Viva La Cola!

Founded in January 2009, PubliCola is a blog about Seattle written by journalists who are dedicated to non-partisan, original daily reporting that prioritizes a balanced approach to news. Started by longtime local editor and award-winning reporter Josh Feit, PubliCola is the first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol.

PubliCola was off and running. In June 2009, PubliCola hired another award-winning journalist, super-sourced Seattle city hall reporter Erica C. Barnett.

People were afraid that blogging would change journalism. Instead, we believe journalism can change blogging. Twenty-first century journalism may look and feel different, and yes Erica isn't afraid to get cranky, but we're committed to making sure online news still delivers independent, reliable, even-keeled coverage. And most of all, we're committed to making sure the coverage sparks honest civic debate.

Bringing you cola for the people, PubliCola is named after Publius Valerius PubliCola, the alias for the authors of the Federalist Papers—the original bloggers.

The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

Tunnel Mania

Tunnel mania. Who started it, and will it ever stop?

Hopefully not any time soon, if you ask me. Because the more light that is shed on the deep-bore tunnel now, the less likely we are to do something foolish later. Like build it.

All the recent noise about the tunnel has percolated up the media food chain, to the point where the Seattle Times was forced to do some actual reporting on the potential risks of the tunnel. Excellent.

Some of the noise is no surprise, as in the case of Knute Berger—who, as far as I can tell, has never articulated an opinion on the tunnel one way or the other—sounding relieved that city leaders could be off the hook for making a choice if we just have a vote on it and let the chips fall where they may.

In other cases, strange bedfellows have emerged. For example: The cloyingly paternalistic Joel Connelly points out that “bicycles are not going to supply Ballard Oil,” because—wink, wink—everyone knows those naive, idealistic sustainability kids are clueless about such matters.

And over on the other end of the media spectrum: This week, the supremely measured sustainability gurus at Sightline chastised Richard Conlin for using Orwellian “newspeak” when he called the tunnel the “green alternative.” Oddly enough, Sightline was much harder on Conlin than I was. That speaks volumes, because Sightline founder Alan Durning is an old friend of Conlin’s and has long been his stalwart supporter.

If you’re a Seattle politician whose career has been grounded in the support of the green base, it’s probably not a great idea to break ranks with Seattle’s most respected sustainability think tank.

Yet the meme has spread: Did you know that the deep-bore tunnel is “green” because tunnels last a long time? Council member Tom Rasmussen apparently agrees.

And of course the standard, tired pro-tunnel arguments continue to reverberate. Case in point: the argument that state will have a hissy fit and take its money and go home if it doesn’t get its way. Former state transportation secretary Douglas B. MacDonald writes: “Yes, it’s a state highway, but its actual use and benefit is largely local to the people and businesses of Seattle.” Huh? Is Seattle not part of the state of Washington?

Last I heard, Seattle was the most important economic center in the region. So rather than sucking up to the state’s anti-Seattle infantilism, the city’s leaders ought to be insisting that the state fund Seattle projects in fair consideration of the city’s population and economic output.

What has lately become the most parroted pro-tunnel meme, however, is that the biggest risk is delay. No! The biggest risk is not responding rapidly and aggressively to our looming environmental crises, and thereby failing to transform Seattle into a city that will thrive through the coming decades.

And the opportunity cost of the tunnel on that front is massive. With $2 billion, we could fund the Pedestrian Master Plan and the Bicycle Master Plan and have money left over to get a good start on local light rail. Yes, current state rules prevent the money being spent on those things. But if we hope to have any chance of making progress, it’s time to call bullshit on those rules.

That starts with Seattle’s leaders uniting to stand up for Seattle’s interests. But so far, in the egregious case of tunnel cost overruns, they have failed to even manage that. For this, both the council and mayor are to blame. Work it out, people. You are failing future generations.

P.S. Love or hate the tunnel, the video below is hard not to love—the power of 3D visualization. Hit the full-screen button in the lower right corner and take a trip.


  • Stacy

    I love you Dan, seriously I do. Thanks for continuing to hammer on this issue.

  • Ziggity

    For all the boosterism going on at WSDOT, they could've at least finished the EIS by now. Hope they're giving their legal team the same level of funding as their 3D-vis team.

  • big picture

    Sightline needs to address their antipathy towards light rail before I would consider them the most respected sustainability think tank.

    And I think you skip over the larger, more troubling part of Doug McDonald's piece. Which is that Seattle will have a hard time holding onto the $2.2 M for the tunnel if they choose a surface option. The state will reprogram those funds to sprawl inducing, polar bear killing roads elsewhere. Especially after the mayor has systematically pissed off all potential allies in local and state government.

  • tpn

    Who will pay for the surface option? Will we get to vote on that?

  • Stacy

    And you know this because the people who support the tunnel tell you so?

  • sirkulat

    The DBT risk is extreme. It's too close to the foundations of downtown buildings, including the seawall and the AWV during construction. Upon completion, the DBT dumps traffic onto surface streets causing worse environmental impact than the surface/transit option which contains the displaced traffic to Alaskan Way. The DBT traffic impacts extend to South Lake Union, Lower Queen Anne, the Denny Way and Westlake corridors. Reconnecting the grid by lowering Aurora below John, Thomas and Harrison Streets is a good idea but it does not affect the displaced SR99 traffic headed to and originating at Interbay, Magnolia, Ballard.

