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Parsing Conlin’s Tunnel Pitch

Last Saturday, the Seattle Times published an interview with Seattle City Council President Richard Conlin headlined “Conlin makes pitch for tunnel to replace viaduct.” Some pitch.

Every benefit of the tunnel claimed by Conlin applies just as well to the I-5/surface/transit option, which would replace the viaduct with a mix of improvements to I-5, SR-99, surface roads, and public transit. By my read, in fact, the only tunnel-specific rationale left standing is that the state of Washington has the power to make the decision, and Seattle must abide by it.

Think I’m unfairly simplifying? Let’s see:

Conlin: “…the tunnel accomplishes a number of different things with fewer risks than the other alternatives.”

Unfortunately, Conlin doesn’t elaborate on what, exactly, those risks are. It seems unlikely, though, that he’s talking about the risk of boring the largest-diameter tunnel ever attempted in the world. Allow me to suggest that the “risk” he’s referring to here is the (unsubstantiated) fear that the I-5/surface/transit alternative wouldn’t work, and we’d end up with gridlock on I-5. But the city, county, and state Departments of Transportation had no such fears when they all signed off on I-5/Surface/Transit. And the city’s own Urban Mobility Plan provides in-depth support for that view.

Conlin: “…[the tunnel] being able to provide security and reliability in the transportation system.”

Conlin offers no specifics about why the tunnel would excel in these areas, and I’m at a loss to come up with any myself. In fact, one could argue that a system utilizing multiply redundant surface street grid connections and more alternatives to single-occupant vehicles is actually more secure and reliable than a bypass tunnel for cars with only one way in and one way out.

Conlin: “We get rid of the unsafe viaduct.”

Never mind that compared to I-5/Surface/Transit, the tunnel option leaves that unsafe viaduct standing for an additional four to five years.

Conlin: “…and we create a new and safe corridor.”

The implication here seems to be that the tunnel is the safe option, and that alternatives like I-5/surface/transit are unsafe. But I know of no basis for such a claim. What am I missing?

Conlin: “It creates for us the great waterfront park that we’re looking for…”

Yes, and so does I-5/surface/transit. And if so much of the state’s contribution didn’t have to be spent building the deep-bore tunnel, we could use it on the surface to create the kind of great waterfront street that would provide a worthy complement to a world-class waterfront park.

Many people assume that I-5/surface/transit would require a huge freeway down Alaskan Way. But the fact is, I-5/surface/transit was designed to move so many car trips out of the Alaskan Way corridor that even a four-lane roadway could handle the traffic.

In contrast, with the tunnel, we could end up with even more traffic on the waterfront. Tolling and the lack of downtown exits will encourage drivers to use the waterfront surface street instead of the tunnel. And unlike I-5/surface/transit, the tunnel option doesn’t include the additional transit service and improvements to I-5 and the street grid that would  reduce car trips in the Alaskan Way corridor. (I-5/surface/transit would also avoid both the traffic bottlenecks and the massive dead zones in the urban fabric associated with the tunnel portals and ventilation buildings.)

Conlin: “If cost overruns take place, then we’ll have to figure it out.”

Last January, Conlin told the West Seattle Herald that “There won’t be any cost overruns” on the tunnel. Meanwhile, the state assures us that “we intend to bring the project in on time and on budget.” Neither argument—that there won’t be any cost overruns on one hand, and that we’ll “figure it out” on the other—is reassuring.

Conlin: “Ultimately the mayor really doesn’t have the ability to stop it anyway, as the legislature demonstrated when they created that bill that would have declared an emergency on transportation projects and overridden local regulations.”

Although Conlin does add that he was glad the legislature didn’t pass the bill, he’s putting himself in the politically awkward position of appearing to be thankful that the state would force their will on Seattle if the mayor found a way to stop the tunnel. It’s a dubious stance for a Seattle politician to take.

Conlin: “…it’s going to be a great benefit to us in our growth-management strategy… to make our urban centers places where people want to live and people want to have jobs. We expect this is going to create a lot of interest and attention for people who want to develop new housing downtown, people who want to develop new jobs downtown, and that’s going to be a benefit for everybody.”

There is some truth in what Conlin is saying here, but all told, the negative impacts of the tunnel would far outweigh the benefits he cites. Not to mention that the benefits he cites would also accrue from the I-5/surface/transit alternative. The only real difference is that the that the (unsafe) viaduct could be left in service until the tunnel opened.

Here’s the reality: If our goal is to create a sustainable urban core with a high-density of housing and jobs, then spending billions on new infrastructure for cars is the last thing we ought to be doing. Dense, sustainable cities require transit, not cars. And across the U.S, history has shown that bypass freeways make it easier to speed through and avoid any interaction with the urban core, promoting car-dependent sprawl and the increased greenhouse gas emissions and toxic runoff that come with it.

Over the long term, the cities that wean themselves from car dependence will become the prosperous cities of the future. The operative forces span the spectrum from economic to environmental to social. Given the world that anyone who’s paying attention can see coming, spending huge piles of our dwindling public funds on new, unnecessary freeways is irresponsible, if not immoral. Clearly, too many of the state of Washington’s leaders don’t get that. But that doesn’t excuse those who know better for going along with them.


  • Stacy

    Right on Dan, right on.

  • Gomez

    It's always easy to quote a brief interview summarizing hundreds of pages/hours of research out of context to make it say what you want, especially when you twist it to mean something it doesn't.

  • Mr. X

    Please provide information on these mythical improvements to I-5 and transit, both of which are unfunded (and in the case of I-5, not feasible given the constraints that result from limited rights-of-way, etc).

  • Mr. X

    Oh, and I'll happily continue driving on the “unsafe” AWV for as long as WSDOT lets me – I personally find the 1 in 20 risk of an earthquake that will leave the AWV “unusable” (vs. catastrophically failed, which fearmongers with other agendas repeatedly conflate with being left “unusable”) quite acceptable, thank you very much.

  • Milt E. Modahl

    I 5 has tons of wasted space. If you lowered the speed limit to 45 you would not need shoulders and you would get more lanes, improving flow rate thru put markedly. You can also dedicate the express lanes to transit and line the shoulders of I5 up and down seattle with bus stops accessed by new construction of staircases from the street grid down to the I 5 pavement creating a super-express super rapid transit bus service which if it had super limited stops (e.g., only where there are exits or overpasses today) would add to the flow rate through put of this corridor that's horribly underutilized and inefficient because so much of it is dedicated to the SOV.

    Another change to I 5 would be to create pull out zones on the shoulders and allow folks to pick up other folks for $ ending the transit monopoly. I am sure web apps would develop as well as little “famillies” of riders, thus turning wasteful SOV into cars full of 2, 3 and 4 people, and lowering costs of commuting.

    There are a million ideas, if only people would step outside the auto dominated frame of mind which can only see what is, not what easily and cheaply could be.

  • N8

    True, True!

    Cyclists do you want more cars on surface streets??

  • N8

    “Although Conlin does add that he was glad the legislature didn’t pass the bill, he’s putting himself in the politically awkward position of appearing to be thankful that the state would force their will on Seattle if the mayor found a way to stop the tunnel. It’s a dubious stance for a Seattle politician to take.”

    They state would not be forcing its will on Seattle, the council voted 9-0 to support the tunnel, it would be forcing McGinn to shut up and follow through on his campaign promise to not oppose the tunnel!

