Metro Wages, Raises Among Highest In Nation

You use “drivers” and “employees” interchangeably, but what are the percentages? There are at least drivers, maintenance. supervisors, management, and all the people who write out each paper schedule by hand.

You use “drivers” and “employees” interchangeably, but what are the percentages? There are at least drivers, maintenance. supervisors, management, and all the people who write out each paper schedule by hand.

“It’s clear that if the union does not make wage and benefits concessions, the result will be fewer buses on the street and fewer drivers on the roads.”

Really? Is it entirely obvious, natural, and clear that the only possible response to a budget shortfall at Metro is to cut the wages and benefits of Metro bus drivers? Middle and upper-level management is exempt from cuts? All other employees are exempt? Everything must be held constant except for drivers' salaries? And, of course, it's inconceivable to imagine that the county raise new revenue as an alternative to further shrinking consumer spending during a recession.

There's a war going on against public sector unions right now, and you're buying into it.

“It’s clear that if the union does not make wage and benefits concessions, the result will be fewer buses on the street and fewer drivers on the roads.”

Really? Is it entirely obvious, natural, and clear that the only possible response to a budget shortfall at Metro is to cut the wages and benefits of Metro bus drivers? Middle and upper-level management is exempt from cuts? All other employees are exempt? Everything must be held constant except for drivers' salaries? And, of course, it's inconceivable to imagine that the county raise new revenue as an alternative to further shrinking consumer spending during a recession.

There's a war going on against public sector unions right now, and you're buying into it.

I agree with Trevor.

In my experience, Metro runs much better buses than either San Francisco or New York. It is a better bus service than any I have experienced.

It looks to me like there is not much difference between salaries here and salaries in San Francisco or New York, and we have no clue what other factors might be related to the slight difference in hourly wages, like differences in benefits or other things. So why make a big deal about pennies in difference?

And then conclude that the drivers need to take a hit to keep the service running?

The Metro bus drivers that drive my buses are fantastic and deal with things most of us could not even contemplate. I am all for paying them an honest wage that keeps good people in good jobs.

I am also for reporting and commentary that shows as much respect for the work they do as shows for breatheless slanted headlines and opinions based on an incomplete reporting of the pertinent facts.

I agree with Trevor.

In my experience, Metro runs much better buses than either San Francisco or New York. It is a better bus service than any I have experienced.

It looks to me like there is not much difference between salaries here and salaries in San Francisco or New York, and we have no clue what other factors might be related to the slight difference in hourly wages, like differences in benefits or other things. So why make a big deal about pennies in difference?

And then conclude that the drivers need to take a hit to keep the service running?

The Metro bus drivers that drive my buses are fantastic and deal with things most of us could not even contemplate. I am all for paying them an honest wage that keeps good people in good jobs.

I am also for reporting and commentary that shows as much respect for the work they do as shows for breatheless slanted headlines and opinions based on an incomplete reporting of the pertinent facts.

I would not want to be a bus driver in the county's urban areas. Good pay and benefits should be awarded to people who put up with crappy jobs and unsafe working conditions.

I would not want to be a bus driver in the county's urban areas. Good pay and benefits should be awarded to people who put up with crappy jobs and unsafe working conditions.

Public sector unions should not exist. They are vampires sucking the actual productive workforce dry and then complaining that they aren't paid lavishly enough.

Public sector unions should not exist. They are vampires sucking the actual productive workforce dry and then complaining that they aren't paid lavishly enough.

The fact that Metro drivers have done a good job at negotiating good contracts does not make their salary “out of whack”. I mean, I understand that you're an expert on what their jobs entail, the hours they put in, the schedules they endure, the customers they have the luxury of dealing with, the 358 and the 7, etc, etc, but just because they make a higher wage working, every day, not able to show up late, etc, than you is no reason to talk shit about their salary or benefits.

The fact that Metro drivers have done a good job at negotiating good contracts does not make their salary “out of whack”. I mean, I understand that you're an expert on what their jobs entail, the hours they put in, the schedules they endure, the customers they have the luxury of dealing with, the 358 and the 7, etc, etc, but just because they make a higher wage working, every day, not able to show up late, etc, than you is no reason to talk shit about their salary or benefits.

Erica–you haven't even covered the Transit Task Force where this information was presented last night and publicly released last week. So you take a conversation with Doug McDonald and roll it up in a bunch of anti-union, anti-working people rhetoric without any context.

Seattle is actually a pretty expensive place to live, but you don't bother to present any cost of living info. Then you go on to repeat Susan Hutchison's attacks on county employee benefits as “Cadillac plans”. Never mind the context that they are not all that different from the city, state, or many private employers. County employees now may a much higher percentage of co-pays for care, so the benefit argument also lazy and one-sided.

This sentence is straight out of the Washington Policy Center handbook,

“The reason for those high wages and benefits is, in large part, the union”

I never realized that you bought into anti-union rhetoric. Labor law is pretty weak in this country and unions are not all that strong. Yet you want to paint them as a boogeyman.

The ATU contract is up and Metro does need to negotiate a better contract to reflect a changed economy and I think they have every intention of doing so. But your anti-worker bullshit belongs on Sound Politics.

Erica–you haven't even covered the Transit Task Force where this information was presented last night and publicly released last week. So you take a conversation with Doug McDonald and roll it up in a bunch of anti-union, anti-working people rhetoric without any context.

Seattle is actually a pretty expensive place to live, but you don't bother to present any cost of living info. Then you go on to repeat Susan Hutchison's attacks on county employee benefits as “Cadillac plans”. Never mind the context that they are not all that different from the city, state, or many private employers. County employees now may a much higher percentage of co-pays for care, so the benefit argument also lazy and one-sided.

This sentence is straight out of the Washington Policy Center handbook,

“The reason for those high wages and benefits is, in large part, the union”

I never realized that you bought into anti-union rhetoric. Labor law is pretty weak in this country and unions are not all that strong. Yet you want to paint them as a boogeyman.

The ATU contract is up and Metro does need to negotiate a better contract to reflect a changed economy and I think they have every intention of doing so. But your anti-worker bullshit belongs on Sound Politics.

And yet most of them can't be bothered to announce stops, be on time, or really do much of anything.

And yet most of them can't be bothered to announce stops, be on time, or really do much of anything.

Not sure there was much of a conversation. It is not made clear, but this story seems to come from MacDonald's story over at Crosscut. Check the link “points out”

Not sure there was much of a conversation. It is not made clear, but this story seems to come from MacDonald's story over at Crosscut. Check the link “points out”

ECB – could you provide a link to the report?

ECB – could you provide a link to the report?

What have you got against transit drivers getting decent benefits and earning a living wage?

What have you got against transit drivers getting decent benefits and earning a living wage?