  • Jakers

    Dan – So the way that I understand your proposal is to not tear down the viaduct, not build a tunnel, not do a surface/tranist/I-5 options, just give $2 Billion in state money to the City of Seattle to spend how they please (bikes, sidewalks, etc.).

    Seattle isn't green! The “most important economic center in the region” can never be green. It can be less brown. Seattle can't be both “most important economic center in the region” and green at the same time. Economic growth is never “green;” it's just less brown.

  • big picture

    I know that because Seattle has a divided and not all that strong delegation to the legislature. And we have a poor reputation for working with others. And this mayor has gone out of his way to worsen relations with other governments. There is no shortage of other roads projects for state legislators to devote funds to that will create jobs right now. They will leap at the chance.

    Kill the tunnel if you wish. But do so with your eyes wide open about the likely outcomes in the state legislature and elsewhere. I do not think the state will fund the transit part of surface/transit and I have little confidence in their ability to work with the city to build good surface options.

  • Stacy

    You don't trust the state to fund transit or build surface roads, but you think they can pull off a tunnel project? You really think they'll just up and yank funding for a state highway that runs through the state's largest city? This is some backwards logic.

  • rickg

    With $2 billion, we could fund the Pedestrian Master Plan and the Bicycle Master Plan and have money left over to get a good start on local light rail.

    Sure, but nothing you say addresses the issue of what to do with the viaduct and the traffic it carries. Transit proponents and people who want us to bike around have a point, but only a partial one. Some people who currently drive the Viaduct could take alternatives – but not all of them can. More to the point, not all of them will and just sticking your head in the ground about that point reduces credibility.

    The Viaduct isn't safe. It needs to be replaced. The options are a surface street, a tunnel or a bridge. Pretending that the demand for its capacity will magically go away and that all of those people will use alternatives isn't realistic.

  • big picture

    I think the state will do the bare minimum for surface/transit. Building roads is what they do. WSDOT actually has a history of doing it pretty well by national standards.

  • Ziggity

    I'm just unsure what level of magic or unreality you're using as a gauge.

    Would that be more or less magical than when people chose alternatives in the Embarcadero or Octavia Blvd in SF? Less realistic than congestion reduction stemming from the Chattanooga Riverfront project? More or less magical or unrealistic than the impact of the removal of Harbor Drive in Portland?

    Give me some sense of scale here.

  • Ziggity

    Oh, and not as magical as Missouri, right? Where a two-year interstate closure had no net economic benefit. That's surely too magically unreal for Seattle.

    http://www.gatewaystreets.org/2010/03/economic-…

  • Ziggity

    “…no net economic impacts”, I should say.

  • Jakers

    Let the whole state vote on it.

  • Oy Vey

    You are so totally right. What people don't understand is that WSDOT is not a builder of city-streets and they are not going to fork over 2.2m for the ideal Seattle waterfront. They're going to give it to 520 or other projects in need of funds. I'm assuming most of you are fine with this, but it's not like you can just piss on the state Mr. McGinn and then expect them to give you what you want.

    To quote Judge Smails from Caddyshack “you'll get nothing and like it.”

  • TJ

    You realize, don't you, that the Embarcadero was not a through-street, don't you? It was 1/3 of a freeway that was never built. In essence, it was a long off-ramp from the Bay Bridge. In function, it's very different than the AWV.

  • feefigh

    “No! The biggest risk is not responding rapidly and aggressively to our looming environmental crises, and thereby failing to transform Seattle into a city that will thrive through the coming decades”.

    You're saying that if we don't act rapidly to limit the number of single occupancy vehicles on the road then Seattle will stagnate and decay? Will the surface option take vehicles off the road? If your concern is truly an environmental crisis a fuel tax or higher emissions standards would seem better causes. I'd love to see a critique of both options from a pure urban design/city planning point of view? Leave out the green (both kinds) of scare tactics.

  • Jimmiepat

    Who are/were his potential allies ?

  • Ziggity

    However you'd like to look at it. The point is that the Embarcadero as a piece of infrastructure generated motor vehicle traffic and congestion in neighborhoods. When it was removed, people found other ways to get around the city, and the city was better off as a result.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/6SAQ6R2ZBGQQNNBXVJZG66K6KY Mickymse

    Folks keep saying that the State will reprogram the funds if we choose the Surface/Transit/I-5 option…

    But that's as divorced from reality as the folks who say that the state won't make Seattle pay for any cost overruns.

    We simply don't know the answer; and it will probably involve some legal wrangling.

    After all, doing a four-lane surface roadway instead of a four-lane tunnel doesn't remove the “State Route” designation of that stretch of 99 any more than it does when 99 is a six-lane roadway through Shoreline or Everett.

    And why WOULDN'T the State want to program some money to improving flow on I-5 through Seattle?

  • tvguide

    I believe that the money allocated to the tunnel can only be used for roadway improvements by law (it has to do with the funding source). In short, the money for the tunnel would go either to another elevated structure on our waterfront or to another highway project in the state. It won't, it can't go to transit. Cola drinkers don't understand this basic fact.

  • tpn

    “The DBT risk is extreme. It's too close to the foundations of downtown buildings”

    Yes, clearly the arch has only been tested for the last 2-3000 years or so. We need some consultants to review that building technique.

  • teve

    yes thank you because the number one thing we need in our discourse is to talk about the effing tunnel and bike plans more.

    This comment brought to you by the There's More than Two Issues in Seattle Committee

  • big picture

    The state will devote funds to I-5. They already have a projected $2 Billion in basic maintenance to do through downtown Seattle even without those improvements. The long list of infrastructure projects in this state mandates reprogramming.