  • N8

    You have to have at least one shoulder for emergency vehicles. And I wonder if more lanes on a freeway always equal better flowing traffic, cause according to all these bike nuts and transpo nuts, more lanes equal more congestion.

  • guest

    “If our goal is to create a sustainable urban core with a high-density of housing and jobs…”

    What if, dare I say, the goal is to look beyond the boundaries of the central business district? Could it be that connectivity with the rest of the region is at least as important as creating livable neighborhoods?

  • Mr. X

    Milt,

    You're on crack. Seriously.

  • Soapboxin'

    Here's a good reason or two – $2.8 billion in state funding and the full weight of the Governor. If we were in the same position w/the surface/transit option (i.e., haters trying any possible tactic to stall the project), I would feel the same as I do now. Surface/transit or tunnel, I don't care. Just build it and shut up already.
    -
    And one piece of nitpicking, if I may. When you say, “Over the long term, the cities that wean themselves from car dependence will become the prosperous cities of the future,” are you implying that places like Houston and Dallas are doomed? They seem to be doing much better than the rest of the country right now. I too wish we had a public transit system as comprehensive as real cities, like NYC, Chicago, DC, SF. But let's not get carried away.

  • Adam Bejan Parast

    Connectivity is important, but it should come from transit not a new highway. West Seattle to Ballard HCT increase connectivity and creates livable neighborhoods.

  • alexbroner

    Who's research? Conlin's? How does it take Conlin's words “out of context”? The context of his words is the deep bore tunnel. The article is about the deep bore tunnel. It does place his words in the context of that the surface transit option does. The surface transit option is one of the two alternatives developed by the viaduct replacement stakeholders group. The tunnel was considered too expensive. (The other being the elevated replacement.)

  • alexbroner

    Cyclist safety is more a function of how many cyclists there are than how many cars (there are already many cars on the streets). Increasing the number of cyclists decreases the number of car vs cyclist accidents because drivers learn to expect (and avoid) cyclists. The surface transit option combined with fully funding the bicycle master plan will increase the number of cyclist on the streets. The tunnel in contrast encourages people to drive.

  • alexbroner

    This is not “mythical” but rather a plan developed and signed off on by the city and state DOT. Rather than summarize it here I'll merely link to the WSDOT document so you can read it yourself.

    http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/FAF9612A-D…

  • alexbroner

    SR99 and I5 are part of the same system, just as I90 and 520 are.
    Under the surface transit option, the total lanes of freeway between SR99 and I5 would go down.

    http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/FAF9612A-D…

  • voter

    Nice writing, Dan. Too bad Conlin has drifted pretty far away from his original thinking on the Viaduct.

  • Soapboxin'

    Good article posted on this topic today by Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2258675/

  • alexbroner

    Houston and Dallas are both expanding their public transit in the form of light rail. As the price of oil increases during the recovery we'll see more pressure on auto-dependence. If present trends in oil demand and supply continue over coming decades then auto-dependent places will find themselves very squeezed. I suspect that many will adapt with a combination of mass transit and electric cars. Unfortunately this may not come soon enough to avert a lot of human induced global warming and the unfortunate consequences of this climate change. We're going to have to build a bigger seawall.

  • TheBankrupcy

    How about a different perspective?

    Instead of thinking of Seattle downtown as a pleasant place…think of it designed to be a hellhole.

    So, of course you would build insane tunnels and pour scads of concrete and populate its parks with intravenous drug users and knife wielding thugs.

    Given that logic, I guess I'm for the tunnel, since it might act as a magnet, drawing in all the bad awful things to Seattle and keeping the surrounding low density areas pristine.

  • cyn cyn cynical

    Questions: If Seattle goes with a surface option, aren't we then on the hook for the cost of the entire project since the state will take back the money it has committed to the tunnel? How much does the surface option cost?

  • guest

    Yeah sure, but transit here only connects to the central business district. WS to Ballard HCT is long overdue. What I find to be disingenuous is the characterization of this as a “new” highway, since it replaces existing capacity, albeit, at great and controversial expense. I just find the comments by this author to be somewhat divorced from the legitimate concerns raised by removing an existing highway.

  • N8

    Probably not, because the state can't just remove the viaduct and dump all of those cars onto city streets without some kind of mitigation. And I do mean dump all of those cars because most people will not switch to other options.

  • N8

    But in the end people will realize that $4, $5 or $6/gallon really isn't that expensive when they see all of the benefits that they get out of it. As long as my monthly gas bill is lower than my cellphone bill, I'm not going to waste two hours a day cycling/showering/changing/changing again/cycling/showering/changing yet again to switch from my 50-minute round trip commute by car.

    If Seattle is serious about climate change, they could do more about it by raising their electricity rates than a surface/transit option would do. Its cheap electricity encourages waste, which then leaves less hydroelectricity for the rest of the nation which uses coal.

  • Gomez

    You seriously think Conlin's citing his own concocted ideas and research, instead of the research and work of numerous civil engineers from numerous groups?

  • Gomez

    Aside from regs requiring a highway shoulder, you run into one other big problem with expanding I-5 capacity to the brim: The highway is supported by aging, thin pillars along the hillside between Downtown and the north end of Eastlake. The supports south of Downtown were retrofitted, but these were not: Due to the more difficult terrain it's much more difficult and expensive for the state to do so.

    If you add capacity to that stretch of I-5 without spending a considerable amount to retrofit those supports, you run the significant risk of a freeway collapse that could kill hundreds, maybe thousands as those supports may not be able to hold up a highway carrying that many vehicles.

    I-5's pretty much at its maximum capacity otherwise. To expand that capacity you'd probably have to shut that roadway completely down and rebuild it. It's not nearly as easy to retrofit as the south stretch was.

  • Gomez

    In asking that, you're implying Dan did any objective research before stating that conclusion, or is speaking from any sort of expertise beyond a one-dimensional wonkish agenda.

    Predictions are bunk anyway. Here's a prediction for you: The era of the “expert” is over.

  • Gomez

    Yes they would, and yes we would be, per the parameters of the project funding. The chances of such a situation happening are very slim, however, since the state considers the completion of the replacement highway a priority.

  • Soapboxin'

    I'm an experienced traffic engineer. I donate my expert opinion here on Publicola as a public service to my fellow Seattleites. You're a traffic engineer, too, aren't you?

  • Mr. X

    How ironic – we are told that one of the reasons the AWV cannot be retrofitted is that is has narrow lanes and no shoulders, but this proposal (which I doubt the feds would sign off on, btw) would eliminate the shoulders on a stretch of I-5 that lacks any other exits and would also probably narrow the lanes there.

    This “plan” offers jack shit for the tens of thousands of people who live west of the SR 99 corridor and who use the AWV to bypass downtown Seattle….

  • alexbroner

    I don't know what research Conlin is citing because he doesn't indicate his sources.

  • Adam Bejan Parast

    I think if you take a look a the I-5/transit/surface alternative in detail you will find it grounded in facts. Yes it restricts cars more than now but that is a debate about the kind of city you want, not so much about whether you can make it work or not. Also in a constrained funding environment you have to ask the question. Should we be spending 4+ billion on a tunnel when that money would easily build a West Seattle to Ballard light rail line.

  • joshuadf

    Here is a recent WSDOT design concept of the North Portal just east of the Gates Foundation and Seattle Center:
    http://www.poststat.net/pwp011/pub.49/issue.137…
    The Deep Bore Tunnel north portal be 10 lanes of traffic (counting ramps) taking a full city block, plus another half block for the Tunnel Support Building. Republican St will be used by traffic heading to I-5 north, making the street (next to Glazer Camera) a de facto freeway ramp.

