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Transportation Committee Gets an Earful on Nickerson “Road Diet”

This was originally posted yesterday.

The proposed Nickerson “road diet” (reducing the street, which currently has four lanes of traffic, to two traffic lanes, adding a turn lane, and adding one bike lane and one sharrow) was the contentious focal point of this morning’s Seattle City Council transportation committee meeting.

The committee heard testimony from state legislators,  freight and business interests, bicycle and pedestrian advocates, and more than a dozen citizens both for and against restriping Nickerson.

Studies of similar road diets, like the one on Stone Way, showed that they improve bike and pedestrian safety while maintaining road capacity.

Three representatives from the 36th District, where the road diet would be located, urged the council to delay work on Nickerson to do further analysis and to take a broader look at traffic flow and construction projects in the city.

Rep. Mary-Lou Dickerson expressed concern about the potential for heavy traffic on Nickerson once the downtown deep-bore tunnel opens. And she questioned whether Nickerson is as dangerous as road-diet proponents have claimed.

“I don’t think the data actually validates the safety issue to take a step of this magnitude,” she said. “Looking at the city’s data, I see that there were four pedestrian and bicycle accidents in the last three years.”

State Rep. Reuven Carlyle said the Nickerson project highlights larger “systems” questions about Seattle’s roadways. “Is the policy goal to have an aggressive multi-modal approach on all of Seattle’s major arterials or do some get left to funnel motorized traffic?” He said the “needs of freight and industry must to be accommodated” regardless of the broader plan

Opponents of the road diet—including Dave Gering of the Manufacturing Industrial Council, Paula Cassidy of the Wild Salmon Seafood Company, Jan Koslowski of Ocean Beauty Seafood, and Eugene Wasserman of the North Seattle Industrial Association—pointed to the new Ship Canal multi-use path just north of Nickerson as evidence that bike lanes are unnecessary.

Supporters countered that the path doesn’t serve commuters, a point that Sen.Jeanne Kohl-Wells brought up in her testimony. “I don’t believe that the bicycle path along the canal is conducive to commuters. It is more recreational.”

Kohl-Wells also highlighted another point that advocates have made repeatedly: at an estimated $200,000 to complete, the road diet is relatively cheap.

“The Nickerson road diet will be relatively inexpensive and it can be reversed pretty easily,” she said. “That gives me comfort in living with the project.”

However, Kohl-Wells, like her fellow legislators, urged the council to study the road diet’s potential impacts before restriping Nickerson. The Washington State Department of Transportation will release a traffic analysis of Nickerson in September.

Supporters of the road diet, including Cascade Bicycle Club’s David Hiller, the Seattle Bicycle Advisory Board’s Matthew Crane, and Seattle Likes Bikes’ Michael Snyder, argued that the road diet would increase pedestrian and bicycle safety while maintaining roadway capacity.

Feet First director Lisa Quinn said, “This is not about pitting walking, biking, and freight against each other. It’s about getting drivers in single occupancy vehicles out of their cars.” Quinn argued that SOVs are the primary cause of congestion and fewer cars on the road would increase freight mobility more than bike lanes will reduce it.




  • morning

    It’s about getting drivers in single occupancy vehicles out of their cars.” .

    Well there you have it. Not safety, not economic development, not density, not all the bs that has been put out – but rather we hate cars, period.

  • morning

    It’s about getting drivers in single occupancy vehicles out of their cars.” .

    Well there you have it. Not safety, not economic development, not density, not all the bs that has been put out – but rather we hate cars, period.

  • mike

    can you even read? she didn't say she hated cars. and even if she did, her voice doesn't represent everyone for the diet.

    frankly, as someone who has to deal with this traffic on a daily basis, i'd rather the city solved this AND the fremont bridge issue (also a 'too many SOVs' problem). however, slower speeds (which still maintain capacity) will make the street more pedestrian friendly, and i'm sure that's something all the businesses that are struggling along nickerson could enjoy.

  • mike

    can you even read? she didn't say she hated cars. and even if she did, her voice doesn't represent everyone for the diet.

    frankly, as someone who has to deal with this traffic on a daily basis, i'd rather the city solved this AND the fremont bridge issue (also a 'too many SOVs' problem). however, slower speeds (which still maintain capacity) will make the street more pedestrian friendly, and i'm sure that's something all the businesses that are struggling along nickerson could enjoy.

  • giffy

    “It’s about getting drivers in single occupancy vehicles out of their cars”

    Sometimes I wish people would just keep their mouths shut. No one likes to be told what to do or felt like they are being forced by government to change their behavior. Yeah sure, thats a good goal and I am all for it, but you'll get a lot more support talking about pedestrian safety, calmer streets, and better access for bikes, then going all anti-car.

    But then we're stuck with the dumb ass name “road diet” for these things…

  • giffy

    “It’s about getting drivers in single occupancy vehicles out of their cars”

    Sometimes I wish people would just keep their mouths shut. No one likes to be told what to do or felt like they are being forced by government to change their behavior. Yeah sure, thats a good goal and I am all for it, but you'll get a lot more support talking about pedestrian safety, calmer streets, and better access for bikes then going all anti-car.

    But then we're stuck with the dumb ass name “road diet” for these things…

  • Tpn

    What's more is that cities that have every transportation amenity; bus, trams, trains, dedicated bike lanes, above and below ground, still have cars, traffic, a shortage of parking ( paid); even in europe where gas is about 8 bucks a gallon.

  • Tpn

    What's more is that cities that have every transportation amenity; bus, trams, trains, dedicated bike lanes, above and below ground, still have cars, traffic, a shortage of parking ( paid); even in europe where gas is about 8 bucks a gallon.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    I don't think single occupancy vehicles should be driving cars at all. How wasteful is that?

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    I don't think single occupancy vehicles should be driving cars at all. How wasteful is that?

  • N8

    Maybe Feet First made those comments in a closed meeting to a cyclist group and did not know she was being recorded. ;)

    They should just position this as providing a center turn lane to SOVs, providing me greater freedom cause now I can get around easier in my SOV and then people like me might be on board.