Erica,
I slightly disingenuous post by you here. Your entire post is based on reporting and commentary by Crosscut — but aren't they they geezers who can't tell a wheelchair from a wheelie?

What you meant to say was Crosscut did some worthwhile commentary. The word of Publicola? Down to 2 fulltimers and a bunch of freebie writers.

By the way lately Publicola has passed the Seattle Times in terms of shameless self promotion.

Erica,
I slightly disingenuous post by you here. Your entire post is based on reporting and commentary by Crosscut — but aren't they they geezers who can't tell a wheelchair from a wheelie?

What you meant to say was Crosscut did some worthwhile commentary. The word of Publicola? Down to 2 fulltimers and a bunch of freebie writers.

By the way lately Publicola has passed the Seattle Times in terms of shameless self promotion.

Good to see that a Publicola writer is ideologically aligned with such progressive institutions such as Cato, the American Enterprise Institute, and the IMF for that matter.

Good to see that a Publicola writer is ideologically aligned with such progressive institutions such as Cato, the American Enterprise Institute, and the IMF for that matter.

Uh, no, the report is actually on Metro's web site. I talked to Metro, Dow's office, and Doug, and I called the ATU. Additionally, I linked directly to Doug's post, which I thought made some excellent points. Not sure what you think is “disingenuous” about that.

Uh, no, the report is actually on Metro's web site. I talked to Metro, Dow's office, and Doug, and I called the ATU. Additionally, I linked directly to Doug's post, which I thought made some excellent points. Not sure what you think is “disingenuous” about that.

Nordic Gal and Trevor are right in that Metro generally has better drivers and service than most major metropolitan areas in my experience.

Oh darn, there I go trying to put things in context again.

Nordic Gal and Trevor are right in that Metro generally has better drivers and service than most major metropolitan areas in my experience.

Oh darn, there I go trying to put things in context again.

MacDonald's report seems to have every point you covered a couple of days before you did. It doesn't really matter but you always make such a big deal about scoops. You didn't mention Crosscut or that the link goes to an article.

Once again, could you link to or post the report?

MacDonald's report seems to have every point you covered a couple of days before you did. It doesn't really matter but you always make such a big deal about scoops. You didn't mention Crosscut or that the link goes to an article.

Once again, could you link to or post the report?

There are some good arguments against the piece, but let's not act like all Metro drivers are great people. Some are pretty shitty to their riders, slamming doors in riders' faces and driving off, rudely snapping at drivers, not making a real effort to keep the route on time when it's very possible to do so, screwing with riders and pretending they didn't pay enough fare when they did just because they don't like them, and other forms of embittered sociopathy empowered by their position as transit drivers.

Yes, most drivers are above board and many are very nice (and please make every effort to send Metro a formal commendation whenever your driver does an exceptional job: The good ones don't get enough of those).

But don't act like many of them don't take advantage of their position, knowing the worst that will happen to them is maybe someone will complain and it will go in their file, where nothing of note will come of it 9 times out of 10 because most of the time people will give them a benefit of the doubt that some of them don't deserve. Many of these shitty drivers are on easier routes and commuter routes, cushy gigs that are better served given to those underappreciated good drivers.

Basically, some of this general backlash on ECB's piece is on point, but 'Metro drivers are all great people who all deserve their high wages' rhetoric is cut from the same logical cloth as 'All unions are bad'. No, like everything else in life, some of them are good, and some of them are bad.

There are some good arguments against the piece, but let's not act like all Metro drivers are great people. Some are pretty shitty to their riders, slamming doors in riders' faces and driving off, rudely snapping at drivers, not making a real effort to keep the route on time when it's very possible to do so, screwing with riders and pretending they didn't pay enough fare when they did just because they don't like them, and other forms of embittered sociopathy empowered by their position as transit drivers.

Yes, most drivers are above board and many are very nice (and please make every effort to send Metro a formal commendation whenever your driver does an exceptional job: The good ones don't get enough of those).

But don't act like many of them don't take advantage of their position, knowing the worst that will happen to them is maybe someone will complain and it will go in their file, where nothing of note will come of it 9 times out of 10 because most of the time people will give them a benefit of the doubt that some of them don't deserve. Many of these shitty drivers are on easier routes and commuter routes, cushy gigs that are better served given to those underappreciated good drivers.

Basically, some of this general backlash on ECB's piece is on point, but 'Metro drivers are all great people who all deserve their high wages' rhetoric is cut from the same logical cloth as 'All unions are bad'. No, like everything else in life, some of them are good, and some of them are bad.

Geting older, Erica? It's okay to get older or deritive. It happens. But lose the attitude.

Geting older, Erica? It's okay to get older or deritive. It happens. But lose the attitude.

Good reporting! Time to end the waste.

Good reporting! Time to end the waste.

What, and management doesn't do the same thing? Have a union isn't perfect, but when you have a top heavy management, someone has to keep them in check.

What, and management doesn't do the same thing? Have a union isn't perfect, but when you have a top heavy management, someone has to keep them in check.

Seriously? Do you think that all unions work for are higher wages? How about fairness in hiring and layoffs? How about civility in the work place? How about protecting workers from arbitrary and capricious actions? Unions aren't perfect, but public sector employees need protection from bad managers just like private sector employees do.

Seriously? Do you think that all unions work for are higher wages? How about fairness in hiring and layoffs? How about civility in the work place? How about protecting workers from arbitrary and capricious actions? Unions aren't perfect, but public sector employees need protection from bad managers just like private sector employees do.

What waste? What good reporting?

What waste? What good reporting?

This story is no story at all.

This story is no story at all.

The typical approach of any union or union-like job, the latter applies to many state jobs, is to preserve the status quo. The status quo typically means an annual COLA plus an additional step increase(s), which together are very inflationary. Once one reaches the top of their range, it's only the COLAs. When layoffs come, the newest and probably the most productive get axed. The concern among the most-senior is saving their own job, not taking any concession that would save somebody else their job. The fact that the least-senior have family and other obligations is of no concern to the most-senior. That's been what I've seen most of the time.

The typical approach of any union or union-like job, the latter applies to many state jobs, is to preserve the status quo. The status quo typically means an annual COLA plus an additional step increase(s), which together are very inflationary. Once one reaches the top of their range, it's only the COLAs. When layoffs come, the newest and probably the most productive get axed. The concern among the most-senior is saving their own job, not taking any concession that would save somebody else their job. The fact that the least-senior have family and other obligations is of no concern to the most-senior. That's been what I've seen most of the time.

What top heavy management? If there's too much chaff in the government, by
all means, slice it out. We hardly need extra layers of bureaucratic
leeches, much less the hordes of union parasites. Then we could spend the
tax dollars on something other than the plushest of benefits for a few union
workers and their cronies.