    More North portal info here:
    http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/workin…

    This also assumes that the unfunded new larger overpass Mercer West Phase II project is already in place, of course. It's estimated to cost $105m:
    http://www.cityofseattle.net/transportation/mer…

  • TranspoGuy

    Presumably those aging, thin pillars will have to be replaced or retrofitted at some point, even with maintaining existing capacity. What's the plan for that? And how much?

  • Gomez

    And there you go. This undercuts the citation of I-5 as a replacement for the viaduct's lost capacity in a surface/transit option, doesn't it?

  • Gomez

    No, but I did save a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico.

  • Soapboxin'

    And stayed at Holiday Inn Express???

  • joshuadf

    AASHTO (an organization of the state DOTs) actually said I-5 should be the top priority:
    http://expandingcapacity.transportation.org/unl…

    “Built in the 1960s, I-5’s pavement is deteriorating. Fifty-percent of the pavement is past its replacement life or needs replacement within five years; another 40 percent should be replaced within 10 years and the remaining 10 percent should be replaced within the next 10—15 years. Of an estimated $2 billion needed to replace I-5 pavement, Washington’s legislature has provided $21 million to begin repairs to fix some of the worst areas.”

  • kurisu

    Um, the Spokane Street Viaduct widening comes to mind.

  • N8

    The 'mythical' I-5/surface price tag: $3.3 Billion. Deep Bore Tunnel price tag: $2.8 billion.

  • jns

    Damn, hit 'like' instead of 'reply'… I do not in fact like this.

    How is this 'twisting things'? Conlin's been backing this tunnel from the start – that's not at question. What's at question is why a politician who likes to talk sustainability is twisting himself into knots to support a totally unsustainable piece of infrastructure…

  • TranspoGuy

    Or, maybe it's an argument for building the tunnel and tearing down I-5.

  • jns

    Why aren't you posting as John Bailo any more?

  • sirkulat

    The DBT's fatal flaw is the “Mercer West” project. It CANNOT ably redirect traffic that now accesses SR99 in Lower Belltown.

    SR99 could be rebuilt below John, Thomas and Harrison Streets to reconnect the grid — without building the DBT. Entrance and exit to SR99 would be at Repukelican Street with the end result being the same grid restoration at a fraction of the cost and a better traffic pattern.

    It's the traffic pattern that condemns the DBT. How will 40,000+ vehicles be redirected from the short, straight, commercial route on Elliott to the DBT north portal? So far, WSDOT and SDOT, its minnions and sycophants refuse to consider, let alone answer this major question.

    I'm just asking the question: How is the traffic going to be redirected?

    No one should pretend Mercer Place is a suitable route, not SDOT, not WSDOT, no one. It's a narrow 2-lane road up a steep hill through a totally residential neighborhood. All route options are longer, with more turns and stoplights, hillclimbs and incur more impacts to residential areas and busy commercial centers.

    Can the current design for Alaskan Way handle as much traffic as expected? It can be arranged to better handle more traffic. But all the studies show the cut/cover Tunnelite produces the least traffic on Alaskan Way. And Tunnelite retains the main traffic pattern through Lower Belltown to Interbay and Ballard. Hmmm. Maybe the DOTs lied?

  • N8

    “Travel times on the SR 99 corridor through the central waterfront would take five to 10 minutes longer than the bypass scenarios and 10 to 15 minutes more than today.”

    Think of all the extra pollution from all those cars idling and get worse MPG in this option. Seem that if you want a more livable neighborhoods, you'd get the cars that only want to through the neighborhood out of the way and not idling at street lights.

  • N8

    First of all, the project is $2.8 billion, not 4.4. Second, it is a state highway, not a city or county road. Third, maybe they should build the light rail all the way to Everett and Tacoma first to give those cars that travel the farthest off of the road. My bet is that when it comes time to vote on taxes to extend light rail out of Seattle to Tacoma and Everett (who have been paying taxes for sound transit all along) the 'green' Seattleites will balk and not be so green anymore.

  • Mr. X

    Only the lanes are being widened – northbound traffic will still squeeze down to one lane to get on I-5, so it'll still be the same parking lot it is now.

  • Mr. X

    That said, the Spokane Street Viaduct rebuild is long overdue, and the new transit-only exit is a fine idea (as is adding a direct link to southbound SR 99)

  • Mr. X

    …and I think those figures are ridiculously optimistic. If current conditions are any indication, you'd probably add closer to 1/2 an hour (at least) to any trip through downtown by forcing people to use a new surface boulevard (with a bunch of stoplights) and/or existing arterial streets.

    Throw in the ferry traffic on a holiday weekend and/or a game at one of the stadia and those numbers get exponentially worse.

  • Mr. X

    For that matter, on a larger scale, we'd do a lot more to address climate change by raising CAFE mileage standards than we will by doubling the inconsequential number of people who commute to work by bike, but that doesn't really fit with “New Urbanist” dogma…..

  • Adam Bejan Parast

    I'm sorry, you have your facts wrong. The 2.8 figure is the state contribution and does not count city funds and costs to utility rate payers. The total cost is a little more than 4 billion. The state says 2.8 to make it seam like less money.

    http://www.orphanroad.com/blog/2009/02/gregoire…

    Light rail will go to Tacoma and Everett with ST3 but the thing is that the most productive place to put light rail is where density is, and that means Seattle.

  • Mr. Y

    actually 1 in 10… and forget the fearmongers… your life may not be worth a rips ass, but there are a lot of real people out there we do care about and the risk is not worth keeping it up.

  • Mr. X

    That same earthquake could also take down the old building I work and/or thousands of others like it, and I don't think they ought to be torn down over a “what if” either.

  • alexbroner

    That is not an apples-to-apples comparison since the 3.3 billion figure for the Surface transit option includes things like the 929 million seawall replacement which will still have to be done in either case but is not included in 2.8 billion dollar figure. The numbers on the WDOT site include the “moving forward” projects just like the I5/Surface/Transit option and the number comes out to 3.1 billion. Thus, if we look at them apples-to-apples then the surface transit option (with the seawall replacement and moving forward) costs 2.8 billion (2008 dollars) and the deep bore tunnel project (with the seawall replacement) costs 4 billion dollars (2010 dollars).

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    In Publicola style I will say Dan is wrong.

    Maybe Dan can tell us why the legislature that insisted on inserting the cost overrun provision would not put the same provision into a surface/disruption option?
    Frank “Choppaduct” Chopp has an opinion, and appears that he has a third idea.

    Would the tunnel proponents object to legislation that would build the Choppaduct and include a “Seattle area” cost overrun provision?
    You have a better chance of seeing that than any if the opinion Dan and McSandbag are assuming.

  • Mr. X

    …and if this were really about life safety, WSDOT wouldn't have jiggered the criteria to require that any retrofit had to keep the AWV usable (as opposed to standing) after a 500 year seismic event (let alone the much more likely scenario of another quake of Nisqually-like magnitude) – which is exactly what they did to put the kibosh on Vic Grey's proposal to do a safety retrofit for a fraction of the cost of any of the options now under consideration.

    BTW – I've been testifying against WSDOT proposals to turn the AWV into a toll tunnel for well over 15 years now, so I'm not exactly new to the debate.