    If there is no tunnel, the state will build a nice arterial, Battery Street, and try to improve I-5. They will not fund transit or very many grid improvements to Seattle.

    I am not saying I like that, I am saying that is the reality.

  • Stacy

    Remember, it was WSDOT who signed off on the surface-transit alternative at the end of the stakeholder process; the same process in which WSDOT deemed the DBT too expensive and risky and not a good transportation investment.

  • DanFan

    Dan,
    Another great piece from you that uses reason to propel an argument against those who use fear. Thank you.

  • tedb310

    I get a kick out of this paragraph:

    “And the opportunity cost of the tunnel on that front is massive. With $2 billion, we could fund the Pedestrian Master Plan and the Bicycle Master Plan and have money left over to get a good start on local light rail. Yes, current state rules prevent the money being spent on those things. But if we hope to have any chance of making progress, it’s time to call bullshit on those rules.”

    That sounds just like what the pro-tunnel advocates say about the cost overruns being paid by Seattle, ie: bad rule, won't happen. If that won't work for them, why will it work for anti-tunnel advocates? Laws that limit the use of highway funds seem to be enforcable at this point.

  • joshuadf

    I'm guessing you deliberately left the “I-5″ part out of “I-5/surface/transit”. The money can definitely be used for the estimated $553m in I-5 work, which would reconfigure most of the downtown exits, including closing the Convention Place one to reuse the former ramps as another traffic lane. The rest of the gas tax could fund other projects. I'd personally like to see the long-promised HOV lanes on the Lake City Way part of SR-522, for example. Maybe some gas tax money for a new South Park Bridge? Hey, when there's over $1b that would be floating around for road projects I'm sure everyone will have lots of ideas.

  • joshuadf

    Some tunnel supporters are also waking up to the $4 toll:
    http://blog.seattlepi.com/insouthlakeunion/arch…

  • Gomez

    Moving the southern portal to its new location closer to the waterfront really complicated the problem. I'm sure the Pioneer Square had soil issues but this new area just fueled the anti-tunnel fire because this soil is probably more risky. It was a horrible decision.

  • Gomez

    The state's not going to give you that $2 billion if you don't rebuild the highway. They'll just re-allocate it to other state purposes. It's not Seattle's money to play with.

  • Gomez

    Well, WSDOT could also reallocate the money to other pressing projects like the 520 bridge.

  • Gomez

    We do know, however, they will not gift Seattle that $2.2 billion to build out Seattle's street and transit grid.

  • rickg

    Nice rhetoric. Now tell me, where are the cars that currently use the Viaduct going to go? How are those people going to get from place to place?

    Be specific – I dont care what other cities, did, how are those people going to make the trips they're making without a Viaduct or a Viaduct replacement?

    If you think they're all going to bike, you're not being realistic. Transit? Would a reasonable transit plan cover the same routes? And even if someone can get from, say, West Seattle to Belltown via transit are there trips that they then take because they have their car that they'd need a transit replacement for? IF so, will there be one? IF not, how do they do them?

  • David Robinson

    What are your engineering credentials to assess anything as being an extreme risk?

  • David Robinson

    Yes, I remember that “call bullshit” tactic from high school government class. It just makes lawmakers so *furious* when the People use that one. Rock on, dudes!

  • green taco

    The real advantage that the tunnel has is that the AWV will be in place and used during construction. If we are really lucky the state will run out of money to tear down the AWV when the tunnel is finished and we will have both, finally the capacity on the North-South corridor that we have needed for years.

  • Brian

    If the tunnel project blows up in this city's face after construction starts it will be impacting every other city issues because it will squeeze budgets and the tax base like we've never known. How happy would be be if they had to decide between a mile of tunnel or 100 police officers? That's a reality if the current issues are not resolved.

  • ivan

    He posts on blogs under several names, all on the same subject. What more credentials does anyone need?

  • joshuadf

    Well, for starters at least 50000 of the cars that currently use the Viaduct will be using surface streets because the DBT does not have exits at Columbia/Seneca or Western/Elliot.
    http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Questi…

    Of the remaining 60000 vehicles that the viaduct carries, depending on time of day they might use I-5 which has capacity except during peak commute. Other times depending on direction they could use the rebuilt surface SR-99 at Alaskan Way, Western Ave, 1st Ave, 2nd Ave, 4th Ave, 5th Ave, or 6th Ave. According to SDOT data, each of these streets have excess capacity and currently have fewer vehicles than many other arterials such as Denny Way or Boren Ave:
    http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/tfdmaps.htm

    This will make trips longer. I feel bad for the few people with the West Seattle to Ballard commute, but not $2b bad, especially since many other commutes of similar distance do not have a state highway at all let alone a deep bore tunnel.

    Lastly, this project is really only a minor part of the peak commute problem that also effects I-5, SR-520, SR-522, and many other roads. In my opinion the only viable option is to actually reduce traffic by giving commuters better options than driving alone at peak commute times: flexible work hours, carpools and vanpools via rideshareonline.com, more transit, reimbursement for cab rides in the case of unexpected emergencies, or even incentives to live closer to work.

  • Ziggity

    I'm not saying don't worry, I'm saying it's possible with a little hard work and collaboration to make this happen. Maybe that is unrealistic, but it's been proven successful in the past in a number of other places.

