North King subarea, and that 8% of revenue that comes from Shoreline and Lake Forest Park needs to pay for the 12% of the North Link that goes through Shoreline. Seattle not only has to pay for every penny of Light Rail within Seattle, it also has to subsidize Shoreline's segment.

    There is zero financial advantage to including the suburbs in the taxing district. Seattle has plenty of money. We can easily afford west side light rail if we want it.

    Your only valid point is that using a vehicle license fee exclusively could cause financing problems and presents some challenges with regressivity, but those problems accrue from the nature of the tax, NOT the geography.

    Even a small amount of research would reveal that the smaller-geographic-tax-base argument holds no water. Please stop perpetuating factually erroneous myths.

  • alexjonlin

    The extensions beyond Downtown Ballard and the West Seattle Junction are not at all useless, they would have gotten quite a bit of use, and would've attracted a lot of TOD over time to supply them with more riders. However, it would be good to, for now, just build the Downtown Ballard-Junction segment, as it is very high ridership. The extensions can take place at a later date, eventually from Ballard up to Crown Hill and possibly Northgate and Lake City, as proposed by the Monorail Authority, and south from the Junction to White Center and Burien.

  • alexjonlin

    You're right, we have the most expensive light rail in the country. But that's because comparing our light rail with others is ridiculous. Ours is not built to traditional American light rail standards, but mostly to the standards of a metro. This will make it far faster and more reliable, and result in higher capacity and higher ridership. When compared to metro and subway extensions around the country (NYC's Second Ave Subway and 7 extension, LA's Subway to the Sea, and DC's Silver Line, among others), our system's cost per mile is perfectly reasonable.

  • TheInfo

    Bonus for tax wasting politicians…the Monorail people sold all the right of ways they bought after they were dismantled.

    Now Nickles (sorry, McGinn) gets to buy them all back again! Hello, Vulcan, it's me Mike. Time for me to pay up!

  • TheInfo

    It's hilarious that the Public was sold a bill of goods on these systems, and yet 20 years later, the basic technology and approach is still being debated as billions are squandered for subpar results!

    The Puget Sound is losing population and all the plans were based on super high growth. What is sold as a transportation plan by the Transit Banditos is now unmasked as mere taxation.

    They will always choose the most wasteful and least effective result because then they can continue to tax ad infinitum.

    The only solution is to clean house and through out the current Democrat machine in toto.

  • Barleywine

    And yet they still come, even after Kurt.

    Could it be that beyond the politics we still have something to offer?
    Salt water, fresh water, mountains, gridlock, whales, markets…

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Losing population? False.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    You are suggesting football and baseball stadia for every neighborhood?

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    I was disappointed when the city immediately dumped all the monorail land.

    However, because of fortuitous timing, the city made a tidy profit off those transactions.

    The market has since become depressed. Perhaps the real estate can be bought back even cheaper than before?

    What is certain though, is that you like to spout your anti-public jibber-jabber without the slightest consideration of available facts.

    i suggest you wait until you have some info before you pretend to offer info, Mr. (or Ms.) TheInfo.

  • Barleywine

    Not if they don't know about it.

    TV and soccer holds the rest of the world.
    Bourdain and Beckham.

    No need to clue them in about the Rat City Roller Girls.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Because the Junction is one of the business and population centers of West Seattle but Alki is a beach with some expensive condos?

  • Transit Guy

    The Junction is called that for a reason. It's the focal point of virtually all West Seattle bus routes, making it an ideal location to transfer to fast high-capacity transit for the ride downtown. It's where you get the most ridership for the investment.

  • morning

    Gawd do you people have any idea? The city didn't own the land. The monorail agency was a separate government. That is why it was disingenuous for Nickels and Conlin to express concern over the city's credit rating.

    They sold the land at the peak of the market. The city was presented with the idea of keeping the land but great environmental leaders like Conlin had no interest.

    McGinn and the Great City gang didn't support the monorail. They didn't come out to save the station land. Funny that 15 years ago just plain citizens saw the need for transit but the environmental “leaders” didn't.

  • morning

    Even where light rail is elevated, it's about the same cost as monorail (in theory, since there's not enough modern monorail around to say with any certainty) and not much bigger in profile..

    Bull. LR is at least twice the cost and is a 25' across platform. The only reason you might think the elevated sections of Link aren't that much bigger is that the columns are gigantic making the platform look smaller to you.