What top heavy management? If there's too much chaff in the government, by
all means, slice it out. We hardly need extra layers of bureaucratic
leeches, much less the hordes of union parasites. Then we could spend the
tax dollars on something other than the plushest of benefits for a few union
workers and their cronies.

Not having to pay a penny of their own premiums is hardly 'decent
benefits'. It's outrageous advantage taking. What have you got against
public employees paying any portion at all of their own 'decent benefits'
paid for by taxpayers making 40k per annum and getting told they should be
grateful to fund the overpaid bus drivers?

Not having to pay a penny of their own premiums is hardly 'decent
benefits'. It's outrageous advantage taking. What have you got against
public employees paying any portion at all of their own 'decent benefits'
paid for by taxpayers making 40k per annum and getting told they should be
grateful to fund the overpaid bus drivers?

Wow. This article has the same propaganda that nearly every employer puts out heading into contract negotiations.

For example: “The top wage for a driver at Metro is $28.47 an hour”. Okay, that's the top wage. What is the starting wage? How long term an employee must you be to earn this top wage? How many drivers actually make this amount? How many hours to drivers get per week on average?

Don't you think all this information matters when reporting on the wages of drivers?

And that's just one example of the how this article fails to give context to the information about the Metro Contract.

Wow. This article has the same propaganda that nearly every employer puts out heading into contract negotiations.

For example: “The top wage for a driver at Metro is $28.47 an hour”. Okay, that's the top wage. What is the starting wage? How long term an employee must you be to earn this top wage? How many drivers actually make this amount? How many hours to drivers get per week on average?

Don't you think all this information matters when reporting on the wages of drivers?

And that's just one example of the how this article fails to give context to the information about the Metro Contract.

not news. so they make decent salaries, good for them! Under $65,000 a year, they deserve more. There is nothing better for society than opportunities for people to support their families, buy their own homes and send their children to college. Maybe you prefer bus drivers who have to work a second job to get by? I didn't realize this is a friggin right-wing rag.

not news. so they make decent salaries, good for them! Under $65,000 a year, they deserve more. There is nothing better for society than opportunities for people to support their families, buy their own homes and send their children to college. Maybe you prefer bus drivers who have to work a second job to get by? I didn't realize this is a friggin right-wing rag.

Sloppy reporting. You really could do better.

Sloppy reporting. You really could do better.

Almost half of Metro's bus drivers are part time employees,and for many of those folks, that's the only job they have.
What has kept bus driver hourly wages as high as the are is the ” floor” for wage increases. The cost of living raises are for 90% of the CPI, but with a 2% annual increase minimum, and a 6% maximum. So if the economy had become inflationary and we were seeing double digit inflation, bus drivers would be screwed.
I'd like to see Erica Barnett behind the wheel of a bus for one day. It wouldn't be quite as easy as stating opinions as facts, and being Publicola's great pontificator.
There are people in the Seattle area making millions of dollars per year, and some of them get favorable tax status/subsidies. But it's the 60 thousand dollar a year bus drivers that are the real problem?

Almost half of Metro's bus drivers are part time employees,and for many of those folks, that's the only job they have.
What has kept bus driver hourly wages as high as the are is the ” floor” for wage increases. The cost of living raises are for 90% of the CPI, but with a 2% annual increase minimum, and a 6% maximum. So if the economy had become inflationary and we were seeing double digit inflation, bus drivers would be screwed.
I'd like to see Erica Barnett behind the wheel of a bus for one day. It wouldn't be quite as easy as stating opinions as facts, and being Publicola's great pontificator.
There are people in the Seattle area making millions of dollars per year, and some of them get favorable tax status/subsidies. But it's the 60 thousand dollar a year bus drivers that are the real problem?

I tried to write a small rebuttal to this article in Crosscut with a few inadvertent misspellings etc.
Mainly I don't think the 3.9% that is quoted is true. We (I am a Metro Driver) have been limited to 80% of COLA throughout the last 3 decades by a contract that our union has ratified. So we are actually behind if we had actually gotten the raises in wages with 100% COLA. Ira's 90% may be correct but not from my reading of the contracts. At one point about 15 years ago after months of protracted negotiations we were given a “raise” however that brought us up to the level we would have been if we had signed in the beginning.
As for benefits- those of you who have complained about drivers – think how awful more drivers would act if they had worse benefits- driving while tired (exhausted) and sick. etc…
Jay

I tried to write a small rebuttal to this article in Crosscut with a few inadvertent misspellings etc.
Mainly I don't think the 3.9% that is quoted is true. We (I am a Metro Driver) have been limited to 80% of COLA throughout the last 3 decades by a contract that our union has ratified. So we are actually behind if we had actually gotten the raises in wages with 100% COLA. Ira's 90% may be correct but not from my reading of the contracts. At one point about 15 years ago after months of protracted negotiations we were given a “raise” however that brought us up to the level we would have been if we had signed in the beginning.
As for benefits- those of you who have complained about drivers – think how awful more drivers would act if they had worse benefits- driving while tired (exhausted) and sick. etc…
Jay

Erica, why always with the hardon for Metro? I've long suspected that underneath your facade of a latter-day Lois Lane, you're a little Texas princess who wants the bus to pick her up and drop her off at her whim without any pesky handicapped people to slow down the process. Since you can't get your way on that, the Texas teabagger in you is coming to the surface – complaining about how the gubbermint is paying them lazy workers too much. What's next? A diatribe about “union bosses”?

I think it's time to be honest with yourself, move back to Plano, marry a nice mild dentist who you can henpeck, and never, ever have to do anything uncomfortable or inconvenient again – especially public transportation . You can write a little column for the local weekly about woman's issues (PEO meetings, church suppers, PTA, etc.) that you can add controversy to by highlighting a midwife or discussing breast feeding.

I know it's tough to give up on a dream, but acknowledgment is the first step in solving a problem.

Erica, why always with the hardon for Metro? I've long suspected that underneath your facade of a latter-day Lois Lane, you're a little Texas princess who wants the bus to pick her up and drop her off at her whim without any pesky handicapped people to slow down the process. Since you can't get your way on that, the Texas teabagger in you is coming to the surface – complaining about how the gubbermint is paying them lazy workers too much. What's next? A diatribe about “union bosses”?

I think it's time to be honest with yourself, move back to Plano, marry a nice mild dentist who you can henpeck, and never, ever have to do anything uncomfortable or inconvenient again – especially public transportation . You can write a little column for the local weekly about woman's issues (PEO meetings, church suppers, PTA, etc.) that you can add controversy to by highlighting a midwife or discussing breast feeding.

I know it's tough to give up on a dream, but acknowledgment is the first step in solving a problem.

With the city, you max out at five years, and it's just COLA after that, usually tied to the inflation index, with a minimum of 1% or thereabouts, which I think is fair.