  • N8

    Maybe Feet First made those comments in a closed meeting to a cyclist group and did not know she was being recorded. ;)

    They should just position this as providing a center turn lane to SOVs, providing me greater freedom cause now I can get around easier in my SOV and then people like me might be on board.

  • C'mon

    Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief at what goes on in my fair city. This is, and always will be, about getting people out of cars. It's a noble thought, but highly misguided. It also ignores a huge detail: cars and trucks used for business or to move freight. Not everyone can work at a vegan coop, bike to work, and then go home to compost their sh*t. The lack of empathy is stunning.

    And the constant comparison to the Stone Way road diet is ludicrous. Stone was ALWAYS underutilized, while Nickerson is quite busy. There are multiple options in lieu of Stone that all go to the same place (Wallingford, Fremont Ave, 99) but give me another option – just one – instead of Nickerson? There is none. Period. The lack of east-west thoroughfares in this city is scary.

    But let's keep those evil single occupancy vehicles off the road – that's the HUGE problem. I call it a red herring and a scapegoat.

  • C'mon

    Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief at what goes on in my fair city. This is, and always will be, about getting people out of cars. It's a noble thought, but highly misguided. It also ignores a huge detail: cars and trucks used for business or to move freight. Not everyone can work at a vegan coop, bike to work, and then go home to compost their sh*t. The lack of empathy is stunning.

    And the constant comparison to the Stone Way road diet is ludicrous. Stone was ALWAYS underutilized, while Nickerson is quite busy. There are multiple options in lieu of Stone that all go to the same place (Wallingford, Fremont Ave, 99) but give me another option – just one – instead of Nickerson? There is none. Period. The lack of east-west thoroughfares in this city is scary.

    But let's keep those evil single occupancy vehicles off the road – that's the HUGE problem. I call it a red herring and a scapegoat.

  • Wasn't McGinn this time.

    Well someone got some allies in government, it seems.

  • Wasn't McGinn this time.

    Well someone got some allies in government, it seems.

  • John

    No, that comment was made to Council. The reality is that freight movement is most heavily impacted by SOVs, and designing roads that are safe for bicycles and pedestrians – hardly a high bar – isn't the freight community's biggest problem.

  • John

    No, that comment was made to Council. The reality is that freight movement is most heavily impacted by SOVs, and designing roads that are safe for bicycles and pedestrians – hardly a high bar – isn't the freight community's biggest problem.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    “It also ignores a huge detail: cars and trucks used for business or to move freight.” Not at all! The 2-lane plus a turning lane should be better for trucks.

    We're at an impasse here. On the left, we see that this will improve things for everyone including cars and won't increase traffic at all, and we wonder what the hell the right side is so concerned about. On the right, you hear comments like Lisa Quinn trying to force you out of your car and wonder why the left side is so crazy. You don't believe us for a second about traffic staying the same, since there are fewer lanes.

    This is yet another case where I wish we could hand off the problem to experts and walk away. There is a best choice here, but we'll never find it by brute force and fist fights (well it hasn't come to that yet). Of course I'd mostly be happy with that because I know my side is right, and I've seen the study comparing dozens of these roads before and after road diets – traffic flow does not go down.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    “It also ignores a huge detail: cars and trucks used for business or to move freight.” Not at all! The 2-lane plus a turning lane should be better for trucks.

    We're at an impasse here. On the left, we see that this will improve things for everyone including cars and won't increase traffic at all, and we wonder what the hell the right side is so concerned about. On the right, you hear comments like Lisa Quinn trying to force you out of your car and wonder why the left side is so crazy. You don't believe us for a second about traffic staying the same, since there are fewer lanes.

    This is yet another case where I wish we could hand off the problem to experts and walk away. There is a best choice here, but we'll never find it by brute force and fist fights (well it hasn't come to that yet). Of course I'd mostly be happy with that because I know my side is right, and I've seen the study comparing dozens of these roads before and after road diets – traffic flow does not go down.

  • Greg

    That “Spill Baby Spill” thing working out for you morning? Besides the pedestrian safety benefits (which is the main focus of the road diet whatever anyone says) the Feet First director is correct to point out Seattle's car problem.

    She's trying to save us all money. SOV drivers are heavily subsidized and encouraging them to use more efficient modes will be good for us all. (And I bike and drive Nickerson and think it would be better for both modes if it were more like Stone Way.)

  • Greg

    That “Spill Baby Spill” thing working out for you morning? Besides the pedestrian safety benefits (which is the main focus of the road diet whatever anyone says) the Feet First director is correct to point out Seattle's car problem.

    She's trying to save us all money. SOV drivers are heavily subsidized and encouraging them to use more efficient modes will be good for us all. (And I bike and drive Nickerson and think it would be better for both modes if it were more like Stone Way.)

  • morning

    Right, she didn't say she hated cars. But she did didn't she. I think it's great that a pro diet reporter reported this and that she actually told the truth.

    Please list the businesses that will be happy about this. The gas station/strip mall, frontier bonding …

  • morning

    Right, she didn't say she hated cars. But she did didn't she. I think it's great that a pro diet reporter reported this and that she actually told the truth.

    Please list the businesses that will be happy about this. The gas station/strip mall, frontier bonding …

  • morning

    know my side is right, and I've seen the study comparing dozens of these roads before and after road diets – traffic flow does not go down.. Really, then why would this get people out of cars? The Stone Way study was not done by neutral experts, it was done by a half-ass new urbanist consultant. The study was done with city traffic at ten year lows because of a giant recession.

    There's this study out there, done by a company with no axe to grind regarding Seattle, that says Seattle has the most congested streets in the country. The policies of SDOT are making Seattle congested.

    The turning lane is being eliminated from Dexter because, in part, trucks use it for unloading. People trying to do business in Seattle can see that first it's a road diet, then its a cycle track and then ?