  • Anc

    What is this viaduct you speak of? All I see is the LTD. Do Want!

  • alexbroner

    It seems that replacement of those pillars will have to be done either way, so I don't see how it cuts one way or the other.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I-5/Surface/metro bus option (metro would get money for bus hours, nothing supports the idea that Seattle would get light rail money) would get just as much legislative support for the transit part that the tunnel/transit plan got.

    Here is a tip, when comparing things, use similar criteria.

    Nothing the legislature has done supports the fantasy of the I-5/surface/metro bus option.

  • alexbroner

    Or you could take mass transit if we actually built it/funded sufficient service levels. Wait, we're spending our money on a deep bore expressway instead, nevermind.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker
  • alexbroner

    why can't we do both?

  • alexbroner

    Depending on what you include the number is different. Do you include the seawall replacement? Utility relocation? “Moving Forward” funds? When you hold these things constant the surface transit option costs about 1 billion dollars less than the tunnel.

  • alexbroner

    The I5 surface transit option includes more mass transit options and demand management features like changing the structure of downtown parking from long term to short term parking. Increased transit options and demand management policies can reduce the number of single occupancy vehicle trips taken.

    http://www.mrsc.org/Subjects/Transpo/TDM.aspx

  • alexbroner

    There is about a billion dollars of cost difference between the surface transit option (having trouble writing the word transit eh?). Assuming that the surface transit option still contained this sort of unprecedented cost overrun language and assuming that both project go over budget by equal amounts then the surface transit option would save the city 300 million dollars in avoided cost over-runs. That said, constructing the largest diameter deep bore tunnel ever built sounds like a recipe for far more than the usual cost overruns.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Maybe you should listen to Monday's council meeting and hear what WSDOT told the council.

    We would probably assume the same costs with any option, utilities attached to the viaduct have to move and Seattle pays for that.

    The problem with Dan and McGinn's argument is that they assume things that the state will not assume.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Having trouble writing the word Yes, eh?

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Btw, that 300 million gets inflated out of existence by the time the mayor could kill the current project, get new legislation, and start the contracting process.
    You do know that current bids are coming in lower than estimated because they are being bid now, not 2 years ago, and not two years from now.

  • answered again

    no you don't need one lane for shoulders. Aurora has no shoulders, Madinson has no shoulders, 3d has no shoulders 4th has no shoulders 5th has no shoulders roosevelt has no shoulders. and more lanes equals more flow when you're taking lanes that aren't used for flow and converting them to flow.

    Taking lanes that already exist and aren't used and putting them into service is changing from waste to utility; building new lanes at a cost of megabillions is mainly waste.

  • answered again

    Until people, not being idiots, change their conduct.

    For example, when we subsidize a megahighway boondoggle it allows someone living in shoreline to work in tukwila. they happily accept the highway subsidy and the 30 minute commute it produces. go to suirface transit, oh shit, the commute is now 60 minutes. guess what. they can give up that ridiculously dirt cheap rent in tukwila and pay a bit more for an office in shoreline. or they can move to tukwila. the point is, projections of 60 minute travel time are a lie as they assume people don't change. and more: if we don't cost travel, if we subsidize it wildly, producing lots of 50 mile commutes, we're subisdizing more traffic and more sprawl and more congestion and more delays in commuting etc.

  • answered again again

    baloney dude.
    1. you don't need shoulders and they aren't required on 45 mph roads. there are no shoulders on 5th, roosevelt, 15th, madison, etc. etc. etc. How many times does the point have to be made? Lower the speed limit from 60 to 45 and presto! no shoulders required, or needed. BTW with the spped limit at 60 the congetion lowers the travel time so that in peak period cars are going LESS THAN 45 ANYWAY.

    2. your argument that I 5 would fall down if there were more cars on it is simply not believable.

    3. i said put transit on the express lanes. Gee, I hope the bus weight isn't too much.

    See, this is what passes for debate…a few random thoughts are expressed to hold up progress, despite the fact they're …wrong. I will say it again: shoulders are not required on many streets and avenues; there is unused flow through put capacity on I 5; it can be used; that's how you get a few lanes more capacity thru the middle of seattle, without the megabillions of digging dirt to put 4 lanes under ground (woo hoo! at 60 mph instead of 45 you save ONE MINUTE getting thru downtown, woo hoo!); nothing more needs be said in answer to the question of how do you use I 5 to get more capacity.

  • Gomez

    Your comment contains one fact: The fact that you didn't like my comment.

    The rest needs concrete, objective evidence to carry any weight.

  • Gomez

    The key to the success of any surface/transit plan is the unchecked availability of I-5 as an alternate corridor, so yeah it actually does matter. If I-5 has to close for any extended period, that blows ups the feasibility of the surface/transit plan.

  • Gomez

    re #2: Ahem. Nobody ever believed this would happen either.

    This collapse was caused by added weight from construction equipment placed upon the bridge while taking on reduced traffic. The structural integrity of older bridges is contingent on setting limits as to how much weight they take on: That's why there's a weight limit for the viaduct and several other roadways.

    C+ troll, as you receive credit for interjecting a handful of semi-reasoned arguments in an attempt to appear you were actually trying to discuss the topic, but your cutdowns coupled with the lack of an actual name or familiar handle shows you have no interest in anything other than screwing up an otherwise useful discussion.

  • Gomez

    Why… yes! How did you….?

  • Dan Bertolet

    Oh dear Mr. Baker, have you not yet caught on to the fact that I am NEVER, EVER WRONG!

    My take (though I could be wrong) is that the cost overrun provision came as a result of the tunnel being perceived as a big luxurious gift from the State to spoiled, elitist, arrogant Seattle, and all those legislators who felt the need to show their constituencies that they aren't soft on Seattle thought the cost overrun provision would be a nice way to create that illusion. Chopp is a deal maker and maybe he was also still mad about nobody taking the Choppaduct seriously.

    The surface option would not be perceived as such an objectionable gift to Seattle as the tunnel, because most would see it was the bare minimum solution, i.e. the State at least has to put a new road there, right? Furthermore, lots of people think it wouldn't work anyway (gridlock!) and so that would mean they were really sticking it to Seattle. All of which says to me that if it isn't a tunnel there's a lot less motivation to invoke a cost overrun provision.

  • Soapboxin'

    This is in response to your comment above. In this economy, are you really saying that someone who lives in Shoreline should turn down a job in Tukwila because the commute will cause congestion and contribute to global warming??? What if, say, my partner works in Shoreline and bikes to work? What if I really need that job??? Your heart may be in the right place, but you need to get a grip on reality. People with easy commutes are VERY fortunate. Life doesn't always work out that way.

  • dude

    Pot calls kettle what?

  • anotherneighborhoodactivist

    Spot on; retrofit was washed off the table from the get go.

  • anotherneighborhoodactivist

    No, you need to (get a grip on reality). The era of cheap energy is drawing to a close. if not this decade, then the next or the one after. It does not matter how much concrete we pour, that ridiculous global warming commute (yes, that's exactly what it is) is going to come to an end soon enough. Actually, not soon enough, IMO. Americans' ridiculous consumption of everything is going to end. Research peak oil, peak everything, limits to growth, carrying capacity, etc. Replacing the viaduct with an outrageously expensive, stupidly auto-centric tunnel cannot negate physical reality.

  • Gomez

    Dude, apparently… “dude”.