Other than that, what you say is mostly unfortunately true. I've never worked at a place where they are so reticent to fire or even just discipline someone for not doing their job – and I've worked for the UW, and a Big Ten state university, as well as union hotels.

With the city, you max out at five years, and it's just COLA after that, usually tied to the inflation index, with a minimum of 1% or thereabouts, which I think is fair.

Other than that, what you say is mostly unfortunately true. I've never worked at a place where they are so reticent to fire or even just discipline someone for not doing their job – and I've worked for the UW, and a Big Ten state university, as well as union hotels.

Everyone deserves decent benefits. Everyone! It's not that public employees are “taking advantage” by not having to pay premiums. It's that everyone else is getting screwed by having to pay premiums. You should be angry that your own employer (I'm assuming) is giving you a raw deal instead of complaining that someone is getting proper health insurance. No one should have to pay a penny for decent health care – it should be a fundamental human right in this country.

Transit operators have difficult jobs. Sitting and operating a bus frequently causes all kinds of problems like carpal tunnel or back injuries. Furthermore, operators have to deal with a frequently hostile public all day long, and work under the constant threat of potential physical attack. I'm happy paying taxes to support the salaries and health care for these folks.

Everyone deserves decent benefits. Everyone! It's not that public employees are “taking advantage” by not having to pay premiums. It's that everyone else is getting screwed by having to pay premiums. You should be angry that your own employer (I'm assuming) is giving you a raw deal instead of complaining that someone is getting proper health insurance. No one should have to pay a penny for decent health care – it should be a fundamental human right in this country.

Transit operators have difficult jobs. Sitting and operating a bus frequently causes all kinds of problems like carpal tunnel or back injuries. Furthermore, operators have to deal with a frequently hostile public all day long, and work under the constant threat of potential physical attack. I'm happy paying taxes to support the salaries and health care for these folks.

I don't understand the American meme that demands that we all race to the bottom while the top gets smaller and smaller…

“We're in a global economy!” they cry, but we're only in a global economy because the uber wealthy chose us to be and we, like sheep, went along – because, after all, we might be rich one day. Media panders to this by making celebrities out of boring people like Donald Trump just because they have money.

“We pay too much in taxes! We must tighten our belts” they cry, but taxes are at a forty year low, especially for the wealthy, yet we believe it because, hey, Ronald Reagan told us that government was inefficient, and all it needed was a good dose of Republicanism and de-regulation, with some trade treaties that only a financier could love thrown in by Bill Clinton. Not a mention made of the rathole called “national defense” we have shoveled millions into since 1947 with very little to show for it – other than a new welfare state.

“The unions are corrupt and counterproductive to business” they cry, but no one ever talks about how unfettered capitalism is even worse for business, as all the major industries merge into a few companies, competition is stifled, and even the best politicians are bought off just to try to stay in office to pass a few meager citizen-oriented programs.

When will Americans ever wake up and realize that, all warm and fuzzy advertising and gentle-voiced spokespersons aside, corporations are sociopaths that are destroying our “way of life”, not the unions, and certainly not the 60K a year bus drivers?

We're played for fools, each and every day, and we're glad for it. It's pitiful.

I don't understand the American meme that demands that we all race to the bottom while the top gets smaller and smaller…

“We're in a global economy!” they cry, but we're only in a global economy because the uber wealthy chose us to be and we, like sheep, went along – because, after all, we might be rich one day. Media panders to this by making celebrities out of boring people like Donald Trump just because they have money.

“We pay too much in taxes! We must tighten our belts” they cry, but taxes are at a forty year low, especially for the wealthy, yet we believe it because, hey, Ronald Reagan told us that government was inefficient, and all it needed was a good dose of Republicanism and de-regulation, with some trade treaties that only a financier could love thrown in by Bill Clinton. Not a mention made of the rathole called “national defense” we have shoveled millions into since 1947 with very little to show for it – other than a new welfare state.

“The unions are corrupt and counterproductive to business” they cry, but no one ever talks about how unfettered capitalism is even worse for business, as all the major industries merge into a few companies, competition is stifled, and even the best politicians are bought off just to try to stay in office to pass a few meager citizen-oriented programs.

When will Americans ever wake up and realize that, all warm and fuzzy advertising and gentle-voiced spokespersons aside, corporations are sociopaths that are destroying our “way of life”, not the unions, and certainly not the 60K a year bus drivers?

We're played for fools, each and every day, and we're glad for it. It's pitiful.

Good job, everyone who either hates or loves unions, to take your feelings, wrap them around sticks, flavor them with a little agist/sexist ad hominem, and beat Erica with them. Why don't you beat a male writer once in a while? But that doesn't feel as satisfying, does it.

Compare bus drivers' union wages with the wages of hotel workers or restaurant workers, many (but not all) of whom belong to unions. Low-wage unions, that is; there's a big difference between different union' wages now. ATU's managed to hang onto generally living wages; SEIU and Unite-HERE have done their best but have not, and they've lost union coverage. As far as difficult jobs go, everytime you go to one of the restaurants lauded in Publicola, you are very possibly eating food cooked by someone who's sick but can't afford to stay home, and who doesn't get ANY benefits. If you travel and stay at a hotel, your room is usually cleaned by women whose wages don't exactly mitigate having to lift heavy mattresses and clean many more rooms than should be expected and push heavy carts, and your safety is ensured by security guards who don't get benefits or a living wage. Union membership in the US comprises less than 15% of workers' jobs. It's irrational to beat unions per se. It's also irrational to claim that bus drivers have more onerous jobs than other workers.

ANY county worker's benefits are huge compared to benefits in the private sector, except for CEOs. Government jobs are great as far as benefits; private sector jobs aren't. Union supporter though I am, I don't see why it would be sacrereligious or anti-union to review the County wage and benefit structure for all workers, not just transit employees. Every private for-profit (and non-profit) employer has certainly done so.

Good job, everyone who either hates or loves unions, to take your feelings, wrap them around sticks, flavor them with a little agist/sexist ad hominem, and beat Erica with them. Why don't you beat a male writer once in a while? But that doesn't feel as satisfying, does it.

Compare bus drivers' union wages with the wages of hotel workers or restaurant workers, many (but not all) of whom belong to unions. Low-wage unions, that is; there's a big difference between different union' wages now. ATU's managed to hang onto generally living wages; SEIU and Unite-HERE have done their best but have not, and they've lost union coverage. As far as difficult jobs go, everytime you go to one of the restaurants lauded in Publicola, you are very possibly eating food cooked by someone who's sick but can't afford to stay home, and who doesn't get ANY benefits. If you travel and stay at a hotel, your room is usually cleaned by women whose wages don't exactly mitigate having to lift heavy mattresses and clean many more rooms than should be expected and push heavy carts, and your safety is ensured by security guards who don't get benefits or a living wage. Union membership in the US comprises less than 15% of workers' jobs. It's irrational to beat unions per se. It's also irrational to claim that bus drivers have more onerous jobs than other workers.