  • morning

    know my side is right, and I've seen the study comparing dozens of these roads before and after road diets – traffic flow does not go down.. Really, then why would this get people out of cars? The Stone Way study was not done by neutral experts, it was done by a half-ass new urbanist consultant. The study was done with city traffic at ten year lows because of a giant recession.

    There's this study out there, done by a company with no axe to grind regarding Seattle, that says Seattle has the most congested streets in the country. The policies of SDOT are making Seattle congested.

    The turning lane is being eliminated from Dexter because, in part, trucks use it for unloading. People trying to do business in Seattle can see that first it's a road diet, then its a cycle track and then ?

  • forevergreen

    C'mon:

    As long as we keep distorting the market by radically subsidizing driving, we'll have people driving the 25% of trips they make that are less than a mile. I'm sure that sounds like progress to you, but it actually hurts consumers, communities and the economy.

    (Why is it that right wingers hate welfare, except when it's for cars or corporations, that's my question?)

  • forevergreen

    C'mon:

    As long as we keep distorting the market by radically subsidizing driving, we'll have people driving the 25% of trips they make that are less than a mile. I'm sure that sounds like progress to you, but it actually hurts consumers, communities and the economy.

    (Why is it that right wingers hate welfare, except when it's for cars or corporations, that's my question?)

  • John

    and the, what, 60+% trips that aren't work-related? Walkable communities are awfully hard to build when the majority of trips are subsidized to happen by car.

    Fundamentally, it comes down to the fact that sooner or later we're going to have to change, and we don't want to. And so we fight every single step of the way. And then we see the sky didn't fall. And then we go back and fight again. And then we change again. And again the sky didn't fall. Lather, rinse, repeat.

  • John

    and the, what, 60+% trips that aren't work-related? Walkable communities are awfully hard to build when the majority of trips are subsidized to happen by car.

    Fundamentally, it comes down to the fact that sooner or later we're going to have to change, and we don't want to. And so we fight every single step of the way. And then we see the sky didn't fall. And then we go back and fight again. And then we change again. And again the sky didn't fall. Lather, rinse, repeat.

  • tpn

    Yes, those with unpopular intentions should always couch their rhetoric and dumb down the language so that no effective opposition can crystalize. Sort of like, you know, military coups and what not.

  • tpn

    Yes, those with unpopular intentions should always couch their rhetoric and dumb down the language so that no effective opposition can crystalize. Sort of like, you know, military coups and what not.

  • morning

    I don't think single occupancy vehicles should be driving cars at all.

    If I ever see a single occupancy vehicle driving a car, I will be amazed.

  • morning

    I don't think single occupancy vehicles should be driving cars at all.

    If I ever see a single occupancy vehicle driving a car, I will be amazed.

  • morning

    Such a tired old bs argument. Yes, we pay taxes for roads and the government builds them but the vast, vast majority if not all of the money comes from car drivers and the car industry. Everyone uses the roads for those products trucked to them and most everyone uses the roads for something if they don't actually drive or ride in a car.

    The gas taxes (federal, state and local), license fees, sales taxes on vehicles, income taxes on all industry workers, property taxes for all related properties used for the industry, and many more I'm not thinking of at the moment.

    The more interesting question is whether there is an wealth transfer from people that don't use cars at all to the car driving nation and I very much doubt that occurs, in fact, car driver almost certainly subsidize roads for bicycles and pedestrians as well as subsidizing transit.

  • C'mon

    Sorry but that in no way responds to my point – a typical tactic used to obfuscate. Listen I'd love it for there to be fewer cars on the street and for us as a society to be less reliant on cars, but this ain't the way to do it.

    Regardless, as the region grows, traffic will (surprise!) continue to grow. The geography of Seattle is complex, and much more difficult to maneuver than other regions with expansive public and reliable mass transit. Because of this, it seems to that they should leave some – one even! – roads to be used specifically for *gasp* cars.

    Keep building bike paths. Keep investing in light rail/monorails/maglev/rocket ships/whatever to neighborhoods in the north/west parts of the city. But do not use this bullsh*t argument villifying cars as an excuse to strangle the ONLY east/west corridor around Queen Anne.

    Having lived at QA Ave and Nickerson for 7 years I know the challenges of the area. This is not how they should be addressed.

  • tvguide

    The problem with McGinn is that he has no balance in dealing with complex urban issues. This city isn't as two-dimensional as portrayed on Publicola.

  • MudBaby

    C'mon, I really like your comment.

    As a cyclist, I definitely support the creation of safer options for cyclists and pedestrians. However, I oppose this project. I find it unconscionable that many people support this cosmetic reconfiguration of Nickerson instead of pushing for a much more effective solution: completion of the “missing link(s)” in the bike/pedestrian trail along the south side of the Ship Canal, and extension of the trail under 15th Avenue to connect it with Interbay and Magnolia.

    Another solution would be for SDOT to coordinate with SPD to enforce the 30 MPH speed limit on Nickerson. But wait! Maybe that would be too logical…

    The Stone Way sharerows are a joke. They do squat to improve cyclist safety compared to what could have been accomplished by eliminating parking on both sides of Stoneway to create dedicated bike lanes. Another example SDOT's boneheaded approach to implementing bike safety can be seen along the BGT “missing link” along Shilshole Avenue where SDOT stolidly refuses to pave the road shoulders AND lets cars park on them instead of paving them as an interim safety measure until it finally gets its act together to complete the bike trail at this location.

    Finally, I am outraged that SDOT spent $55,000,000 on the SLUT and has $300,000,000 to burn on beautification of 6 blocks of Mercer Street, but can't manage to fund construction of the Bike Plan, including fixing the above-mentioned “missing links.” Instead if tries to pacify cyclists and pedestrians by foisting off on us this totally lame “road diet.”

  • Gomez

    Dickerson's not paying attention if she thinks traffic's going to end up on Nickerson if the tunnel construction impacts corridor traffic. Nickerson is not a functional arterial alternative for the major arterials affected. I mean… has she looked at a city map lately?

    At least Carlyle's concerns, while vague, seemed more practical. And Kohl-Welles made an astute point in noting the pointlessness of the south Canal bicycle path. Building that little non-trail was a great use of money… NOT.