    You might not care what other cities have done, but that's how people tend to make big unprecedented decisions – they look at case studies and try and draw lessons from them. The induced demand factor of infrastructure is well-documented but poorly understood by officials in this affair. Probably because they chose the tunnel and its toll revenues first, then worked backwards from their to get it approved.

    How about being results oriented, not just shunting a bigger form of the same problem into place? By making transit options available, by improving I-5 and existing surface streets, and a number of other minor yet integral changes, you can manage demand, get the throughput results you're looking for without undertaking a megaproject.

    I agree Dan doesn't address the Viaduct removal issue. That is important and would have to be part of it. Dan Savage once said that if this were Chicago, a union guy in a dumptruck would've backed into it 8 years ago.

    Oh and . . . don't have an edit button because I'm not a registered user. You'll get over it.

  • rickg

    What!? Not registered!?!?! Heretic!! :)

    I hear what you're saying – I just think that we need to then *have* the discussion with an eye to moving toward doing something. We tend to want to complain and tear down proposals and, in general, talk forever but not do anything in Seattle. Talk is good – coming to the right decision is good – but too often we try to make everyone happy and make sure that no one is left out.

    We're, what, 5 years post-earthquake? If we're going to tear down the viaduct and not do a direct replacement then we need to get that moving, anticipate objections and have realistic answers to them, not merely “We hope…” answers.

    And I do get that other cities' experiences can be helpful, but I wonder how helpful since every city's different and the surrounding infrastructure affects things too.

  • rickg

    Thanks for the reply and the links. A couple of thoughts in return…

    First, when you say ” I feel bad for the few people with the West Seattle to Ballard commute, but not $2b bad…” I rather feel the same way about transit. After living in Seattle all my adult life (Belltown, Fremont, QA, Cap Hill… ) I'm in Shoreline now. On a day with clear, 60mph traffic, it takes me about 20 mins to get to or from downtown via car. On a poor day (rush hour) it takes 45 or so. The MAX I'd thus save with a light rail service to here is 25 mins and it would likely be less. So, do I feel billions of dollars bad for that much time? No, not really. So why not save the money on a northbound light rail spur? My point isn't that light rail is a bad idea, but that we can always say “well, is X really worth several billon?”

    Oh and this is key to me: “In my opinion the only viable option is to actually reduce traffic by giving commuters better options than driving alone at peak commute times: flexible work hours…” ESPECIALLY the idea of flexible hours. So many times in the morning I've left just before 9am… and been in terrible traffic. Leave at 9:15am? It's fine – because everyone has to be in their office by a set, arbitrary time. Fine for factory life, but it IS 2010…

  • alexbroner

    Just to clear up any misconceptions, the 18th amendment of the Washington State constitution governs gas tax money and it specifies that this money must be used for: “The necessary operating, engineering and legal expenses connected with the administration of public highways, county roads and city streets;” Thus there is nothing FORCING us to build highways, the law allows us to use the gas tax money for regular streets.

    Link: http://www.leg.wa.gov/lawsandagencyrules/pages/…

  • jazzerciser

    Dan,

    Thanks for becoming a leader on this, we dearly need one now that the our City Council has mostly checked itself into the asylum.

    Best all,

    jazzerciser

  • alexbroner

    Should we also build the RH Thompson expressway? Auto-infrastructure is extremely low capacity. It's impossible to ever catch up to demand. Creating more road space causes more people to live and work nearby and fill up the space yet again. This is what's called “induced demand”. In Los Angeles they've tried for years to expand the freeways and all they've managed to do is create bigger traffic jams.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    It is not a “rule”, dumbass.

  • Gomez

    Induced demand is a bogus theory that completely ignores the reality that a city's population in high-demand areas will always grow, and thus traffic will always increase regardless of what you do to increase or not increase capacity. There is no demand “induced” because the creation of additional capacity is not what's increasing traffic; it's simply the natural increase of population in cities that are at all desirable for outsiders to move to.

  • alexbroner

    So you're suggesting that when one expands capacity on a road way, people do not change their habits to use the new capacity?

  • sirkulat

    I choose to not be a lapdog, Robinson. I try to be analytical and fair. If I believed there would be no risk, I would say so. The record is clear. Bore tunnels cause sinkholes. Voids beneath building foundations can cause severe to catastrophic damage. There's also the risk of water seepage during construction and after.

    I've compared the engineering of all replacement options (DBT, Cut/cover, surface/transit, replacement viaduct) and can only conclude that the DBT is the worst option. It's only advantage is somewhat less construction disruption to motorists more than to the waterfront district.

    I have regretfully come to distrust WSDOT and SDOT directors because the evidence suggests these agencies unlawfully impair transportation system components of transit, pedestrian and bicycling.

    I have only two avatar names, Sirkulat and Wells. I would use just one, but registration forced me to pick a second name.

  • alexbroner

    And here it is: Seattle urban quality evaluation of alaskan way viaduct replacement strategies, by Ghel Architects in 2008.

    http://courses.washington.edu/gehlstud/Resource…

  • alexbroner

    It's true, “call bullshit” doesn't sound very practical. That said, so far Seattle's elected officials have only managed to unite when demanding funding for highways so it's hard to imagine the current set uniting to demand that we be able to use this money for something other than highways. The problem isn't that Seattle leaders (city council and state legislature) are trying to change or work around restrictions in the 18th amendment and not succeeding, it's that they're not trying.