  • anotherneighborhoodactivist

    “Over the long term, the cities that wean themselves from car dependence will become the prosperous cities of the future,” is correct. I'll go further and say “Over the long term, the cities that learn how to function without cheap energy will become the prosperous cities of the future.” Global warming is not the only crisis caused by burning up all the petroleum. Not having cheap energy to support our growth-always-at-any-cost society is going to be another consequence. What do you think is going to replace the oil when it's gone? Coal? Trees? Solar? Do the research; nothing can sustain our current ridiculous level of resource consumption. Contraction is inevitable. Our choice: Do it gracefully, or do it ugly. Very ugly.

  • Selma

    You're right on this, and we do need to be clear that WSDOT is most certainly not in the business of building light rail lines. Until I see Sound Transit come on as a partner, I can't take the idea of I-5/Surface/Transit to mean anything other than a six-lane highway on the waterfront.

    Why in the world anyone thinks putting a highway on the waterfront is a good idea is beyond me, but here we are.

  • serial_catowner

    This proposed “largest tunnel ever” is about 4 feet larger than the current “largest tunnel ever”.

    Listening to the anti-tunnel people and their ominous statements, misleading statements, and, in the case of McGinn, outright lies, has slowly convinced me that environmentalism is being tarnished by this fixation.

    And that's a darn shame, because if the nation doesn't get environmental in about 15 years, it's curtains, lights out, the end of the road- for us, anyway.

    Think about your credibility. Look at it from the other guys side to see if you really understand what you're saying. Right now, the anti-tunnel people have very little credibility among those elected to represent us. Or just give it a rest for the sake of other important stuff.

  • NordicGal

    Agreement is required to do anything. There is not agreement to do the surface alternative. There won't ever be. We have enough experience to know that.

    So all this chatter about the surface option is really about doing nothing. Doing nothing will turn people away from the city because the risks are not acceptable. Building a great city is the most important thing we can do to sustain the environment.

    Seattle's potential to attract more jobs and people living downtown is enormously enhanced by agreement to move the tunnel forward. It is the best great city alternative. The best for the climate. It will give the waterfront back to the city and put cars in their place.

    Let's start planning what'll happen to the waterfront and get that done right, and quit this endless opposition to actually doing something to solve a big problem.

  • Soapboxin'

    Dude, how old are you? What kind of family responsibilities do you have? The truth is, if you lived in Chicagoland or another real city, a commute like Shoreline to Tukwila would be perfectly viable on public transportation. It's not viable here for 2 reasons, as far as I can see: 1) Seattle politicians screwed up royally in the past, and 2) the Seattle Process continues to prevent us from making ANY decision. Part of that is driven by idealists like yourself.
    -
    Obviously, these discussion boards reflect just a small slice of the analysis paralysis that has set in. Everyone is so polarized and terrified of the unwanted consequences of imperfect decisions that it's impossible to do anything.
    -
    I appreciate your concern for the environment, and your concerns for the future, but you won't get anywhere criticizing people for taking a job that requires a commute. We have bills to pay, kids to support, etc.
    -
    I live in a 1-car family and have a pretty modest lifestyle – no SUV's McMansion's, or Jet Ski's here. I share a lot of your values. So watch your fucking mouth when you go insulting tough choices that adults have to make in day-to-day real life. All of the 'realities' that you insist are imminent are actually your predictions for the future. I'm scared about the future too, but I still have to pay my bills this month.

  • sirkulat

    A 54' diameter bored tunnel beneath 132 downtown buildings is an ominous threat to be taken seriously, not dismissed lightly. Latest WSDOT drawings reveal the tunnel route is also beneath the AWV from Yesler Way south. During construction and thereafter, the buildings above the tunnel face severe damage from regular seismic reverberations and from catastrophic earthquake and major collisions.

    Mayor Mike was right to point out that the bored tunnel deal was done behind closed doors with the least amount of study process and public participation.

    SDOT designs for Mercer West call for creating a direct freight corridor from Elliott to I-5. The narrow, 2-lane, steep hillclimb Mercer Place segment is labelled TBD (to be determined?). In other words, SDOT plans to widen Mercer Place, informing residents of eminent domain property condemnation 'after' contracts are signed and the money is making its way into contractor pockets. Or more likely, SDOT will designate other, more circuitous routes from the north portal to Elliott, environmental impact determined later, too bad, suckers.

    All studies show the cut/cover Tunnelite offers the least traffic on Alaskan Way and little change to the existing access SR99 in Lower Belltown, the straight, shortest route with the least stoplights through a suitably commercial corridor. For real environmentalists, Tunnelite creates the least environmental impact.

  • Soapboxin'

    This is the same gloom and doom that McGinn preaches from his pulpit. A lot of it – especially the criticism of growth at any cost – is quite valid.
    -
    I'd personally like to think that this Great Recession is acting as a wake-up call to everyone, and that a new economic model – one built upon a foundation of sustainability rather than consumerism, growth, and exploitation, is on the horizon. But that just doesn't seem likely at present. The best decisions right now seem to come from China's centralized, authoritarian government. When ideas have to battle it out in the public arena, they inevitably get very watered down. Look at what has happened to Obama. If you know how to replicate Copenhagen in other places, please share the magic secret with the rest of us.
    -
    The fact is that, right here and right now, we do need to expect less from our government and we do need to continue toning down our lifestyles.
    -
    Which brings me back to McGinn's tone and the style vs. substance issue. It's like hearing Jimmy Carter's “Malaise” speech over and over and over again. It's just not good… (wait for it) …leadership.
    -
    The Bearded Portly Dude needs to SELL Walk, Bike, Ride to the city. If that's not his personal strong-suit, he needs to ask for help. He needs to cultivate allies. All he's doing now is telling us that the economy isn't getting better anytime soon, the seawall is going to crumble into Elliott Bay, and our lifestyle is forever doomed. And, apparently, it makes him feel all self-righteous and high and mighty. Look at me! I got elected Mayor, and now I get to tell everyone how dumb they are and they have to listen to me…
    -
    I don't like it.

  • N8

    Can you name modern state highways that don't have shoulders?

  • Gomez

    Indeed. You're not going to get people away from fossil fuels by eliminating the highway. You're going to do it by going to the source, the people, and working to change their lifestyles for the better on the ground level. Little gets socioculturally accomplished with a top-down approach.

  • anotherneighborhoodactivist

    Response to Soapboxin's response: Yes, and swearing at me is a sure way to encourage intelligent blogosphere discourse. My comment was more generic than personal (“We all need to get a grip on reality.”) Make whatever personal choices you feel you must. We're all in the world together, and we (i.e., our children/grandchildren) are going to suffer the consequences of our actions together. There is an ethical dimension to our current life style choices. Excuse me for pointing it out.

    I am not attacking you personally for your global warming commute, just pointing out what it is. If you'll go back through the posts on this and similar pages you'll rarely find anyone noting that peak oil is upon us, carrying capacity is being exceeded, cheap energy is ending soon, etc. Your defensiveness indicates an awareness of those truths. But even people who like you profess to know these facts hide from the consequences and pretend they have to keep on the same non-sustainable path due to “family responsibilities.” There's always a good reason; “the road to Hell…” and all that.