    And for all the myopic lack of perspective that I think cycling activists tend to have, Quinn does make a great point about how freight advocates are missing the point of getting SOV drivers out of their cars. However, I don't think it's as simple as building a bike lane on Nickerson. Cycling takes effort, some planning and lots of equipment/preparation (as Bike Nerd can probably attest), a lot more effort than getting in the car and driving to work does. And if it rains (which I hear it does a lot of in Seattle, correct me if I'm wrong), most people just don't want to bother. Concrete estimates of activist think tanks overestimate the impact of bike facilities: You're just not going to get a lot of people out of their cars with a few road diets.

  • Gomez

    These fallaciously off-topic comebacks don't really help the cause. It's not just you, dude, it's a lot of people in this thread.

    Can you pro-cyclists come up with some actual intelligent, non-condescending rebuttals that might produce a useful discussion about promoting cycling through incentives instead of coercive punishment of motorists through systematic bottlenecking of streets by opportunistic politicians and lobbyists? I'm sure there are some real, practical, non-fluffy and non-overwrought arguments why ditching the car can improve people's lifestyles.

  • morning

    Dickerson's not paying attention if she thinks traffic's going to end up on Nickerson if the tunnel construction impacts corridor traffic.

    whereas the article has her saying:

    Rep. Mary-Lou Dickerson expressed concern about the potential for heavy traffic on Nickerson once the downtown deep-bore tunnel opens..

    see the difference?

  • ivan

    Forget it, Gomez. These people won't be happy until our streets are like Calcutta's.

  • joshuadf

    “Car drivers” isn't a distinct category of person. I usually walk, sometimes bike or take a car or transit. Most Americans usually take a car but walk a bit too.

  • joshuadf

    I mostly just feel sad that the Nickerson road diet is being opposed, but I find it very interesting that the fears stem from the deep-bore tunnel.

  • misha

    Cars kill more kids, teens and young adults (under 40) in King County than drugs, murder, and all diseases COMBINED. Cars aren't the “scapegoat,” they are, in fact, the #1 social problem of our time.

    That isn't even considering that cars are the #1 cause of pollution and climate change in our area, and that they indirectly cause disasters like the gulf oil spill and foreign wars.

  • Soapboxin'

    I avoided a lot of work time (not salary) bashing McGinn today, but not here. This is a Nickels holdover 100%.

  • Soapboxin'

    SDOT has done its job and made its decision. Their reasoning will not please everyone (I myself cherish the few remaining 4-lane escape routes in Seattle, especially East-West), but the decision was made correctly.
    -
    They are hamstrung by the pedestrian laws. It's either get the regs changed (not gonna pretend I know how that happens) or do the road diet. SPU needs pedestrian access to Tully's. You can't put a crosswalk across 4 lanes. You can't put a traffic light in just for pedestrians there. It would cost a MUCH more to put in the light.
    -
    Enough with the Seattle Process, enough outreach, enough posturing, enough complaining. At some point, we need to let our government govern. The sky will not fall. If it does, Peter Hahn has said that he's willing to repaint the stripes.
    -
    Or maybe we should put it on the ballot and have a referendum…

  • http://www.dougunderground.com DOUG.

    Restriping Nickerson is about as no-brainer a transportation idea you can get. There is currently minimal traffic there and (because they can) cars often exceed 50 mph in an area teeming with pedestrians.

    Rechannel the street. No one has to “be forced out of their car,” just slow down a bit and give cyclists and pedestrians some space. If SDOT can't get this one right, then they are truly useless.

  • Ben Demboski

    Roads with bike lanes seems like a pretty good incentive to promote cycling…

  • morning

    Why do you not just say ” I hate cars (for whatever reason)”?

    Why do you spew out such bull such as There is currently minimal traffic there. and area teeming with pedestrians.

    2008 SDOT traffic count has 23,700 on Nickerson and 22,300 on 45th. That's more traffic on Nick than on 45th. Nickerson doesn't have minimal traffic, it is a major east-west road.

    The only place with a lot of peds is by SPU and there is a light there.

  • http://seattle.gov/spab Jon Morgan

    Adding a center turn lane actually does improve travel conditions for cars because as the street is now, you can get stuck in a travel lane waiting for a car to turn left. Put those left-turning cars in their own center lane and the two car lanes will flow more smoothly. We've seen it in some 30 road diets already in effect all over the city.

    Also, as SDOT Director Peter Hahn testified to the committee, the total cost of this project is well below $200,000–because of the bidding climate and other factors, it's much closer to $50,000.

  • http://seattle.gov/spab Jon Morgan

    This has nothing to do with systematic or any other kind of auto bottlenecking. Read the article linked above on the study of Stone Way's road diet. Look at the other road diets in effect all over the city. Ask SDOT to see some of their copious data on them. Road diets improve mobility for cars, freight, transit, bikes, AND pedestrians. This is about improving safety and using our public roadways most efficiently. It's also about following our complete streets policy.

  • http://seattle.gov/spab Jon Morgan

    Actually, road diets IMPROVE mobility for SOVs and freight.

  • http://seattle.gov/spab Jon Morgan

    Handing it off to experts wouldn't work–we have the data and evidence, but those who don't like the proposal ignore it. That's pretty typical of any political fight.

  • Ben Demboski

    I take a few car trips per week around town, and do the rest of my commuting by bike or on foot. I'm not saying that they should, but if everybody in the city did the same, we would spend a lot less on roads — fewer lanes, smaller freeways, much less spent on filling potholes and whatnot. We would need to maintain the roads for commerce (trucking goods, etc., as you point out), for the many many fewer cars per hour that would travel on them, and for the many more bikes. I don't think anybody can deny with a straight face that in this hypothetical world, we would collectively spend a lot less money on roads.