  • misha

    Hey, this crazy guy down the street offered to spend $10000 of his own gasoline and matches to burn down the city! OMG we have to take him up on his offer or he'll just take his $10000 somewhere else!!!

  • Mr. X

    There are 80,000 + people in West Seattle and a similar number who live west of SR99 within Seattle – let alone our neighboring communities – who need to get from point a to point b. Dumb analogy.

  • misha

    Wow, that sucks for those 80,000 people right now. They don't have a tunnel with a $4 toll each way right now so they're stuck at point A for the next few years. :(

    Oh science, why didn't you invent a way to get from point A to point B besides the largest deep bore tunnel ever????

  • Transpo Guy

    Very thoughtful. I would also add congestion pricing to your list. Not just congestion pricing, but congestion pricing where the revenue goes to fund transit.

  • Bill in the CD

    “The biggest risk is not responding rapidly and aggressively to our looming environmental crises, and thereby failing to transform Seattle into a city that will thrive through the coming decades”

    part of the problem is that we have a massive downtown that has 60% of its workers coming from outside of the city.

    it seems that the current strategy is to build massive transit systems – be it tunnels/roads or light rail – to get people in and out of the city for work. these systems however are less useful for trips other than “work”, which is why for example at TOD developments in the Bay Area, people still use SOV for 80% of their trips.

    what will make Seattle thrive during the coming decades is to find a way to get more people that work in the city to live in the city. and to move some jobs out to the outlying areas where people live. and to apply some adaptive re-use to our overbuilt downtown that can't support itself without its surrounding sprawl.

    sadly our current plans are big money sinks and only continue to support Seattle's massive investment in its downtown. meanwhile, transit for most residents of Seattle remains sub-par for a “world class city” with aspirations of going car-less. if we are truly concerned about a dramatic shift in the “rules of the game” because of climate change and peak oil, we're not thinking broad enough…

  • ivan

    Those 80,000 people have a Viaduct. Another Viaduct would be just fine.

  • Gomez

    You probably want to read my last comment again, because you clearly missed the point.

    The additional traffic after a highway expansion does not come from people “changing their habits”. It comes from new people moving into the city and using those roads like everyone else.

  • Gomez

    Oops, you skipped an important sentence:

    All fees collected by the State of Washington as license fees for motor vehicles and all excise taxes collected by the State of Washington on the sale, distribution or use of motor vehicle fuel and all other state revenue intended to be used for highway purposes, shall be paid into the state treasury and placed in a special fund to be used exclusively for highway purposes.

    The sentence you cite regards an example of what falls under the highway purposes terminology. Many U.S. and state highways also double as city and county roads. SR-99 is one of them: Much of that roadway operates as a surface street in King and Snohomish Counties.

    Look at this list of completed WSDOT projects from the last several years and tell me how many did not involve a U.S./State highway or a railway.

    Any work done on other surface streets is handled by local transportation agencies. In our case in Seattle, the Seattle DOT handles the remaining roadways within City limits, and King County DOT handles other work outside of Seattle as well as the Metro transit system. If you want the surface/transit dream to happen, those two agencies need to find their own money to make it happen.

  • alexbroner

    “induced demand is a bogus theory that completely ignores the reality that a city's population in high-demand areas will always grow, and thus traffic will always increase regardless of what you do to increase or not increase capacity.”

    Induced demand is not meant to explain away all increases in traffic and does not claim to. Clearly population growth will increase traffic. It's not clear to me how you justify calling the theory of induced demand a “bogus theory”. Would you care to explain?

    “There is no demand “induced” because the creation of additional capacity is not what's increasing traffic; it's simply the natural increase of population in cities that are at all desirable for outsiders to move to.”

    Again, the above quote does not engage with the theory of induced demand, only assert that it doesn't exist.
    Perhaps you would care to explain further.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

  • alexbroner

    yes, and highway purposes are defined as including city and county streets. My point remains: it is completely within the law to spend the money on city streets.

  • alexbroner

    I anticipate that burning down the city will involve a lot of cost overruns.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    This is the simplest of facts, and agree.
    As an example, putting light rail on 520, is that so you can shuttle people to their sprawl more efficiently?
    This goes directly to the mega-dumb west side light rail. There are plenty of ways to get downtown. Supplanting buses for rails doesn't supplant cars going some place else.

    The question is: where are all those evil cars going?
    I can tell you that on my end of town the few buses that make their way to north Seattle almost all run downtown. When I am on jury duty (it's the only time I get a break from work) I can walk a few blocks, passing many houses with many cars, and catch a bus that takes me right downtown. If I worked there I would not own a second car (that's right, second).

    As long as people like Dan think Shoreline needs light rail we will struggle with redefining what “mixed use” should really mean.
    People need work that affords a living wage close enough to your upzones so that we don't have a “walkable” community as something you need a mass transit system to supplement.

    Simple survey should be done, some DOT could pull the addresses of all the cars, identify where there is more than one at a given address, or high ratio of cars to addresses, and send a survey asking where a bus would have to go in order to be able to give up that car.
    I say bus because they can be deployed and redeployed as populations migrate closer to their work (good luck with that part).

  • serial_catowner

    Typical Dan Bertolet, 90% rant playing to the peanut gallery.

    But if the biggest opportunity cost is not bicycling and walking, why don't you start bicycling and walking? I commuted to work in Seattle on a bike for 15 years and it wasn't that hard. Are you going to sit around on your hands until someone builds you a velvet bikeway?