    By the way, I'm probably older than you. And I've lived in NYC & L.A. You are only partly correct that transit problems around here are the result of “politicians screwing up.” When they had the chance, the voters rejected building transit in the late 60s/70s (google “forward thrust seattle”). And “the Seattle Process” is broken because it is not really a process; it's a structure used by those in power to prevent a decision making process reflective of the desires of the voters based on being given ALL the facts, costs, and consequences.

  • N8

    And that risk is much higher because you spend more time in the building than on the AWV.

  • N8

    Totally agree with you. Agreement is key and unfortunately, the mayor's philosophy on governance and leadership is all wrong. McGinn thinks that a slight majority in one vote provides him some king of totalitarian leadership on everything. Nothing turns off non-greenies as someone telling them that they must walk, bike or ride a bus everywhere.

  • Gomez

    Who is to say that in 20-30 years we aren't using a different, cleaner, more efficient fuel source for our SOV's?

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Pretty weak on the riposte there, bud. The issue was your assertion that Conlin's words were taken out of context.

    Example?

  • anotherneighborhoodactivist

    Re McGinn: Unfortunately, I think your analysis is accurate.

    One significant disagreement: “The best decisions right now seem to come from China's centralized, authoritarian government.” You mean like building lots more coal plants? Or allowing if not facilitating a transition to an oil-based automobile culture? Or engaging in global imperialism to obtain that oil and other resources?

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Um… Actually, JNS's principal assertion, that Conlin has backed the tunnel for years is supported by publicly available documents.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    I think you just excused yourself from being a productive contributor to public infrastructure policy.

  • Soapboxin'

    Yeah, I didn't self-edit as much as I would have liked this AM. No hard feelings, eh? I think you see my point, but it's could've been put better.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    How do we 'change lifestyles' from auto-dependency when our rare choices over mega-infrastructure lock us into auto-dependency?

  • Soapboxin'

    Are you Wells' new avatar, or are you just one of his disciples? The Mayor Mike and the cut/cover Tunnelite talk give you away.

  • Mr. X

    Because blind acceptance of development agenda-based fearmongering rather than realistic assessments of likely risk (and actual expense) is EXACTLY how we should run our infrastructure policy. Right-O!

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Except that you are wrong about the tunnel. ;)

    In my view, the tunnel option has “conventional-wisdom” advantages, it is easier to explain, but that doesn't make it the right choice.

    The surface/transit option has a learning curve to it. It is a tougher sell and it never had the institutional resources behind it to properly make the case to the public. It has always been the clever, little sister in the big brothers' argument over the tunnel or aerial replacement to the viaduct.

    Last night I attended the wake for the South Park bridge. We have entered the era where we can't take it for granted that we will all have the money for personal wheels and fuel, nor that our public treasuries will have the funds to repair and replace our public infrastructure. We have to make the right choices for new times and not pretend that 20th century conventions offer a future for our region.

  • Gomez

    By getting out of your Sim City mindset of believing that changes can only be made through top-down manipulation of city grids, taxes and regs.

  • Gomez

    He also has concrete reasons for supporting the tunnel, reasons backed up by a host of engineers and objective research.

    In supporting the surface/yadayada option you're asking him to show mostly blind faith in an untested alternative held up by a latticework of thin contingencies (including the availability of an I-5 corridor that others below have agreed will need to eventually be shut down and replaced, as well as a sea change towards a developing, somewhat limited and flawed transit system) and an anticipated yet unprecedent sociocultural and socioeconomic sea change.

  • Soapboxin'

    Can't/won't disagree with anything you said. I was a hard sell on surface/transit, but I eventually came around. And we're getting the tunnel for the reasons you outlined. That being said, let's just do it and move on. All of this arguing becomes dissonance. We don't trust anyone's “facts” or “truth.” Right now, I believe that stalling and doing nothing is a worse choice than the tunnel.

  • Mr. X

    Yup, all 80,000+ of those West Seattle folks are gonna up and move closer to where you think they should (as will everyone else west of the SR 99 Corridor).

    The City will of course also rescind all of the building permits it has been handing out in W.Seattle like Christmas candy based on the existence of the AWV and the access it provides to those properties, too.

  • sirkulat

    I've been both Wells and Sirkulat for years. As for disciples, lately I've noticed more posters in their own words express the same concerns. Maybe I'm getting through to some people, but most either thoughtlessly support the DBT or oppose it for the wrong reasons.

    I read your post above that begins with “the same gloom and doom McGinn preaches” to get a feel for your personal stance and conclude that you're selling the environmental community short. Maybe you're a know-nothing Naderite? Tunnelite creates the least environmental impact and is the only option that offers a “car-free” gardened walkway between Steinbrueck Park to the Waterfront.

    Tunnelite was my first choice in the Summer of 2001 while WSDOT wasted years supposedly studying 'prohibitively' expensive tunnel options. WSDOT directors only intended to build an elevated replacement viaduct until its March 2007 voter rejection. Another year passed before they finished vetting Tunnelite, meaning it wasn't ready for public in 2007. WSDOT still exaggerates construction disruption and downplays its numerous advantages. I figure Seattle business interests have more concern for short term profits and pulled the plug on Tunnelite. Maybe they think Jesus is coming back in 2012 and will wave his magic jesus wand and fix everything?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Well, I suppose it's time to kick it up a notch, eh?

    Why does our City Council endorse all of downtown collapsing into a tunnel-caused sinkhole?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    “Little gets socioculturally accomplished with a top-down approach.”

    Set up barriers that you have to pay $2 per trip to enter downtown in SOV's ala how Central London does it, and tell me that people won't start taking mass transit.

  • N8

    The purpose of all this discussion is because of the need to fix/tear down the current viaduct, and it's not like the tunnel option is the end of the world, it's a workable compromise solution that came about really when the cut and cover tunnel option was eliminated.

    It might not be the best option, but it is the option that got a plurality of support and money to move one. Soapboxin' put it best, “stalling and doing nothing is a worse choice than the tunnel.”

  • cyn cyn cynical

    Ok. Right now Seattle is only responsible for $950M right? So if we go with surface option, don't get state funds, then it appears Seattle is on hook for $1.7B.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Cut and cover is the new “cut and run”, amirite?

  • keep cars separate

    Dear Mr. X,
    We need public transit, bike, pedestrian and car routes – and keep (or get!) Seattle moving – or we will become a completely disfunctional city and our economy will collapse. Sometimes you have to work where you can find a job. I used to work in Tukwila & wished every day my employers would move the office – but guess what? they didn't. If you think it's realistic that everyone lives exactly where they work (including spouses – who would have to find jobs in the same neighborhood in order to live together) I think YOU deserve to live someplace like Tukwila, near my old office, where the thieves & prostitutes did more business than my company.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    So how is your tunnel advocacy not also a symptom of a Sim City mindset?

  • alexbroner

    That is a straw-man argument. A hypothetic deal in which Seattle does the surface transit option might work out something like this: Seattle does the I5/Surface/Transit option, in part with the state's money and the state saves 1 billion dollars.

  • keep cars separate

    Thank You!
    I only voted for the current mayor after he promised not to block the tunnel. Time is ticking! I understand that alternate transportation is important – mass transit can use the tunnel too. Maybe some of the costs can be covered by development of freed-up land. Moving forward is good!

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Or, start paying $6/gallon for gasoline and tell me you won't WISH you could take mass transit.