    If you imagine the aggregate cost of roads if everybody behaved like I do and divide it by the number of people in Seattle (or any local region you choose), you would come up with a much smaller number than the number of my tax dollars that are currently spent on roads. Similarly, if you imagine the aggregate cost of roads if everybody in Seattle drove everywhere they went and divided that up, you would come up with a larger number than the number of my tax dollars that are currently spent on roads. This, I believe, is the valid basis for me claiming that I subsidize people that drive as their primary form of transportation. I pay the same number of dollars (ignoring gas taxes and other small puzzle pieces) towards our road infrastructure, but I consume much less of it.

    We live in a complex society where lots of subsidies flow around, and that is always going to be the case, so I'm not whining here about what is fair and unfair. I am fortunate to have circumstances that allow me to commute mostly by bike, and I recognize that this isn't true of everybody. But our tax structure and budgetary policies do add up to us collectively subsidizing driving over other forms of transportation, and we should consider whether this is a policy that we want to continue. I'm not (right now) making any arguments about what we should do differently, but I am arguing that the claim that we don't subsidize driving with our tax dollars ignores reality, and will not lead to sound decision-making or sound public policy.

  • http://seattle.gov/spab Jon Morgan

    We will never have the money and other resources to enforce speed limits all over the city with police. The cheap, effective way to slow traffic is with engineering, not law enforcement. This road diet would cost about $50,000. Frequent police presence on Nickerson to enforce the speed limit would cost far more and take police away from places and activities they need to deal with.

  • http://seattle.gov/spab Jon Morgan

    A traffic light costs about $200,000. The road diet would cost $50,000–and cover far more intersections. SDOT got sued and was forced to remove three crosswalks on Nickerson after a man crossing in one got hit by a truck or other large vehicle and was sent to Harborview with serious head/brain injuries. We need safer crossings for peds on Nickerson.

    Another note: This is hardly McGinn's idea. It was about to happen last year under Nickels, but he put it on hold for exactly this reason–it's politically contentious and he knew he was in trouble in the upcoming primary. He didn't want to lose any more votes than he had to. Now they're just trying to finish a project that should've been done a year ago.

  • Ben Demboski

    I agree with most of what you said, but the Nickerson road diet is really really cheap. It isn't in the same ballpark as completing the missing link or extending the ship canal trail — it's just painting lines. Enforcing the speed limit would only work temporarily — as soon as the police stopped heightened enforcement, people would start speeding again. So rather than paying dedicated police to hand out tickets on one street in perpetuity, why don't we just spend a little road paint?

    I think your frustration with SDOT is completely merited, but it's not a reason to kill this cheap and sensible project.

  • http://www.dougunderground.com DOUG.

    For a street its size, Nickerson has minimal traffic. And the reason why there are pedestrians only at SPU is because that's where the only crosswalk is.

  • joshuadf

    Regardless, as the region grows, foot and bike traffic will (surprise!) continue to grow. The geography of Seattle is complex, and much more difficult to maneuver than other regions with expansive public and reliable mass transit. Because of this, it seems to that they should leave some – one even! – road to be used by everyone.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Stone Ways is a truck route?

    Hey Apple!

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Then business leaves, land upzones, giain cubes appear, hooooray!

  • Greg

    Hey morning – thanks for pitching such a softball! It's actually really clear that drivers don't pay the full cost of the:

    * the creation and maintenance of the roads they drive on (city streets are paid via property taxes – so non-drivers pay too much)
    * the environmental damage from runoff (e.g. the dying of Puget Sound is mostly due to runoff connected to driving)
    * the health effects of the air pollution they cause (asthma, heart disease, cancer)
    * the slowdowns they levy on other drivers (in Manhattan “it turns out that the average weekday vehicle journey costs other New Yorkers $128 in lost time”
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6516Q3201…
    * the loss of life and limb due to our inadequate driver licensing and traffic enforcement (about 35k dead and several million injured *every year* after year after year)
    * the massive loss of property tax for land being used for parking
    * the health losses due to noise pollution
    * wars for oil they cause ($3 trillion just for Iraq according to Joseph Stiglitz)
    * and of course the damage caused by oil drilling as we're getting to see right now in such graphic terms in the Gulf. This sort of thing happens all the time all over the world, but it usually only bothers poor people so it's not a big deal in the US.

    So of course “there is a wealth transfer from people that don't use cars”. The fact that you can even ask that question with a straight face is like walking around with a giant neon “I'm totally checked out” sign hovering about your head.

    Thanks for playing Publicola!

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    “(rant rant rant)… The Stone Way sharerows are a joke. They do squat to improve cyclist safety compared to what could have been accomplished by eliminating parking on both sides of Stoneway to create dedicated bike lanes….(rant rant)” Sure. I'd even love a network of bicycle freeways throughout downtown. But name a project this cheap and easy that resulted in 15% (!!!) of rush-hour trips by bicycle.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Let them eat bikes.

    Hey, jackass, where is the bus to replace those nasty cars?
    Oh ya, the county is cutting those back, and and money the city could put toward them is about to be funneled to one West Side light rail line.

    It isn't about being a left or right “winger, it is about the reality of trying to get to your fucking job.

    Try putting two kids on your fucking bike, and take a trip to the store, dumbass.

    You dinks, have this bullshit idea that everybody else is just choosing to always drive.
    You cite 25%, what the fuck do you think happens the other 75% of the trips?

    It is people like you that drive people like me far, far away from supporting YOUR lifestyle choice.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    Keep telling us how bad the studies of road diets are, based on your oh-so-expert opinion. Or find us an “unbiased” study that supports your side of the story. Good luck with that.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    And they just happen to be of college age.

    Who knew?

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    Wow. Over 22k cars make it through 45th even after its road diet? And with all of those pedestrians running around, complete with crosswalks everywhere and people pulling in and out of parking spaces to shop?!? Yeah, road diets sound terrible. (/sarcasm)

  • giffy

    Yup. Transportation policy is exactly like a military coup.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    We could always pull a London and charge every non-central Seattle resident non-commercial SOV that enters the central part of the city a pay-to-drive fee, ala London:

    http://www.visitbritain.co.uk/travel-and-transp…

    If you want to cross the Ballard Bridge going south, the Fremont Bridge, or get off I-5: pay. Coming north, you'll have to figure out the demarcation point. I'd say north of the stadiums and their immediate parking areas.