    It certainly has been a spectacle, watching the distortions and outright lies of the tunnel-haters beat like surf against a seawall of public officials who have actually studied the numbers- thankfully, a seawall even stronger than the supposedly crumbling seawall on Seattle's waterfront.

    Shouldn't McGinn be selling souvenir fragments from that seawall he was going to tear down by now? This was an EMERGENCY!!, remember?

    Well, at least the tunnel-haters are now admitting that their plan is to put all the traffic on surface streets and let God sort it out. As for Seattle being so important that the rest of the state just HAS to do what Seattle says- Bwaw-waw-ha-ha-ha! ROFLMAO!

  • sirkulat

    No one should worry about keeping the AWV or building some version of Choppaduct. NOT going to happen.

    Everyone should worry about extreme risks the DBT poses to downtown buildings during construction and forever after. Everyone should worry about the environmental impacts of DBT-displaced traffic upon Alaskan Way, Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union, Denny Way and Westlake/Nickerson corridors.

    Seattlers could consider the “dreadful inconvenience” of construction disruption imposed upon them to build the “Council approved” Tunnelite as a sort of due penance. Seattlers think a little too highly of themselves, that's for sure.

  • sirkulat

    No one should worry about keeping the AWV or building some version of Choppaduct. NOT going to happen.

    Everyone should worry about extreme risks the DBT poses to downtown buildings during construction and forever after. Everyone should worry about the “environmental impacts” of “DBT-Displaced Traffic” upon Alaskan Way, Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union, Denny Way and Westlake/Nickerson corridors.

    Seattlers could consider the “dreadful inconvenience” of construction disruption imposed upon them to build the “Council Approved” cut/cover Tunnelite as a sort of due penance. Seattlers think a little too highly of themselves, that's for sure.

  • Soapboxin'

    Dan, I call bullshit on 10% unemployment, Goldman Sachs, the BP oil spill, the wars in Irag and Afghanistan, the European debt crisis, outlawing being gay in Uganda.
    -
    You sound like you're Bill Murray in Meatballs or Stripes, making the big motivational speech that spurs the geeks, losers, and misfits to overcome the odds and win, win, win! Thus, your heart's in the right place, but I can't take this seriously.

  • Soapboxin'

    And some of us have lived and driven in other places where tolls are an accepted way of life. I will definitely get a good laugh out of all the bitching and moaning about it. As much as I have enjoyed living here for 11 years, I've never seen such a bunch of pathetic whiners. I don't want to pay it either, but I won't feel that it's unfair.

  • Soapboxin'

    One thing's for sure. People who live in Portland, like you, don't need to worry about it.

  • Soapboxin'

    DBT = Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. Might help some of the players in this decision. Check it out: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/

  • The Bankruptcy

    Someday, crank up Google Maps and look at Seattle. Zoom out. It's a penninsula, right. Of course it will be forever “too crowded” because it's surrounded by water with only one narrow land exit.

    Now zoom out. Again. Look at the Puget Sound. If you were to decide where to build a “center” where would it be? Not Seattle.

    So long as planner pile error upon error upon error the public will be forever bilked by shady politicians who are screeching “emergency”.

    The city is dead. Culture is on the Web. I can get it anywhere. I can socialize through facebook. If something interesting is happening, I want to get in my car, drive on a speedy highway and find free parking there. I don't want to work in a “skyscaper”. I want to work in a 3 story building near my apartment, and I want to be able to park there and then go to lunch at a mall.

    This is how America lives in 2010. Most of it. But not in Seattle. Seattle is so…special.

  • The Bankruptcy

    No it isn't safe.

    So tear it down and route traffic on to Alaskan and I-5.

    That's the only thing they should be doing if there is this “emergency”.

    Once that happens then they can see the outcome and decide on additional measures.

  • West Seattle Herald
  • sirkulat

    Portlanders are right to worry about crimes committed by corrupt transportation planning officials right under the noses of their clueless constituents. The DBT is a national disgrace. Portlanders are worried about WSDOT's influence upon the Columbia River Crossing of I-5 freeway project which exhibits the same hallmarks of irresponsible planning as the DBT and SR520 floating bridge: Overbuilt, Overpriced and Extreme Environmental Impact.

    Thanks, Soapboxin, for again showing how DBT supporters are clueless.

  • West Seattle Herald
  • Soapboxin'

    Let's get this straight:
    1. You claim to have superior engineering expertise
    2. You claim to have knowledge of widespread corruption
    3. You stalk comment boards on topics that have no immediate bearing on your life.

    Did this all start when Grace Crunican came here from OR? You were so addicted to criticizing her that you followed her career here in Seattle, and now you've latched onto the AWV project. Get a life. I care because I live here, I vote, and I pay taxes.

  • sirkulat

    Then add something useful to the debate or be a vote-selling lapdog, soapboxin. I submitted drawings to SDOT depicting the simplest cut/cover mere months after the quake in 2001. WSDOT spent several years studying many impossibly expensive tunnels before grudgingly admitting Tunnelite would work. Then, WSDOT campaigned against it in 2007 but studied it for another year after its rejection to produce Scenario 'G'. There's plenty of evidence that Crunican's SDOT also distorted the planning process. It should be obvious that Seattle is in huge trouble with its transportation planning.

  • The Future

    That's all well and good for misfits who apparently enjoy posting while drinking, but until I see the mass of moving vans descending on Seattle, I think I'll side with the people who actually know something.