  • alexbroner

    The tunnel is the option that involves stalling, the surface transit option is the faster option to complete, even now. The Tunnel won't be completed until 2016! (unless it gets delayed further)

  • alexbroner

    The problem with the tunnel is that it's a bad option if we assume everything goes right. If everything goes right the largest diameter deep bore tunnel ever dug comes in on budget, costing a mere 1 billion dollars over the surface/transit option. If everything goes right we have only moderate increases in sea hight and decreases in snow melt, worsening storms etc, all caused by our carbon emissions. On the downside, the largest diameter deep bore tunnel ever dug goes over budget and behind schedule. On the downside delaying until 2016 or beyond means an earthquake takes down the viaduct while people are on it. On the downside global warming could follow one of the more severe scenarios scientists have suggested is possible and we see global dislocations caused by shifting crop zones, flooding/salinity, and the accompanying political unrest.

    But wait, I forgot, people should be allowed to drive by themselves without any regard for the city's economy or the environment or the other 6 billion or so people in the world. Never-mind, carry on.

  • joshuadf

    BTW Tacoma and Everett both have a lot of Soundtransit bus and Sounder service today.

  • alexbroner

    The city council is more willing to trust the tunnel engineers than they are willing to trust the traffic engineers. The traffic engineers tell them that the surface transit option will handle the required number of trips but the city council ignores them. The tunnel engineers swear that everything will be ok and the city council members choose to believe them. Why is this? The answer is obvious: the city council knows that even if the surface transit option works as promised, some people will still be inconvenienced a bit and have to change their habits. The tunnel at least appears to provide the most continuity from the status quo. People can still zip past downtown in their cars! Nirvana! Much of the perceived environmentalism of the various councilmembers is exactly that, perception. When the chips are down the city council has transportation views only slightly updated from the 1950s.

  • joshuadf

    But in the end people will realize spending a few extra minutes on their commute really isn't that bad when they see all of the benefits that they get out of it. As long as my zipcar bill is lower than my cellphone bill, I'm not going to waste $15 a day paying highway tolls/parking/gas/insurance/maintenance to commute by car.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    American exceptionalism for the win, baby.

  • joshuadf

    Actually the $20 MVET passed the legislature but Gregoire vetoed it
    http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/05/20/metro-…

    Supposedly the Tunnel+Transit Coalition “supports added transit as a vital part of the Tunnel+Transit plan and encourages decision makers to provide adequate funding.”
    http://tunnelplustransit.com/what-is-the-t-t-so…

  • Ziggity

    But he doesn't say that, does he? I think that's the takeaway of this is that if he wants to make it about safety, waterfront views, etc. that's fine, but it doesn't do enough to distinguish from the surface transit option.

    Rather, it makes it seem like he's cherry-picking evidence. Cary Moon's Waterfront group provided lots of evidence from traffic engineers, case studies, and other sources that Conlin and others have chosen not to refute. Instead they continually cite the sources that agree with the decision they've already made.

  • Gomez

    Speaking of pot kettle black… all of Cary's sources were handpicked in order to build evidence that unanimously agreed with their plan, regardless of the actual credibility of said sources or the depth of their research.

    DOT's engineers have a stated job to do, and they face severe career-ending repercussions if that job doesn't get done. Cary Moon and her fringe supporters have relatively little to nothing to lose because they're on the outside looking in.

  • Gomez

    Because I'm not pretending that dozens of state-employed civil engineers don't know what they're doing?

  • Gomez

    Londoners gravitate to mass transit because the commute is one of the world's most miserable commutes, with or without pay-entry barriers. Their regional street grid is horribly designed.

  • Mr. X

    Surface streets are not the same as limited access freeways. There are no driveways or parking lots on I-5, but there are on all of the streets you cite.

    Apple, meet orange…..

  • morning

    Any idea how much a $20 MVET would raise? County-wide about $25M. Not buying much transit with that.

  • Ziggity

    I never said Moon wasn't working without an agenda, but she's not an elected official. Special interests have special interests, but Conlin should be held to a higher standard.

    And as much as you trust WSDOT, I think you do yourself a disservice if you think they're not at least somewhat beholden to electeds at the end of the day. Yes they have ethical obligations, but they're just as capable of changing their tune given the way the political wind blows.

    I'm amazed at how you marginalize people who disagree with you. It's a damn echo chamber in here.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    The fact remains that they toll entry onto central London streets to get people out of their cars. It's pointless American car rah-rah to assume in our geographically limited area that we won't have to do the same thing as our population grows (which it has on a consistent basis).

  • joshuadf

    Metro's budget deficit will be about $24m a year after the “low-impact” cuts:
    http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/21/editor…

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Mr. Bertolet,
    I see nothing from Frank Chopp that supports your assumption, I respectfully disagree.

    I do not see the rest of the state encouraging a surface option. The House floor debate I watched live did not present a welcoming atmosphere for Seattle's wants. It was ugly. I am convinced that anything other then what is going on now, or another viaduct, will be picked up with the same feelings and opinions the surrounded the debate.
    They hate us, others would just assume redistribute that money throughout the state or you get the “why isn't another viaduct good enough” for Seattle talk.

    They were already lamenting having to return to the subject to pass funding for the mass transit portion they dropped last year. There were arguments against that and it wasn't even part of the legislation.

    It might do tunnel opponents some good to view the tvw archive to see the “love”. Many people were angry that the project was delayed as long as it has, holding that gas tax money away from everybody else.

  • Donolectic

    2 billion of those people are in one country and they all seem to want to drive Buicks nowadays as their standard of living rises.

  • Mr. X

    I think “Keep Cars Separate” missed my point (and what I thought was pretty obvious sarcasm) entirely.

  • Mr. X

    If we were talking about new dedicated bike routes instead of reducing the capacity of our already congested arterial streets I could perhaps get behind that more – but rather than actually making biking easier, McGinn and the Urban Design Cult seem more bent on making life for the 67% of Seattle residents who drive to work harder. Fail.

  • Mr. X

    London has a massive and mature transit system, which we are decades away from achieving.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    “Because I'm not pretending that dozens of state-employed civil engineers don't know what they're doing?” ~ Gomez

    A) This is a non sequitur in reply to my question: “So how is your tunnel advocacy not also a symptom of a Sim City mindset?”

    You seem to be saying that 'Sim City', ie “top-down” thinking, is okay when traffic engineers are playing. So, I guess you're abandoning your “socio-cultural”, bottom-up prescription from the prior post. 1 – 1 = 0 = The value of this method of argumentation.

    B) Why on earth wouldn't we bring some skepticism to the analyses of public traffic engineers? Their institutions rest on decades of marriage to the highway construction industries. The social costs of their erroneous assumptions are well-documented. Anybody here missing the RH Thompson Expressway? How about the elevated ring around downtown? (Stopped by efforts to save Pioneer Square and the Pike Place Market.)

    No, history is on the side of the skeptics.

    C) Again and again, when your urban design arguments fail, you hit the escape button of saying, “In 20 – 30 years time, we'll probably have a different fuel source for our one-passenger vehicles.” 1980 wasn't so long ago. How much has changed in the power-sourcing of automobiles since then? Where is the credible evidence that the auto-industry and fuel infrastructure is about to make a revolutionary transformation?

    As opposed to offering informed, rational argument, your practice seems to be based in a continually improvised chain of contrarian nonsense and wishful thinking that just happens to remain firmly aligned to automobile dependent interests and reactionary politics.