  • Mr. X

    Nowhere near as well as adding left turn lights and maintaining the existing number of lanes would. Not by a long shot.

  • Mr. X

    45th is an absolute clusterfuck – it takes at least a 1/2 hour to get from the U-District to Ballard at peak hour. This sounds reasonable to you?

  • alexbroner

    Everyone should go and read SDOT's analysis of the Nickerson road diet:

    http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/nickerson…

    According to SDOT's analysis the traffic impact will be “minimal”.Specifically it will reduce vehicle volumes slightly at signalized intersections and increase it at un-signalized intersections. All of this is to say that this will not “get people out of their cars” as Lisa Quinn was quoted as saying.

  • Jeff

    As a visitor, not a resident, I'm so sick of your traffic problems and your impotence that I simply stay home. Mission accomplished. Your road diet is also an economic diet. Enjoy the weight loss.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    As I mentioned, 45th has far more impediments to speed than Nickerson does. My question is how can people say Nickerson will have less flow than 45th after the road diet?!

    Oh, and I challenge you to ever time yourself taking 10 minutes to get from Stone to the freeway on 45th – let alone half an hour. It just feels slow because you're in a car and used to freeway speeds. A city street should not be a highway.

  • NordicGal

    While it appears that the diet on Nickerson could be accomplished without much impact on vehicle traffic and some improvement for people on bikes, like me, and people on foot, why not do this on another street right now given all the Viaduct related noise on this one. Heavens knows there are plenty of other streets in the City that could be made safer for people on foot and on bikes.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    Why wait 6 (plus?) years to even start this project if it won't affect traffic? The new tunnel is a red herring.

    Yes, we should do this with other roads as well. But don't think local groups won't protest those as well, using whatever off-topic arguments apply in their area. Fear is a strong motivator, for a car commuter fear of traffic is as well whether or not this fear is logical.

  • Soapboxin'

    As a driver, I have learned to avoid roads and intersections like 45th through Wallingford. In my neighborhood, that's 85th & Greenwood and 80th & Aurora.
    -
    I figure out the path of least resistance. Or, if I have to occasionally, I try to grin and bear it. I recently had to run from Greenwood to the Ballard Library and over to the Burke Museum (bad planning), so I ended up driving all the way East on Market Street and 45th for the first time in a long while. It was not nearly as bad as I expected.
    -
    The larger point is that I don't EXPECT to go fast through Wallingford. Like it or not, pedestrians have the right of way, and it's a valuable town center. Just like Greenwood, which I walk to almost every day.
    -
    Nickerson has to be brought 'up to code'. Freight is important. I believe that if it is really hurting freight (which it shouldn't), they'll do something about it. Believe it or not, SDOT listens to all stakeholders, not just downtown developers.

  • Soapboxin'

    RED HERRING is an idiomatic expression the purpose of which is to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance.
    -
    Do you think Seattle is uniquely suited to this political practice, is it more a sign of the political times in general, or a combination of both?
    -
    I do know that the local discourse is full of people bringing anything into the debate that has the remotest possibility of bringing support to their own polarized viewpoint. I don't think it works.
    -
    I feel I've overused 'red herring' lately, so I'm moving on to 'bunker mentality' as my new favorite piece of jargon.
    -
    bunker mentality n. An attitude of extreme defensiveness and
    self-justification based on an often exaggerated sense of being under
    persistent attack from others.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    I think the red herring technique is an easy way to derail a debate, especially when dealing with an unsophisticated or easily distracted group. As the public is generally both of these things (no offense, but most of us aren't experts on traffic flow, oil spills, or most topics), we see this all over the place in public debate.

  • kurisu

    Is that just like how zoning changes will turn us into Mumbai? At least Pat Murakami has the decency to spell the name of the city right.

  • kurisu

    The Stone Way project was such a joke that injury collisions are only down by a third.

  • ivan

    When your bicycle can't get past the bullock carts, maybe you'll be singing another tune.

  • kurisu

    Maybe if we never had to make decisions, there would never be disagreements over them.

  • Edog

    Do you mean to tell me you don't have one single petrolum based product in your life. I mean the roads we ride on are made with oil, and I'm sure all the sporty breathable fabrics have some petro chemical element to them.

  • Edog

    I wonder if the state study will confirm this?

  • morning

    It's a crap study done by an urbanist consultant. They have their agenda and will put out a “study” to back that agenda for a few pieces of silver.

  • Greg

    Jeff – two questions:

    * What's so much harder about taking the turn offs from I-5 to either Northgate or Pacific Place than taking the turn offs from I-405 to Southcenter or the Bellevue shopping centers? Our local stores primarily target local business.

    * The Indians and the Chinese are very possibly (likely) going to drive oil prices back up to levels that result in > $5/gal gasoline within the next five years. Why shouldn't Seattle try and make our transportation system more efficient to prepare – it's not like you're going to be driving here in that scenario anyway?

  • http://www.zombiezodiac.com/rob/ Rob Ketcherside

    “Take your car hating ideas back to the Taliban.”

    I think that's what many of the commenters here wanted to say, but lack succinctness.

    http://pcj.typepad.com/planning_commissioners_j…

  • http://spifflines.blogspot.com/ John Bailo
  • Punk Ass Bitch

    I am willing to contribute my 10 cents (the cost per person of this project) and not drive Nickerson at 40mph to spare a pedestrian from the horror of getting hit by a fast moving car. From the comments here a lot of other people seem unwilling to make such sacrifices.

  • morning

    you're such a goof – so causing congestion and more pollution makes you happy – and check out the number of pedestrian collisions on 45th – about 6 times those on Nickerson.

    45th had more and better flow before the diet – SDOT's concessions to the diet crowd has led Seattle to the status of the most congested city in the country – the study that shows that, wasn't paid for by an agenda driven group – most congested equals most polluting per mile .