    Building the infrastructure has little to do with the running stock when it comes to cost. The cost numbers for the monorail were about $125M per mile and included running stock, operations and maintenance.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    You make a solid point about the public entity that purchased the land and then made a handsome profit off the resales. It was the monorail authority and not the City of Seattle. Although, weren't those proceeds transferred to city accounts upon the liquidation of the Elevated Transit Authority?

    Please don't blame the masses (ie, “you people”) for my oversight.

    My point was that the public agencies didn't “waste taxes” on those deals.

  • Ben Schiendelman

    What do you think Streets for All Seattle is, and the Transit Master Plan push? Stop with the straw man.

  • benschiendelman

    Haha. Just in case… I want to point out that all the demand is to downtown, not from one end to the other.

  • benschiendelman

    Hey Morning – the cost numbers for the monorail went up to $200m per mile in the last vote. If they had been $125m per mile, they'd have had the money to build it. Sorry.

  • benschiendelman

    The monorail authority was legally required to sell assets after the vote. It wasn't a choice.

    And no, that only partly paid off what they'd spent. They had to continue collecting taxes for a year to pay off the rest.

  • David Miller

    Erica — A correction to your story is necessary if only so any plan going forward does not replicate the mistake.

    The monorail proponents did not miscalculate the money available from license tabs, the Regional Transit Authority (RTA, now Sound Transit) did. The simple fact is RTA gave monorail people bogus figures. We can argue whether it was purposeful (to derail a system RTA believed was a threat) or an honest mistake (RTA really didn't know how much they would collect), but the fact remains the funding calculations were left to RTA. Relying on RTA to provide accurate figures was a strategic error made by the monorail coalition that doomed them in the end.

    In 1997, I joined with other groups across the state to advocate for legislation requring WA-DOL to publicly release data necessary to accurately calculate vehicle excise taxes (this is anonymous data). The legislation also required the RTA to disclose who was subject to their added tab tax to make it possible to accurately collect the tax. The legislation, which I wrote, passed both houses nearly unanimously. For reasons still not clear to me, then-Governor Gary Locke line-item vetoed the clause requiring RTA to provide information on calculating the tax. The veto was apparently based on a promise from RTA management to Locke's staff they would work with interested parties (I guess RTA's promise was seen by Locke as sufficient.)

    RTA, of course, refused to work with us. Governor Locke's chief of staff at the time reamed RTA leadership and we hacked together a pseudo-solution still in use today at WA-DOL, subagency, and auto dealerships across the state.

    The moral of all this is anyone looking to generate tab fee revenue estimates should not go to RTA/Sound Transit for help. By law, the data are available directly from WA-DOL. Budget analysts for any project relying on these data should also make a substantial correction for people licensing their cars outside the city to escape the tax.

    Side Note: I don't favor the Mayor's light rail plan, instead favoring dedicated bus lanes (BRT) as a much cheaper cost/benefit solution more appropriate for these fiscal times. With BRT in place and proven to work, later conversion to light rail becomes politically easier and financially more predictable if money for that purpose falls from the sky.

    David Miller

  • giffy

    Unfunded barely thought out 'proposals' backed with nothing behind them but town halls and press conferences?

  • morning

    Sorry Ben, but you're wrong. The vote in 2005 to shorten the route to 10 miles was more like $1.5, while the 14 mile total capital, maintenance, administration, and operations cost was $2.1B. The DBOM contract was $1.6B for the 14 mile system.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Yes, the monorail authority spent and lost money. I was wrong about there being a surplus.

    But I was correct that the monorail made money off the land sales. The proceeds were applied to operating debts and reduced the duration of the car tab tax.

    “With all but one parcel sold or under contract, the monorail project now stands to receive $68 million, $11 million more than it paid for the parcels two years ago.”

    http://www.seattlepi.com/transportation/271111_…

    May 22, 2006

    This whole Seattle transportation war, since Forward Thrust really, is just… sad. Penny smart, pound foolish, again and again and again.

  • what are you waiting for?

    Light rail advocates have all the data in costs per mile, we can roughly estimate the two new bridges required, and then there's the issue of how to get thru downtown. A surface route means (a) slow transit and (b) highly limited capaicty as trains have to fit within a city block. But anti monoral/pro light folk have had five years now to come forward with their proposal.

    We are still waiting.

    So, lightrailistas, you like light rail so much? Tell us your route. Tell us the costs. Tell us the tax. Go get council approval and ur a vote of the people.

    Get on with it. I am not sure what you are waiting for.