ANY county worker's benefits are huge compared to benefits in the private sector, except for CEOs. Government jobs are great as far as benefits; private sector jobs aren't. Union supporter though I am, I don't see why it would be sacrereligious or anti-union to review the County wage and benefit structure for all workers, not just transit employees. Every private for-profit (and non-profit) employer has certainly done so.

Dear One and All,

Hourly wage and benefit costs are only one way to look at Metro costs.
Performance parameters, for both drivers and the entire system; liability costs, miles driven, customers carried, customer complaints and compliments, accident issues and costs, insurance etc. etc.

Sure, no taxpayer wants to overpay. But nothing is clearer in this world, than the fact that you get what you pay for.

There is nothing wrong with having well paid drivers, especially if they're the best. I don't regularly ride METRO, and I've never seen a service audit, so I couldn't say one way of the other.

MacDonald raises some legitimate issues, but he certainly made ZERO
progress when he supervised the State Ferries – and he did a lousy job
re: replacing worn out boats and equipment, containing costs or satisfying customers.

I would be slow to set him up on a pedestal.

Dear One and All,

Hourly wage and benefit costs are only one way to look at Metro costs.
Performance parameters, for both drivers and the entire system; liability costs, miles driven, customers carried, customer complaints and compliments, accident issues and costs, insurance etc. etc.

Sure, no taxpayer wants to overpay. But nothing is clearer in this world, than the fact that you get what you pay for.

There is nothing wrong with having well paid drivers, especially if they're the best. I don't regularly ride METRO, and I've never seen a service audit, so I couldn't say one way of the other.

MacDonald raises some legitimate issues, but he certainly made ZERO
progress when he supervised the State Ferries – and he did a lousy job
re: replacing worn out boats and equipment, containing costs or satisfying customers.

I would be slow to set him up on a pedestal.

How is demanding the labor of medical professionals a right, since you don't
feel they deserve to earn a living? Do they have no rights except to
provide health care services on demand for other people? Sounds like only
some humans have rights while others get to be a permanent servant class
under your logic.

Health insurance is not health care, btw. What we have under the current
system(s) is mostly prepaid health care, not true health insurance against
catastrophic health events. Needless to say, it's a ridiculously
inefficient way to provide health care services or actual insurance against
catastrophe.

Interesting that you think driving a bus deserves a very high wage, but
providing medical care must be done on demand, and nobody should have to
'pay a penny' for that far more life-saving set of services.

How is demanding the labor of medical professionals a right, since you don't
feel they deserve to earn a living? Do they have no rights except to
provide health care services on demand for other people? Sounds like only
some humans have rights while others get to be a permanent servant class
under your logic.

Health insurance is not health care, btw. What we have under the current
system(s) is mostly prepaid health care, not true health insurance against
catastrophic health events. Needless to say, it's a ridiculously
inefficient way to provide health care services or actual insurance against
catastrophe.

Interesting that you think driving a bus deserves a very high wage, but
providing medical care must be done on demand, and nobody should have to
'pay a penny' for that far more life-saving set of services.

Since they are overpaid in many major metro areas regardless of behaviour
(no accountability comes with those plush union wages and benefits), they
don't appear to improve their attitudes and still scream for more money that
isn't actually available.

Since they are overpaid in many major metro areas regardless of behaviour
(no accountability comes with those plush union wages and benefits), they
don't appear to improve their attitudes and still scream for more money that
isn't actually available.

This is a disgusting article. Since when is good paying, above average paying, etc. a bad thing? Most of this country's wage decreases have come from the blue collar workforce over the last 30 years with attacks on benefits and wages among unionized employees. Those well paid workers made this country's middle class and laid the foundation for any prosperity left.

Instead of addressing the true root causes of the metro crisis we get this trash of a screed saying the problem is they need to make concessions so more people can be paid like Starbucks baristas? Because that obviously is the solution to reduced service and its the workers responsibility to subsidize the voters' and politicians' stupidity on public funding.

I think ECB should work for free, because I want more news and people don't like paying for it anymore. Cut Her Pay! and provide me more service. Why? because some bloggers will do this for free.

This is a disgusting article. Since when is good paying, above average paying, etc. a bad thing? Most of this country's wage decreases have come from the blue collar workforce over the last 30 years with attacks on benefits and wages among unionized employees. Those well paid workers made this country's middle class and laid the foundation for any prosperity left.

Instead of addressing the true root causes of the metro crisis we get this trash of a screed saying the problem is they need to make concessions so more people can be paid like Starbucks baristas? Because that obviously is the solution to reduced service and its the workers responsibility to subsidize the voters' and politicians' stupidity on public funding.

I think ECB should work for free, because I want more news and people don't like paying for it anymore. Cut Her Pay! and provide me more service. Why? because some bloggers will do this for free.

This is a total red herring blaming Metro's problems on the living wages of bus drivers. Some CAN actually afford to live in Seattle with their families because they are paid a decent wage.

I will be sorry if transit advocates start down this path rather than looking at other important issues. First and foremost, for example, we need to replace the current service allocation (aka 40-40-20) system with one that actually makes sense by aligning Metro transit bus service where we have (and plan for) the greatest jobs and housing density.

This is a total red herring blaming Metro's problems on the living wages of bus drivers. Some CAN actually afford to live in Seattle with their families because they are paid a decent wage.

I will be sorry if transit advocates start down this path rather than looking at other important issues. First and foremost, for example, we need to replace the current service allocation (aka 40-40-20) system with one that actually makes sense by aligning Metro transit bus service where we have (and plan for) the greatest jobs and housing density.

Your logic is ridiculous. Other people's wages suck so people who have less sucky wages should average down their suckiness? We're not talking about CEO wages. $30 an hour is not that much.

Your logic is ridiculous. Other people's wages suck so people who have less sucky wages should average down their suckiness? We're not talking about CEO wages. $30 an hour is not that much.

Have you ever considered that perhaps you should stop projecting your own failings onto others?

Have you ever considered that perhaps you should stop projecting your own failings onto others?

If by “not that much” you mean $62k/yr, then you're right.

If by “not that much” you mean $62k/yr, then you're right.

Comparing Metro drivers to service workers is comparing apples to oranges.

As Brian stated, just because people who work in a for-profit industry that has a relatively slim profit margin (this also includes pilots and flight attendants) and don't make a lot of money, or have good benefits, is no reason for people who work in the public sector to dumb down their wages and benefits.

Realistically, my experience is that the only private sector workforce that could be considered “underpaid”, and doesn't have benefits, are service workers, specifically in the hotel industry, restaurants, and housekeeping in high rises. Manufacturing has seen a decrease in income and benefits, sure, but is still better than most service jobs. Perhaps you are an expert, however, and can correct me being wrong, based on your statement, regarding this issue?