    [Unfollow]

  • alexbroner

    I feel badly for the “rather than” in your statement below because it has to do so much work. It seems to me that there is finite public space and public money and that there are tradeoffs for each. McGinn ran on a platform of improving walking, biking, and transit and now that he won that's what he's working on. The I5 surface transit option was not created by McGinn but rather by the experts working for the two DOT's. It relies on the push/pull principle of transportation options. It takes away a certain kind of road space while improving other kinds and improving transit. Public policy is about tradeoffs and the surface transit option makes transit riders lives easier by providing more trips. People will not get out of their cars if they are not given options and we can't fund other options if we're spending the money on keeping people in their cars.

  • alexbroner

    We very well might. In this case we will have averted some of the effects of global warming and kept the thousands of road accident deaths and injuries, the high obesity levels, habitat loss due to sprawl, and the general inequity of our transportation system.

  • alexbroner

    It should be clear to those who have been paying attention that “it's been decided” is not a very strong argument, both on the merits and especially given how many times prominent tunnel backers (the previous mayor and the governor in particular) have reversed the course of public policy decisions to suit themselves.

    It was decided to build the monorail. Then it was It was decided to kill the monorail. It was decided to create a stakeholder committee to provide their recommendations on the viaduct replacement. It then was decided to ignore those recommendations. It was decided to take down the viaduct in 2012. Now it's 2016. It was decided to reduce VMT and carbon emissions. Then it was decided to spend money in order to maintain existing VMT and carbon emissions. It was decided to fund transit as part of the tunnel project. Then it was decided not to fund transit. At every stage of this process the decision makers involved have walked back things that had “been decided”. It's hard to take the “it's been decided, lets just do something” argument seriously given this sordid history.

  • Soapboxin'

    I don't buy this argument. It sounds like a rationalization. This is a modern 'democracy.' You are on the losing side in a public policy decision. Why is it so hard to just accept this fact and move on? Take a look at Republicans on the health care reform issue, because that's who you (the anti-tunnel whiners, not you personally) are right now.

  • Gomez

    Breaking ground coupled with an agreement between the council and State is a pretty strong argument that it's been decided.

    Ground was never broken on the monorail. Hell, everyone involved barely agreed on a plan. I'm not even sure we got a timetable for delivery with that.

    Quit making direct comparisons to the tunnel and Green Line. They both had very distinctly different circumstances.

  • Gomez

    I have never seen a post that used so much text and yet added so little to the discussion. Can anyone find an actual fact in the above post? Please show you work.

  • "kumbaya" critic

    don't be silly. all he's doing is what he said he would do, and all he's doing is asking questions.

    and btw this focus on agreement is a seattle sickness …..usually, in politics, there's disagreement without the narcissistic need of one side to have total agreement from everyone.

  • "kumbaya" singer

    oh my, we can't have dissonance, it hurts my ears!

    NO, instesad McGinn should violate his promises he made to get elected so we can all sing kumbaya.

  • "kumbaya" critic

    how is asking questions about who will pay stalling?

    there is not one single thing mcginn has the power to do to stop this tunnel.

    so why do tunnel proponents freak out if he's not on board, or if 10, 26 or 39 or 51% of seattle is not on board, whatever?

    go ahead and build your damn tunnel. it's only your utter embarassment at not being able to answer the question of who pays for overruns that makes you guys freak out and attack mcginn for asking questions.

    it's a bit narcissistic, frankly, this desperate need to have everyone agree with tunnel proponents' views.

  • "kumbaya" critic

    how is mcginn blocking the tunnel?

    he's asking questions.

    what is this silly need for tunnel proponents to not hear criticism or questions?

    are you guys too insecure to build it, while those questions are hanging out there?

  • alexbroner

    The problem with the Republican's and healthcare reform is that they don't have an alternative program that comes anywhere close to addressing the issues the health reform bill tries to deal with. If they did then they would be justified in trying to switch to their proposal.

    Unfortunately “we the tunnel supporters have more political power” is not much of an argument on the merits. The point of political debate is to shift political power either by shifting the opinions of public officials or replacing them. Look at the anti-panhandling legislation. That also was a done deal until 4 city council members and the mayor blocked it. That happened because advocates of both sides kept making their case strongly until the last minute.

    In this case we have one solution (the tunnel) that involves significant delay, risk, and cost and another solution (the surface transit option) that is faster, less risky, cheaper and achieves significant policy objectives that even tunnel supporters say are important like reducing VMT and greenhouse gas emissions. The game isn't over yet because the tunnel hasn't been dug. One day we might look back on this like we do now on the RH Thompson expressway and think “I'm glad that people stood up against that!”

  • "kumbaya" critic

    like debating with right wingers, this logical left brained approach just doesn't seem to work. suggest you try a right brained approach of just ridiculing the auto loving unpatriotic tunnel building planet destroying lying morons who go around saying (a) there will be no overruns, and (b) we insist seattle pay for overruns (because we're not changing that law) (c) on the other hand that law is unenforceable, even though kastama dn clibborn say the opposite and we won't amend the law to remove that provision and (d) it's mcginn's fault for blocking the tunnel because he's asking questions and the very existence of those questions hanging out in the airspace above seattle prevents us from moving forward on the tunnel, waaaaaaaaa…..

  • alexbroner

    Has ground been broken on the tunnel? When did this happen? I thought they were still putting the contract out to bid…

  • "kumbaya koolaid" critic

    To the contrary, being on the 9-0 side of a public policy vote does not rewquire that one shut up and be silent, what are you some kind of fascist?

    BTW the guy who won the mayor's race ran on the tunnel issue, remember, and Seattle has never voted for the tunnel.

    Your demand that everyone achieve consensus is neurotic.

    Seriously, it's a huge personality disorder.

    Why can't you accept the fact not all people will agree with you. Go build the damn thing, but stop whining about the fact there are many people who disagree with you.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Good examples.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    A) Is a plain reading of your text. B) & C) are supported by examples.

  • Soapboxin'

    You are exactly right. I am indeed a neurotic fascist. I am a big whiner. I do insist that everyone should agree with me. It is a huge personality disorder, one that takes up my whole living room. I do want you to shut up and be silent. How did you ever get to be so smart and insightful? Please tell me more.

  • Soapboxin'

    Alex, I'm torn. Half of me wants to be nice and respectful, while the other half wants to make a snarky comment. I guess I'll just wish you the best of luck with your efforts.

  • alexbroner

    I've had to struggle with this for all 117 comments (and counting) I've made. Oh the urge to snark is strong!

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Ground has not been broken on the tunnel. The drilling machines don't even exist yet.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    The constant freak out by people who claim to be in power about any hard tunnel questions indicates that they themselves know all too well how fragile and tenuous their plans still are.

    Remember, we've still yet to even see the inevitable lawsuits hit.

  • Disappointed transit rider

    “he Bearded Portly Dude needs to SELL Walk, Bike, Ride to the city. If that's not his personal strong-suit, he needs to ask for help. He needs to cultivate allies… And, apparently, it makes him feel all self-righteous and high and mighty. Look at me! I got elected Mayor, and now I get to tell everyone how dumb they are and they have to listen to me…”

    Ouch. True and painful.

  • Gomez

    Both of you are right. This never actually happened. The media just makes stuff up, and you don't. Right.

  • Gomez

    If you mean examples of your imagination fabricating a deluded vision of reality, you are correct!

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Ha! You LOL'd me. That's a fairly worthwhile outcome of a comment tussle. Thank you!

  • Johns

    Mmm…no transit agencies have any plans to use the tunnel. At all.