    BTW what was the cost per mile in ST 2? So, tell us your cost per mile, station cost, train cost, operating cost, finance cost, tax source and projections, and also be a bit operational, okay? So tell us how you cross the canala nd the river, and if you go on the surface in places, will it take 40 minutes to get from Morgan Junction to downtown, will it take 40 mintues to get from 85th/15th downtown or will it take just 18 minutes the way the monorail would have done? So, if it's 30 or 40 minutes, that's lower ridership, right? Tell us the ridership.
    Also please tell us what lanes you will be removing from California Ave, First Avenue, Elliott/15th, how you will interact with bike lanes on the surface streets, will the bike lane push the light rail out in the middle of the street? OR will there be no bike lane? It's a bit dicey for a bike to be criss crossing light rail tracks, isn't it?
    and is your connection to the third ave light rail tunnel going to be “walk through the downtown fabric, find a light rial station, and go thru another turnstile” or do you have some better connection.

    We've been waiting five years since 2005 when some of you helped kill off the monorail. It's fundamental problem was a revenue shortfall — well today the State with its array of taxes has a deep revenue shortfall, so does the city, so does ST itself with a $3.9 billion revenue shortfall.

    So it wasn't really that was it?

    But anyway, please, by all means, come forward with your plan, and seek council or popular approval for the plan and the taxes.

    We are waiting. Don't make us wait 25 more years, okay? Give us your plan.

    The floor is yours.

  • morning

    Actually DOL wouldn't give the monorail computed data because the monorail wasn't an agency until after the 2002 vote. ST transit numbers were public, but as I've pointed out numerous times here, they were recording 6 zip codes south of the city improperly in the north King county sub-area.

    DOL did have the raw data available but Berk and Associates were not competent and didn't run the numbers. A guy named Joel Paston did get the CD with the data after the vote and showed the shortfall.

    ST didn't let the monorail or DOL know of the error until after the vote was set. The ST numbers were, at best, only a guide since ST taxed new cars and the monorail didn't. There were also some other differences.

    At best only HOV lanes will be provided to Ballard. There is no way that people will have only buses on 1 of the two lanes across the Ship Canal. Will your BRT include platform loading, off bus ticketing, and all the other elements of BRT or are just calling enhanced bus service BRT?

  • Get on with it already

    Ben, you like light rail? Go ahead and submit your proposal with your cost per mile, how you cross water, how you get through downtown, and the travel times and ridership and tax stream.

    It's been five years. You have volumes of info from ST 2.0, the monorail contract, etc. You have the corridor study that Schell did.

    What are you light rail guys waiting for to bring forward your specific proposal?

  • talk not action. Cheap.

    The monorail folks begged the city council or ST or Metro to please, please please take this land that was acquired and use it for transit.

    Each of those agencies could have taken over the land. The Denny's site in Ballard would have made a GREAT BRT station with co development above!

    Same with the other sites, many of them.

    the other governments were slow, lazy, indolent, and short sighted for not taking that step.

    Say you want light rail. Why didn't ST come forward and acquire those assets? A govt. to govt. transaction, usually you get a good price.

    Seems like the plan is to forever TALK about the chimera of light rail in this corridor but never to DO IT.

  • Transit Guy

    The monorail authority had an obligation to exercise due diligence with regard to critically important numbers like revenues and costs. In this they failed, a failure that cannot be pinned on Sound Transit.

  • Compare and contrast

    Government agencies with drastic revenue shortfalls that should be killed off:
    The Seattle Monorail Project

    Government agencies with dramatic revenue shortfalls that should be allowed to continue, by raising taxes or cutting services or both:

    State of Washington.
    WSDOT.
    City of Seattle.

    Sound Transit, $3.9 billion revenue shortfall.

    Metro.

    Um, just about every other city and state and transit agency in the USa right now……

    These are the agencies that when dealing with revenue shortfall, go back to voters for permision to continue, and abide by the will of the voters:
    The Seattle Monorail Project.

    If we applied the same standards, today we'd be yelling about killing off Sound Transit, the City of Seattle and The State of Washington because each of them have drastic revenue shortfalls that will result in scope cutbacks or higher taxes, the very thing that Nickels et al.used to justify killing the monorail.

  • benschiendelman

    “talk not action”:

    The monorail folks had no legal authority to give ST or the city land. I'm sorry you seem to believe otherwise. There was no process by which that could have happened.

    The rest of your comment is total ignorance.

  • Conventional Wisdom

    No, you're not getting it.

    If a government has a revenue shortfall, this means their geographic base of taxation was too small!