Also, beating up on Josh is just as fun, just more difficult to do. A bit more reporting, and a lot less pontificating (not that I mind Erica's pontificating, especially in “The 'C' is for Crank”). This is being passed off as a news story, and, as noted numerous times, comes off as a conservative, anti-union, anti-good pay and benefits piece.

Comparing Metro drivers to service workers is comparing apples to oranges.

As Brian stated, just because people who work in a for-profit industry that has a relatively slim profit margin (this also includes pilots and flight attendants) and don't make a lot of money, or have good benefits, is no reason for people who work in the public sector to dumb down their wages and benefits.

Realistically, my experience is that the only private sector workforce that could be considered “underpaid”, and doesn't have benefits, are service workers, specifically in the hotel industry, restaurants, and housekeeping in high rises. Manufacturing has seen a decrease in income and benefits, sure, but is still better than most service jobs. Perhaps you are an expert, however, and can correct me being wrong, based on your statement, regarding this issue?

Also, beating up on Josh is just as fun, just more difficult to do. A bit more reporting, and a lot less pontificating (not that I mind Erica's pontificating, especially in “The 'C' is for Crank”). This is being passed off as a news story, and, as noted numerous times, comes off as a conservative, anti-union, anti-good pay and benefits piece.

Please explain how everyone can make 60k per year minimum without the cost
of goods increasing exponentially.

This debate is so falsely framed as though the golden wages of metro drivers
come from a magical money tree with no external costs. Public-union
employees are the only ones who do a crap job, can't get fired, and have
tons of defenders justifying their wildly inflated salaries and COLAs and
benefits.

60k is more than most of the country makes, and most people in the rest of
the country can actually afford to buy houses and send their kids to decent
schools on 30-40k/year . The metro drivers here are demonstrably overpaid
for under-work.

Please explain how everyone can make 60k per year minimum without the cost
of goods increasing exponentially.

This debate is so falsely framed as though the golden wages of metro drivers
come from a magical money tree with no external costs. Public-union
employees are the only ones who do a crap job, can't get fired, and have
tons of defenders justifying their wildly inflated salaries and COLAs and
benefits.

60k is more than most of the country makes, and most people in the rest of
the country can actually afford to buy houses and send their kids to decent
schools on 30-40k/year . The metro drivers here are demonstrably overpaid
for under-work.

I do think we have to pay for health care. It should be paid for through taxes and provided to everyone free of charge through a national, universal, excellent health care system. However, since special interests have prevented such a system from arising, in the mean time I support public employees getting great benefits from their employers.

I do think we have to pay for health care. It should be paid for through taxes and provided to everyone free of charge through a national, universal, excellent health care system. However, since special interests have prevented such a system from arising, in the mean time I support public employees getting great benefits from their employers.

The cost of living in Seattle is considerably higher than in most of the country. $40K/year in Topeka goes a lot farther than $40K/year in Seattle.

The cost of living in Seattle is considerably higher than in most of the country. $40K/year in Topeka goes a lot farther than $40K/year in Seattle.

Well actually most reporters work for less than Metro drivers.

The median expected salary for a typical Reporter II in the United States is $37,868. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies..

Those well paid workers made this country's middle class and laid the foundation for any prosperity left. .

Much of the prosperity higher paid union workers enjoyed was from the exploitation of minorities, women and the third world.

Instead of addressing the true root causes of the metro crisis we get this trash of a screed saying the problem is they need to make concessions so more people can be paid like Starbucks baristas? Because that obviously is the solution to reduced service and its the workers responsibility to subsidize the voters' and politicians' stupidity on public funding..

Okay, what the above means is surely hard to guess, but it is clear that Brian doesn't actually address the issue. Perhaps, the trade unions should drop their support for the tunnel and other big ticket mega-projects.

Well actually most reporters work for less than Metro drivers.

The median expected salary for a typical Reporter II in the United States is $37,868. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies..

Those well paid workers made this country's middle class and laid the foundation for any prosperity left. .

Much of the prosperity higher paid union workers enjoyed was from the exploitation of minorities, women and the third world.

Instead of addressing the true root causes of the metro crisis we get this trash of a screed saying the problem is they need to make concessions so more people can be paid like Starbucks baristas? Because that obviously is the solution to reduced service and its the workers responsibility to subsidize the voters' and politicians' stupidity on public funding..

Okay, what the above means is surely hard to guess, but it is clear that Brian doesn't actually address the issue. Perhaps, the trade unions should drop their support for the tunnel and other big ticket mega-projects.

Straw man – nobody is talking about Topeka. Seattle is above average but not near the top.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/…

Cutting service hurts the poorest. Our taxing options hurt the poor.

If they were making $30, $40 or more per hour the union advocates would still be screaming that they deserved it. No one here has said drop their pay to $10 or $15 per hour. The point MacDonald made is that at 65% of the costs, labor is about the only place that significant savings can be had to save service. As others have pointed out, the top earners will retain their jobs when service is cut and the hardest put to will the youngest most vulnerable drivers – but hey to hell with them, right?

Currently, Metro is subsidized about $400 per capita, every woman, man and child contributes $400 to keep Metro running. That doesn't include funds going to Sound Transit's Link, the ferries or any other transit system.

Straw man – nobody is talking about Topeka. Seattle is above average but not near the top.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/…

Cutting service hurts the poorest. Our taxing options hurt the poor.

If they were making $30, $40 or more per hour the union advocates would still be screaming that they deserved it. No one here has said drop their pay to $10 or $15 per hour. The point MacDonald made is that at 65% of the costs, labor is about the only place that significant savings can be had to save service. As others have pointed out, the top earners will retain their jobs when service is cut and the hardest put to will the youngest most vulnerable drivers – but hey to hell with them, right?

Currently, Metro is subsidized about $400 per capita, every woman, man and child contributes $400 to keep Metro running. That doesn't include funds going to Sound Transit's Link, the ferries or any other transit system.

Then we should be raising the subsidies and taxes to support them instead of chopping living wages salaries. There is an option to cutting services, pay or benefits: raising revenues. We pay really low taxes for a developed nation, and yet we expect great things in return.

Then we should be raising the subsidies and taxes to support them instead of chopping living wages salaries. There is an option to cutting services, pay or benefits: raising revenues. We pay really low taxes for a developed nation, and yet we expect great things in return.

There is a huge part of this that you are completely ignoring – the nearly $30/hr is for the highest paid employees. It takes years to get to the top. Most drivers are not at the top, and quite a bit of the work is done by part-time drivers.

A, dare I say it, fair and balanced story would include the current step system, an explanation of how many years of service between steps, and show how many drivers have enough hours to qualify for all of the benefits that they receive.