    In the ever changing pro diet world of reasons – it will get people out of cars – it will not reduce traffic flow – it will slow traffic – industry will not be impacted – there are lots of pedestrians there now – the reason there are so few pedestrian accidents there is people won't walk there because it is so dangerous – street congestion will cause businesses to move there – it doesn't carry much traffic anyway – well if it carries as much as 45th then 45th wasn't impacted by a diet. blah!

    M_E you know little about the city as you yourself point out, you have little historical perspective, you have no idea what volume was on 45th before or what congestion was like there before and need to be spoon fed data…

  • Punk Ass Bitch

    There is no road diet on 45th east of I-5 and the traffic there seems to me to be worse than on the west side. If we really wanted to improve traffic on 45th we would toll the on ramp to I-5.

  • kurisu

    Maybe you caqn hire a ruralist consultant and build Nickerson in Zillah or Winthrop

  • kurisu

    “Heffron Transportation is known as one of the foremost freight transportation experts in the State of Washington”

  • morning

    Straw man – no one has argued that it is too expensive. People have argued it would be better to put crosswalk lights up there or other locations. Nickerson is not on the list of most dangerous streets.

    I would spend 10 cents to stop the horror of 83 year old women being killed by speeding bicycles on multi-use trails by installing spike strips on them.

    I support enforcing the speed limits in Seattle for cars on streets and bikes on trails. I would support better crossings on those streets where pedestrians are at significantly greater risk than Nickerson.

  • MudBaby

    It's still quite possible to get doored on Stone Way.

  • MudBaby

    Where's the proof?

  • John

    Yes, and in those cities you can get around without a car fairly easily most of the time (to varying degrees depending on the city). Seattle's not there yet.

  • John

    Every single road diet proposal gets people all fired up. The long-term impacts for the people who live in the neighborhoods impacted by the road diets are proof that these are the right way to go for the long term.

  • kurisu

    Mary Lou Dickerson told a friend of mine that the project was too expensive.

  • the side

    I was surprised to hear on KUOW the Feet First comment about this essentially being about getting people out of cars. KUOW even got it wrong in saying this was about bicyclists. They should get rid of the bike lanes to clarify that this is about pedestrian safety and reducing observed speeds. These people need to get the messaging right. Feet First seems disingenuous in claiming that this policy is about getting people out of cars because it isn't.

    Red herring and bunker mentality are the perfect terms to use to describe the players here. The Nickerson Diet will not get people out of their cars anymore than it will kill business and restrict deliveries. Both sides being quoted are professionals who are paid to exaggerate the truth.

    I support this proposal, but loathe the professional advocates in this town who spin these issues out of proportion to reality.

  • morning

    just curious, if accidents go up by 33% – i.e. 5 in five years will the diet be a failure/

  • Punk Ass Bitch

    Not directly but you imply that we shouldn't do this project because the need is greater in other areas. That is just another way of saying that the cost is not worth the benefit. Unless opponents of this project give a credible argument that the cost is anything other than 50K and losing the ability to speed then I am forced to conclude that they view a dime a person and forgoing speeding as more important than the benefits.

  • Gomezticator

    You're right! Look at N 45th's!

  • Gomez

    What heavy traffic? Who else is going to use it aside from those currently using it?

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    You're getting to be a troll, [morning]. Or are you really saying that my problem is that I wasn't born when 45th went on a road diet?

    I simply asked if anyone was around back before 1972 that remembers the feel of the area. I know the volumes: 19,421 before the road diet, 20,274 after. See Road Diets by Burden and Lagerway, 1999.

    I guess I'll go through your attacks, um, arguments, one by one.

    “so causing congestion and more pollution makes you happy” Um, no. Not that one leads to the other (thanks to induced demand, it's the opposite).

    “number of pedestrian collisions on 45th – about 6 times those on Nickerson” Check out the number of pedestrians on 45th – I'll bet it's way over 6x that of Nickerson.

    “45th had more and better flow before the diet” Wrong. See spoon-fed data above.

    “led Seattle to the status of the most congested city in the country” I still don't buy your study, but you're allowed to your opinion. I'd also love to see your data showing this is caused by road diets.

    “it will get people out of cars” I think we can both agree it was not the smartest thing for her to say in this context, and implies we'd do this by increasing traffic. She likely was looking at the increase in bike commuters.

    “it will not reduce traffic flow” True. See any road diet study.

    “it will slow traffic” True. This is not logically inconsistant. Speeding just to wait in line won't move any more cars.

    “there are lots of pedestrians there now” Who said that? Considering it runs through a college I'd expect to see far more people. Must be the speeding cars.

    “street congestion will cause businesses to move there” Pedestrian friendly streets attract retail.

    “it doesn't carry much traffic anyway” Compared to a 4-lane road's capacity, certainly true.

    “well if it carries as much as 45th then 45th wasn't impacted by a diet.” You're mixing up two seperate points. Probably on purpose.

  • alexbroner

    Deciding not to make decisions is itself a decision ; )

  • C'mon

    LOL. Oh touche joshua! Not everyone deserves to use a road – surprise! You know why? The same reason why cars shouldn't use the bike/pedestrian path on both sides of the cut. It's a great concept that benefits all parties.

    Why is the concept of leaving certain roads – a few! – as primarily auto oriented so repugnant to Seattle's bike-obsessed folks. As I said before, the lack of empathy is stunning.

  • C'mon

    Not completely true: there is a light-controlled crosswalk in front of the 7-11. When I lived there that's how I crossed Nickerson while on foot or bike.

  • C'mon

    Well Mister SOV-destroy the environment – maybe you should just stop driving your car and hop on a bike!

    It's just that simple or seems to be so for those myopic types. Here's an actual idea: avoid 45th and use 40th. You can go waaaay faster and maybe even take out a few bikers in the process (I jest… jeez, relax). In all seriousness, it's a great road only because of the fewer lights.

  • doug_in_seattle

    Riding a bike is cheap. Riding a bike is fun. Riding a bike makes you healthier. Riding a bike is a great way to get to know the city you live in. Riding a bike reduces car traffic. Riding a bike is better for the environment.