    So, for example, if ST hass a $3.9 billion revenue shortfall, well, they should not have left out those parts of three counties that aren't within their boundaries.

    Same with WSDOT. It has a huge gas tax revenue shortfall — obviously WSDOT should have taxed gas sales in Idaho, Oregon and BC — they were pretty dumb, weren't they, to limit themselves to one state!

    Same with the USA. We have these revenue shortfalls, obviously we should have been taxing China!

  • all talk, and no action!!!

    in reply to your comment to talk not action:

    Ben, you like light rail. You have tons of data. Please come forward with your light rail plan including cost per mile, travel time, ridership, the tax stream, the finance costs, the bridge crossings and how you get through downtown, what in HECK are you waiting for?

    In the meantime, it's all talk, not action, talk is cheap.

    As for your other comment no one said the monorail authroity should have GIVEN the land to ST or Metro or the City, I said there would be a PRICE, can't you read?

    This was horrible negligence on the part of ST, the City or Metro — there was a string of parcels highly useful for BRT stations or light rail stations, for example the Denny's in Ballard, so today when you price out your light rail proposal if prices are cheaper, prove me wrong!

    But to do that, you have to be specific.

    Go ahead, the flooris yours, where is the light rail plan, we have been waiting five years.

    What decade are you guys going to finally come forward with a plan and not vaporware? All talk, no action. Tell us your plan.

    You don't have one, right?

  • benschiendelman

    Legally, the monorail authority had to put the land on the market for sale. It's not up to them who buys it, and neither ST nor the city had a plan that would need the land.

    I don't understand how some random commenter having or not having a particular plan for light rail means anything. Sound Transit is doing corridor planning and conceptual engineering for light rail in that corridor in about 2015. It would be nice if the city would pay for that work early to move things forward.

  • Gomez

    No, the problem with the Green Line was its absurd price tag (anywhere from 4 to 11 billion dollars) and the punishing method of funding it (potentially steep MVET fees).

    The asthetics were little more than a tangential issue, if anyone beyond a select few really cared.

  • you get the idea

    Sound Transit has a $3.9 billion revenue shortfall, this on top of thir 100% cost overrun in prior years.

    They had an obligation to exercise due diligence with regard to revenues and costs. In this they failed a failure that cannot be pinned on anyone else.

    The state of washington and WSDOT have a huge revenue shortfall, and costs of their projects are soaring beyond what was projected earlier. The road building program can't afford to build the highway projects, and the state budget is not sustainable.

    They had an obligation to exercise due diligence with regard to revenues and costs. In this they failed, a failure that cannot be pinned on anyone else.

    King County/Metro has a severe revenue short fall, and is experiencing soaring costs of ongoing programs…..

  • Eddiew

    old ETC/SMP history: also, some zip codes in north Seattle cross over into Shoreline and included vehicles subject to ST taxation and not ETC/SMP taxation. bottom line, the tax base was less than they relied upon and they made the fatal mistake of trying to fund the project with spun cotton candy.

    Erica1: given subarea equity, there is little difference between ST paying for LRT and Seattle raising funds themselves to accelarate LRT planning and construction; McGinn wants if more quickly. The same taxpayers would pass the funds through two different governments. you paraphrase councilmembers who may not understand that.

    Erica2: the McGinn suggestion was to study TriMet type LRT that would use city-owned rights-of-way and be less costly than the ST practice of building new ROW. now, the council and mayor are working together to study alternative modes, and we may have a prolonged recession and many transport needs.

  • WarOnCars

    Does Seattle have a Mafia scene I don't know about? Because from my understanding (as a former Massachusetts resident), part of the costs were tied with corrupt contractors. I always find this a laughable protest– “Look at what a disaster the Big Dig was!”. Apples & oranges, people. Not comparable in any way, shape or form beyond “Major Transit Projects That Go Through An Established Downtown”.

  • wes kirkman

    take the water taxi if you want to get to alki

  • Gomez

    Monorail isn't a bad technology, but monorail lines require more infrastructure up front, which drives up the cost, and they're more difficult/expensive to maintain and repair due to the unique challenges of the monorail interface. Hell, look at the complications we have with our dinky little 10 block line between Westlake Center and the Space Needle. One malfunction and a train's out of commission for weeks or months.

    There's a reason the Green Line got so pricey that an expensive finance plan was required to build it… while Link's costs have stayed mostly under control even given its overruns. I'm not saying light rail is totally great but it does provide several implementation and utilization advantages over monorail.