Finally, you can't compare wages here with the rest of the country in a general sense. While people can afford to live in good neighborhoods and have their kids in good schools for 30-40k a year in many parts of the country, that is not the case in King/Pierce/Snohomish Counties.

We pay our drivers well because they provide a valuable service to our community. We actually have a pretty good transit system in our region, and a big part of why it functions as well as it does is we have good coach operators. We have good operators because we pay them enough so that they can afford to live here and be blue collar workers in our county.

Just bitching about the wages because it's easy to beat up on the county government and unions while ignoring and, even worse, not presenting the entire set of data (ie: only pointing out what the highest salary is, ignoring how many part time workers there are, not discussing the schedules, what the operators endure) is poor reporting, and poor pontificating. I expect this from Glen Beck, not Erica Barnett.

There is a huge part of this that you are completely ignoring – the nearly $30/hr is for the highest paid employees. It takes years to get to the top. Most drivers are not at the top, and quite a bit of the work is done by part-time drivers.

A, dare I say it, fair and balanced story would include the current step system, an explanation of how many years of service between steps, and show how many drivers have enough hours to qualify for all of the benefits that they receive.

Finally, you can't compare wages here with the rest of the country in a general sense. While people can afford to live in good neighborhoods and have their kids in good schools for 30-40k a year in many parts of the country, that is not the case in King/Pierce/Snohomish Counties.

We pay our drivers well because they provide a valuable service to our community. We actually have a pretty good transit system in our region, and a big part of why it functions as well as it does is we have good coach operators. We have good operators because we pay them enough so that they can afford to live here and be blue collar workers in our county.

Just bitching about the wages because it's easy to beat up on the county government and unions while ignoring and, even worse, not presenting the entire set of data (ie: only pointing out what the highest salary is, ignoring how many part time workers there are, not discussing the schedules, what the operators endure) is poor reporting, and poor pontificating. I expect this from Glen Beck, not Erica Barnett.

Please find a link to a book relevant to the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Plunder-Employee-Treasuri…

Please find a link to a book relevant to the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Plunder-Employee-Treasuri…

That isn't really that much. That seems like a decent wage that will help you to comfortably raise a family. If you have a couple kids and a mortgage, along with dreams of being able to retire reasonably at some point that's not out of this world.

That isn't really that much. That seems like a decent wage that will help you to comfortably raise a family. If you have a couple kids and a mortgage, along with dreams of being able to retire reasonably at some point that's not out of this world.

A mortgage? You're only considering people who have had a good enough financial past to own houses? Come on, what world are you living in? $30/hour and $67/year ARE that much. Try living on $10/hour with no benefits and see how comfortably you can raise a family.

And yes, if Metro workers contribute a bit more toward their health insurance benefits, etc. and thus Metro doesn't raise fares so often (which are paid by people who make all sorts of wages, including $10/hour), then yeah, I think that's fair. Unless you want a completely laissez-faire economy, and then you'd have to hope that you and everyone you care about would be on the $30/hour side of the fence, wouldn't you.

A mortgage? You're only considering people who have had a good enough financial past to own houses? Come on, what world are you living in? $30/hour and $67/year ARE that much. Try living on $10/hour with no benefits and see how comfortably you can raise a family.

And yes, if Metro workers contribute a bit more toward their health insurance benefits, etc. and thus Metro doesn't raise fares so often (which are paid by people who make all sorts of wages, including $10/hour), then yeah, I think that's fair. Unless you want a completely laissez-faire economy, and then you'd have to hope that you and everyone you care about would be on the $30/hour side of the fence, wouldn't you.

Check out the profits that big hotel corporations make some time. Most of them are multinationals. Slim profit margin my foot.

Check out the profits that big hotel corporations make some time. Most of them are multinationals. Slim profit margin my foot.

Why do you read Erica's articles then, Brian? Do you expect a news blog to provide philosophical discussions of societal problems? Do you think you can do better? Are YOU the blogger who wants to do it for free?

Why do you read Erica's articles then, Brian? Do you expect a news blog to provide philosophical discussions of societal problems? Do you think you can do better? Are YOU the blogger who wants to do it for free?

Thank you. Best post on this thread.

Thank you. Best post on this thread.

Where will the tax money come from if it's all going to pay public employees
massive salaries? You can't have both.

Where will the tax money come from if it's all going to pay public employees
massive salaries? You can't have both.

It's not the case here because King County disproportionately has higher
regulatory costs, including overpaying its government employees. Outside of
King County, even in the rest of the state, smaller incomes provide good
standards of living. The whining that 30k is not good enough is entirely
the result of government regulations that keep costs in this area overpriced
needlessly. The transit system is pretty bad, actually, even accounting for
the problems of landscape and topography.

It's not the case here because King County disproportionately has higher
regulatory costs, including overpaying its government employees. Outside of
King County, even in the rest of the state, smaller incomes provide good
standards of living. The whining that 30k is not good enough is entirely
the result of government regulations that keep costs in this area overpriced
needlessly. The transit system is pretty bad, actually, even accounting for
the problems of landscape and topography.

We pay a fortune in taxes. 40%+ tax burdens are not 'really low'.

We pay a fortune in taxes. 40%+ tax burdens are not 'really low'.

Where.will.the.tax.money.come.from.if.it.is.all.going.to.pay.public.employee.salaries.

Where.will.the.tax.money.come.from.if.it.is.all.going.to.pay.public.employee.salaries.

None of those things happen with public sector unions. Bias and caprice remain in any work environment, unionized or not. It's just way harder to get fired for being capricious and biased with a sweet union contract.

None of those things happen with public sector unions. Bias and caprice remain in any work environment, unionized or not. It's just way harder to get fired for being capricious and biased with a sweet union contract.

Given that the median salary is around what these bus drivers are raking in, you are falsely representing family life in Seattle. Many families somehow, mysteriously, manage to live in Seattle on far less than 60k/year.

Given that the median salary is around what these bus drivers are raking in, you are falsely representing family life in Seattle. Many families somehow, mysteriously, manage to live in Seattle on far less than 60k/year.

Hmm, don't see you arguing that CEOs for private companies deserve their massive paychecks because they've done a 'good job at negotiating good contracts'. Interesting.

Hmm, don't see you arguing that CEOs for private companies deserve their massive paychecks because they've done a 'good job at negotiating good contracts'. Interesting.

I don't understand this meme that we can all make 60k/year and see no increase in the cost of housing, goods, or services. Oh, and that the solution to any governmental budget problem is 'more taxes' because that is working out so well for Europe.

I don't understand this meme that we can all make 60k/year and see no increase in the cost of housing, goods, or services. Oh, and that the solution to any governmental budget problem is 'more taxes' because that is working out so well for Europe.