  • doug_in_seattle

    Yes — because our lifestyle is based around oil means we should waste as much as possible and fight any alternative as much as possible. Awesome argument. Cars are an enormous waste of energy, and using them less would create an “energy independent” America way, way sooner than drilling for more oil.

    For the record, my “breathable fabrics” are almost all second-hand wool shirts and sweaters.

  • doug_in_seattle

    I would say the vast majority of roads in Seattle are primarily auto oriented.

  • C'mon

    Oh man, I feel myself channeling the NRA here but the main thrust of your point is exactly wrong: the cars didn't kill all those people, the idiots driving them did.

    I'm no car apologist but you are using cars specifically as a scapegoat. Make gas more expensive, tax car tabs, add more tolls, whatever you want to get more money for transit and separate bike and walking trails. In the process, it will most likely get fewer to resort to driving. But don't make it so inconvenient to drive in the city because then you make it more inconvenient for those that actually NEED to get around.

    You think your organic tofu and your free-range, cruelty-free oat milk just put themselves on the shevles at PCC? No, a truck (gasp!) from somewhere has to transport it from here to there. I doubt they're being delivered by stork or ox cart. But honestly, that would be cool to see.

  • doug_in_seattle

    I was under the impression that signalization suffers from the law of diminishing returns. As in, adding protected left turn signals overall slows down traffic the more they're used.

  • kurisu

    C'liche C'liche C'liche

  • kurisu

    You're right! Deciding to delay is a decision.

  • wes kirkman

    You mean like I-5, 99, 90, 520? Sounds like a few to me.

  • morning

    In economics there is a term called opportunity cost. In this case spending the money here would be better spent where there are much higher numbers of pedestrian collisions. That in no way says that this project is too expensive. Now changing the question to whether this is the best cost/benefit ratio is changing your point.

  • morning

    how existentialist

  • Edog

    The point was we did not get into this position overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight, so lets not overstate the effects of one strip of road on national oil policy, which was presented as “spil baby spill”.

  • Edog

    The point was we did not get into this position overnight, and we won't get out of it overnight, so lets not overstate the effects of one strip of road on national oil policy, which was presented as “spil baby spill”.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    If Doug's plan is too slow, what's your plan?

  • C'mon

    Excellent retort. Very pragmatic and persuasive.

  • morning

    ouch,

    quoting from the guy (LagerwEy by the way) that coined the term road diet is hardly convincing. there are no cites for the volumes and no stats on the congestion numbers.

    interesting that only seattle showed increases in volumes ad. 45th east of the freeway carries 37,000 while west it carries 25,000 – clearly it carries more because there is more demand perhaps if we road diet it to the east we see an increase to 40k but i doubt it.

    what seems to be clear is that as many or more cars drive ad and therefore pollute more because they are in congested traffic.

    seattle has earned the most congested title fair and square.

  • Ben Demboski

    Morning, you are still not presenting any evidence for your claim that road diets are somehow the cause of us having the worst congestion. I can see a circumstantial argument that it is a contributing factor, but how can you be sure that it isn't completely dwarfed by other factors? It's a pretty complex problem, and if you have some sophisticated analysis of it that produces this result, please share your homework!

  • Punk Ass Bitch

    I agree that the city should probably have planned safety improvements for some other street. But as long as the plans are ready for this and the cause is next to nothing we ought to go ahead with it.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    You want non-condescending rebuttals to condescending inferences like, “reducing SOVs equals hating cars”?

  • Anc

    I've only heard this second hand, but one reason the raw numbers of accidents might be comparitively low is that the current arrangment is very discouraging for pedistrians. It could be that per user the accident rate is much higher.

  • C'mon

    “You mean like I-5, 99, 90, 520? Sounds like a few to me”

    Yeah exactly. I'll let those people driving from Magnolia to I-5 that they should take 99, or 90 or 520. Excellent point.

    Once again, the europhile Seattlites who don't exist in reality strike again. The point being: there is no major east-west corridor like Nickerson.

    My concern, which is the same as most pragmatic people trying to work out some middle ground here, is that this is a slippery slope. I can already hear the complaints: after bikers get their own lane on Nickerson (after complaining that a bike path on the cut isn't good enough) they will begin to complain that bike/car accidents have INCREASED after this: “cars are out of control”, “it's so dangerous to bike in Seattle with CARS”. blah blah blah

    I'll be sad to see an increase in bike/pedestrian accidents as the agro “bike commuters” now will even be more emboldened to ignore traffic signals and walkers/strollers. Whether driving a car or riding a bike, a hurried person with a holier-than-thou attitude is a danger to their surroundings.

  • Rosspatton2

    Well, to be fair, i get quite tired of the cliche that you must be some kind rabid granola eating hippie to (gasp!) ride a bike. It gets really old.

    And no you’re right, the big problem is that for all the talk about how ‘aggro’ and reckless bike riders are, it’s the idiots talking on their cellphone while driving 45 in a 30 mph zone that kill people. Even the most idiotic, aggressive biker stands only to really lose his own life, most likely to an idiotic aggressive driver.

  • Rosspatton2

    I live in upper QA and bike along Nickerson and SLU regularly. However, like most bikers who bike in that area, I don’t bike in the street. I go through the parking lot right next to Nickerson.

    I don’t want to. But biking on Nickerson as it is, is not fun or safe.

    Obviously i’m a bit late on this, but road diets have tons of statistics backing them. And from my personal experience I know this would help me out.

  • Rosspatton2

    Give me a break. A lot of that backup is just at the bridge, and a lot of that are just cars waiting to turn backing up cars behind them.

    And there are a lot of pedestrians and cyclists along this route, but they are pushed off to the sidewalk and parking lot next to Nickerson. As a biker I don’t ride in the street (i cut through the parking lot, which is what most people do) until I get past the bridge.

    If they make it easier to bike, good, maybe I won’t have to dodge cars in a parking lot anymore.