    Besides, your little George Jetson speed-about-on-fast-highways world is quickly coming to an end. The cities are where it's at, and the suburbs are the future slums.

    Tear the viaduct down and don't replace it. Develop the land. Who cares if it inconveniences drivers? Just add more transit.

  • Soapboxin'

    You poor thing. They rejected your drawings and your brilliant ideas. That automatically defines them as stupid and corrupt. And anyone who agrees with them is a clueless lapdog. But you'll show them, won't you? You'll never give up the fight. You'll be babbling incoherently about Tunnelite in the nursing home. Meanwhile, I'll still be waiting for a decent public transportation system as I find new and creative ways to avoid gridlock and tolls. That's because I live in this reality (Seattle), not in your parallel universe (Portland).

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Your view is yours but does not match the reality of the rest of this planet:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/au…

  • ivan

    Another urbanazi heard from, another little eco-Savonarola. PUNISH those drivers! Make them SUFFER! How about we build transit BEFORE we start tearing down highways?

  • sirkulat

    My 2001 drawings are the equivalent of Tunnelite, with the same rebuilding of SR99 below Elliott and Western in Lower Belltown and near the same portals. WSDOT wasted years on “prohibitively expensive” tunnel designs because their only intent was to build an elevated replacement up til its 2007 voter rejection. WSDOT is corrupt. It took years to convince members of the public (who aren't clueless lapdogs like you) that the less expensive, more sensible Tunnelite was possible. And the BS you parrot has allowed WSDOT to hamstring Tunnelite again.

  • Soapboxin'

    Am I really a clueless lapdog, or is it just as much that the anti-tunnel crowd fails to change my mind because it generally falls into one or more of the following categories?:

    1. Anti-car activists who have good intentions, but tend to be a little too idealistic to avoid alienating the ordinary, garden-variety Seattle liberal.

    2. Fear-mongerers and conspiracy theorists. People who are convinced that they have the clearest vision of the future. Even scarier when they offer up solutions…

    3. Opinionated Wonks. You guys are somewhat reasonable, but I still don't fully understand why you're so determined to stop this thing.

    We've been around and around this debate, and no one is changing their mind.

    I'd say, vote on it once and for all, but only if it's a fair choice. No biasing questions like, 'should we build it even if we're on the hook for cost overruns.' Just an up or down on the current proposal vs. surface/transit.

    I can live with surface/transit. I can't continue to live with all of this endless bullshit.

  • mobility anyone?

    If it was really unsafe, they'd close the AWV NOW

    This whole thing is a boondoggle for WSDOT to spend its unregulated gusher of gas tax revenues….this is the hegemony of the automobile at its worst….to think that the State of Washington for its next huge project, is going to do something unprecedented, risky, huge, costly, etc. all to get four lanes on a two mile stretch of highway so motorists can save an estimate 6-12 minutes in driving from Shoreline to Burien is ridiculous.

    China is building high speed rail between Beijing and Shanghai and about 12 other cities, SPAIN has better transportation than we do, and we're investing all this cash into a short little two mile stretch of highway? WTF?
    Sine a 54 foot tunnel is so much, a regular subway tube tunnel would be far less, so perhaps we could have a train in a tube tunnel underdowntown then elevate it on either end and presto, we'd have our west side line (some kind of Skytrain that goes underground downtown) and areal X system covering the city and likely this would be only about $3 billion. But this adds real mobility and is worth it.

    “Oh excuse, me, the 18th Amendment requires that this money here be spent on something really really supid and ineffectual in moving people — we are shackled by our political institutions, so we won't be making smart investments. Of course, we'll end up like Argentina in terms of a declining standard or living, but that'st he price you pay for the special rights of the automobile to grab all the tax dollars — that was the brilliance of the 18th amendment, you see!”

    Never mind. Our course is doomed, but at least now we can understand our stupidity and our grandchildren will have a very clear understanding of how we chose to go to ruin thru wasteful choices like a highway DBT for a few billion that doesn't add hardly any mass mobility.

    65,000 trips a day. This is nothing for the 3 million in the area. What a joke.

  • sarah68

    I'm afraid this is not about you, Sirkulat. The more you provide comments dominated by “I” and “my”, the less you'll be taken seriously.

  • Bill

    “The suburbs are the future slums”, “Develop the land”.”Just add more transit”

    This is the problem with the new breed of Seattle “urbanist”. They misapply principles of the new urbanism (which is meant to address the problem in the suburbs), they aren't grounded in economic reality, and they have a utopian and incomplete vision of how this all will work and how long it will take.

    It boils down to: all we have to do is just build our way out of this mess…

  • MudBaby

    Guess what? There already is a four lane surface roadway on Alaskan Way, and no room to add additional lanes where it gets choked with traffic in the summer when the Pork of Seattle's Cruise Liner Terminal disgorges thousands of passengers at a time into taxis, buses and cars that suck up a couple of lanes during arrivals and departures of these floating behemoths. That's because this area is permanently constricted by the BNSF tracks. Anyone who has ever dealt with railroads on right-of-way issues will tell you it would take something beyond an act of Congress to relocate these tracks. In addition, all of the traffic on this so-called “surface option” will have to stop and wait for trains many times a day unless some kind of grotesquely large, view-blocking grade separation is built at the north end of the new highway.

    Given all this and the only modest traffic improvements that could be gained by closing the Convention Center ramps and adding another lane to I-5, there is just no way that adding the viaduct's existing 90,000+ vehicle trips per day to downtown Seattle's streets would not lead to Manhattan-style gridlock.