  • Transit Guy

    Huh??

    Nobody's due diligence can predict the future, YGTI. The monorail agency's failure was in real time.

    And in case anyone hasn't noticed, the monorail burned through $120m+ and left nothing to show for it. And Sound Transit opened its Link light rail line — on the schedule and budget adopted eight years prior.

  • David Miller

    I don't disagree with you. I warned the monorail people they were getting screwed by RTA, but they never responded. Where I was at the time we could estimate what the monorail was going to get from tab revenue and I knew it was a fraction of what they were expecting.

    That said, RTA knowingly gave them the wrong figures. While the monorail team has to own the ultimate failure, RTA can't (and shouldn't) go blameless. More importantly, this needs to serve as a lesson to anyone else planning on looking at car tab taxes for revenues.

  • David Miller

    Uh, not on budget and not on time from the original vote.

  • Good_Grief

    The one Portland line that runs through the hilly part of town has a hugely long set of dual tunnels and an expensive very deep station that serves what is essentially a tourist area — the Zoo. Topography matters…

  • Edog

    Sort of but streets is supposed to create support that pressures people to create funding.

  • Edog

    What was the proposed alignment of the monorail from 15th to downtown, and what is it under McGinn's plan?

  • morning

    More money has been spent on the AWV replacement studies than the monorail cost.

    There was a lot of work done on utility location, ridership, soils etc. that could be used for a new line.

    The worst the monorail ever did was 38% – think about it. With a headline as big as VE-Day stating that the plan would cost $12B (total finance costs over 50 years) 38% still wanted it.

    There is no reason for transit supporters to bash it now. The votes for money in the future may get a little tougher.

  • morning

    What monorail people did you warn? Did you do it in public? RTA figures were public. They didn't mention the 6 zip codes but the real government bogey man was DOL.

  • morning

    Right spending $5.5B instead of the $1.7B we voted on is due diligence. Delivering 2/3 of the line 10 years after the promised date is on schedule. The other 1/3 20 years late is sensational.

    ST wasted more money on billboards than the monorail lost in total. Okay billboards, TV, radio, newspapers, PR companies…

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/6SAQ6R2ZBGQQNNBXVJZG66K6KY Mickymse

    No, the PRICE tag was not “anywhere from 4 to 11 billion dollars”; the FINANCING would have cost that much over time. Or do you shop for houses by looking at what you'll pay over 30 years?

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/6SAQ6R2ZBGQQNNBXVJZG66K6KY Mickymse

    Actually, monorail has “caught on” all over Asia and the Middle East. It's only here in North America that light rail gets built over and over.

    And why is it private funders choose monorail and public funders choose light rail?

  • Transit Guy

    Right you are, David, but few people seem to be complaining about that today. 57 percent Yes votes in Nov. 2008 seems a pretty nice vote of confidence to me.

  • T_Chen

    It seems to me that monorail is a niche technology around the world. I can't think of any major cities that use it as the primary mass transit technology. The vast majority of grade separated transit is standard rail, such as in Tokyo, New York, Shanghai, Hong Kong, DC, Chicago, Moscow, London etc.

    I believe most North American cities use light rail because of the comparative lack of density here that makes cheaper light rail systems preferable to grade separated transit (whether heavy rail or monorail). Think Charlotte, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Portland etc.

    Seattle is kind of in-between: We're denser than those other light rail cities mentioned, but we're not up there with New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Vancouver, BC etc, and not nearly as dense as other major world cities with grade separated rail mentioned before. That's probably why we have a compromise light rail system that has many characteristics of heavy rail (capacity, grade separation).

  • David Miller

    The Board
    Yes
    No they weren't
    The six zip codes were not the problem. Subtract the revenue from those zip codes and the dolalr figures RTA provided were still wrong.

  • Billy

    Select few? Yikes the Green Line would have had a horrible impact on downtown! Rise above it all and screw the people who have to live and work and commute on the street

  • Johns

    15th down the hill from Crown Hill to a new bridge and then along through Interbay. There is no McGinn light rail plan, but I think that's a likely corridor for study.

  • Piercestar

    The non-headline to this non-story: Erica's monorail speculation without a single fact to support it elicits repetitive speculation from people with nothing better to do than comment on something that's just not going to happen. But otherwise, great journalism!

  • Gomez

    You probably should! Since, you know, that's how much you'd actually have to pay and all.

  • Luke

    Get your facts straight, and please, learn how to spell.