    There is no way this outcome could be called “green,” although it would be par for the course in Seattle, the city with green intentions that aspires to be Manhattanesque in all the bad ways due to the lack of little amenities like subways, Central Park, schools, grocery stores, etc.

  • MudBaby

    The Nisqually Earthquake that heavily damaged the viaduct occurred 9 and a half years ago, on February 28, 2001.

  • sirkulat

    Oh please… Whatever. Some readers I'm sure have the integrity to appreciate my experience and perspective. One day you'll add something to the discussion, Sarah, but I doubt anyone looks forward to reading more of your vacuous political banter.

  • West Seattle Herald

    Forgive our naivete but could someone explain how, in clear terms, attempting to dig a 56 foot wide tunnel, in this kind of soil, is less risky or somehow more appealing than the idea proposed by Architect Roger Patten, the Elliott Bay Bridge? If the idea is to move traffic, people, light rail and more on a north south corridor, how is a LESS expensive bridge that also addresses the seawall, and areas south of downtown not worth taking more seriously? The links to our stories are above in the thread. We are not promoting the concept, just asking why it did not get more serious consideration since the 'bouyancy pier system' is not difficult to test.

  • MudBaby

    Thanks for the fascinating link!

  • sirkulat

    Indeed Seattle urbanists misapply the principles of New Urbanism and stress density instead of diversity. New Urbanism's main principle is “mixed-use” development. Inner-city Seattle has a more complete mix of uses than surrounding suburban cities which are largely residential. Reducing the traditional commute from suburb to Seattle (also reducing cross-county commuting) requires suburbs to develop complementary uses to their residential development pattern. If Seattle gets the lion's share of development, it only increases the demand for commuting to Seattle, not all of which can be met via mass transit. Development potential of the suburbs is much greater, and its implementation more practical, more desirable and more necessary, than city center development. Not to say that downtown Seattle isn't a mess in need of redevelopment. Downtown Seattle development however shouldn't be viewed as the be-all end-all of modern living.

  • MudBaby

    LOL. People who live in Portland have Tom McCall park along their downtown shoreline.

  • Utopian

    Yes, because everyone knows that the land the viaduct stands on is absolutely worthless, and there's no opportunity for development there.

  • Donolectic

    Stop projecting.

  • sirkulat

    Sarah has little to add and apparently neither have you. Projecting? I'll thank you to keep your psycho-babble nonsense to yourself.

  • The Bankruptcy

    “Last I heard, Seattle was the most important economic center in the region.”

    Seattle like the other 29 metro centers are dead.

    Overstaffed bureaucracies create ever more absurd “projects” to justify their former glory.

    Meanwhile real work, homes and play are in the exurbs like Kent.

    Seattle is the Wicked Witch of the Center.

  • The Bankruptcy

    Oh, well, that's another self-fulfilling prophecy to the Vulcan ripoff. Create an unnecessary project for a dying city and temporarily bring in a lot of workers to (yet again) bubble up real estate values.

    You're only prolonging the Date of Reckoning, folks…

  • Donolectic

    Oh John…

  • Donolectic

    Well someone's an angry little mister.

  • Are you drunk?

    You really shouldn't drink alone – and the internet doesn't count as company.

  • Kent is a dying city

    Well, Kent IS one of the best places to score meth.

  • sirkulat

    For the most part, I try to further the discussion and do not make personal attacks upon other posters. I've flagged your post, pal, ie, requested that forum monitors remove your post(s). If all you have to contribute is harrassment, then leave me alone. Have a nice day.

  • MudBaby

    Kent is chock full of empty tilt-up concrete warehouses that would be great places to live, work and play. The Bankruptcy could score a great lease one one of these buildings. Some of them are big enough to house several families, a bunch of factory jobs and an couple of indoor tennis courts. The question is, what does any of this have to do with replacing the viaduct?

  • Gomez

    Induced demand is not meant to explain away all increases in traffic and does not claim to

    Um, so why does everyone (yourself included) cite it in claims that building highways in itself will create more traffic?

  • Gomez

    Right, as long as the streets in question are also state highways.

  • Gomez

    One misconception is that cars will become obsolete should oil disappear, while ignoring that alternative fuel sources for cars can and probably will be developed in the next 20-30 years. Petroleum may go away, but cars are not going away. Time to sober up on the 'no cars' pipe dream.

  • sirkulat

    The proposed Elliott Bay bridge would be as much a visual monstrosity as the AWV. There's also concerns about shipping navigation. It was considered, but dropped probably for those reasons, or because WSDOT had enough other options to waste years studying. Until the March 2007 vote, their only intent was to build a replacement viaduct. Why else would they study the prohibitively expensive tunnels first? Even after that vote, WSDOT studied the least expensive cut/cover for another year, so, they must believe it's possible. A 'stacked' SIX-LANE cut/cover is possible to construct while leaving the AWV in place and operating. I believe WSDOT honchos found the worst replacement option with the DBT. The Mercer West project is likewise terribly engineered. It makes no sense whatsoever to widen Mercer Street to 6-lanes and rebuild the Aurora overpass. The Broad Street Underpass would readily support a fine southbound entrance to the DBT, Tunnelite or the surface/transit option. What the hell?

  • Soapboxin'

    Beeeeep. This is a recording.

    Check out Tebow. Isn't he just the cutest little thing?
    http://www.pbase.com/laurenmarciano/image/10976…