Really? None? Wow. Do you speak from personal experience for all 73 unions and the thousands of organized employees in King County? Any actual facts to, I dunno, back up your firm opinions?

I am just aksing because I could swear that your anti union rhetoric sounds so much like bitterness at not being covered under one of those “sweet” union contracts.

Me think the lady doth protest too much?

Really? None? Wow. Do you speak from personal experience for all 73 unions and the thousands of organized employees in King County? Any actual facts to, I dunno, back up your firm opinions?

I am just aksing because I could swear that your anti union rhetoric sounds so much like bitterness at not being covered under one of those “sweet” union contracts.

Me think the lady doth protest too much?

“Outrageous advantage taking?” So, if other employers do not provided similar benefits it would be okay? Sad “logic”.

“Outrageous advantage taking?” So, if other employers do not provided similar benefits it would be okay? Sad “logic”.

I would argue the exact same thing. While some CEO's for major corporations make as much as they do because of performance, others, such as Carly Fiorina (during her HP stint), manage to negotiate massive compensation packages prior to actually doing any real work. The ones that continue to have massive increases over time receive those because of performance.

I would argue the exact same thing. While some CEO's for major corporations make as much as they do because of performance, others, such as Carly Fiorina (during her HP stint), manage to negotiate massive compensation packages prior to actually doing any real work. The ones that continue to have massive increases over time receive those because of performance.

when we consider josh's incessant parroting of right wing lies blaming teachers for the systemic failures in education, instead of the well paid bosses steering the boat onto the rocks,

it makes sense that erica is a fellow traveler.

when we look at all the local “journalists” who've turned into 6 figure a year messaging flacks, helping our pathetic “leaders” spew excuses for for their pathetic “leadership” against rapacious aristocrats

it will make perfect sense when josh and erica graduate to the big leagues of well paid liars.

robert murphy.

when we consider josh's incessant parroting of right wing lies blaming teachers for the systemic failures in education, instead of the well paid bosses steering the boat onto the rocks,

it makes sense that erica is a fellow traveler.

when we look at all the local “journalists” who've turned into 6 figure a year messaging flacks, helping our pathetic “leaders” spew excuses for for their pathetic “leadership” against rapacious aristocrats

it will make perfect sense when josh and erica graduate to the big leagues of well paid liars.

robert murphy.

You nailed it, Bob. Josh and Erica are on the direct route to Joni Balter status.

You nailed it, Bob. Josh and Erica are on the direct route to Joni Balter status.

Yes, it's impossible to envision a way to run Metro more efficiently and achieve a 5% gain in riders per hour of bus service. Metro is alreay operating at 100% efficiency. There's nothing we can do but cut service or raise taxes.

Yes, it's impossible to envision a way to run Metro more efficiently and achieve a 5% gain in riders per hour of bus service. Metro is alreay operating at 100% efficiency. There's nothing we can do but cut service or raise taxes.

that's right, if they make $20 an hour, it should be more. If they make $25 an hour it should be more. If they make $28 an hour it should be more. If they make $30 an hour it hsould be more. They should have decency. And anyone who challenges it is anti human rights! There is to be NO DISCUSSION OF GOVERNMENT WORKER WAGES, EVER!!

that's right, if they make $20 an hour, it should be more. If they make $25 an hour it should be more. If they make $28 an hour it should be more. If they make $30 an hour it hsould be more. They should have decency. And anyone who challenges it is anti human rights! There is to be NO DISCUSSION OF GOVERNMENT WORKER WAGES, EVER!!

How is it not working out so well for Europe? They seem a lot better off than we are….

How is it not working out so well for Europe? They seem a lot better off than we are….

Where are your facts that unions do the things you're asserting they do?

Where are your facts that unions do the things you're asserting they do?

Yeah, trillion dollar bailout of Greece, austerity measures in big-dog countries like Germany and France and little-dog countries like Portugal (austerity measures= cutting government salaries and social welfare services) and plans to exit or disband the Euro as it plummets daily.

Totally working out for them, all those cuts and reductions of their large welfare states funded with massive debt and huge tax burdens.

Yeah, trillion dollar bailout of Greece, austerity measures in big-dog countries like Germany and France and little-dog countries like Portugal (austerity measures= cutting government salaries and social welfare services) and plans to exit or disband the Euro as it plummets daily.

Totally working out for them, all those cuts and reductions of their large welfare states funded with massive debt and huge tax burdens.

Bollards Ivan – they are seeking Sandeep status or maybe Robert Mack or Postman or …

Bollards Ivan – they are seeking Sandeep status or maybe Robert Mack or Postman or …

“Much of the prosperity higher paid union workers enjoyed was from the exploitation of minorities, women and the third world. “

Huh? That's a whole lot of retarded, dressed up with some big words. Care to try to explain that one?

“Much of the prosperity higher paid union workers enjoyed was from the exploitation of minorities, women and the third world. “

Huh? That's a whole lot of retarded, dressed up with some big words. Care to try to explain that one?

They were taken advantage of by the multinational investment banks, abetted by conservative politicians. That's what has caused this crisis.

But that's probably too complex of a concept for you to grasp. Somebody on TV told you that it was the fault of the “welfare state”, and you believed them. You repeat it now because you think it makes you look smart.

They were taken advantage of by the multinational investment banks, abetted by conservative politicians. That's what has caused this crisis.

But that's probably too complex of a concept for you to grasp. Somebody on TV told you that it was the fault of the “welfare state”, and you believed them. You repeat it now because you think it makes you look smart.

Uh-oh, I think someone's a little jealous……..

It's not the union's fault that you can't hold a job. Maybe you just need to work a little harder at the jobs you do get.

Uh-oh, I think someone's a little jealous……..

It's not the union's fault that you can't hold a job. Maybe you just need to work a little harder at the jobs you do get.

Why all the focus of cutting wages for frontline workers? Why no focus on the wages and benefits of the bloated, overpaid, redundant management and administrators at top-heavy King County? Where is the examination of how supervisor, management, and administrator salaries and compensation packages stack up? WHERE IS IT???

Want to save some real money right away? START AT THE TOP:
The $100K Club
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

Why all the focus of cutting wages for frontline workers? Why no focus on the wages and benefits of the bloated, overpaid, redundant management and administrators at top-heavy King County? Where is the examination of how supervisor, management, and administrator salaries and compensation packages stack up? WHERE IS IT???

Want to save some real money right away? START AT THE TOP:
The $100K Club
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

Bingo. Where is the examination of salary and compensation packages of supervisors, managers and administrators – many of whom earn over $100K per year, and are NON-UNION?

Why all the focus on frontline workers?

http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

Bingo. Where is the examination of salary and compensation packages of supervisors, managers and administrators – many of whom earn over $100K per year, and are NON-UNION?

Why all the focus on frontline workers?

http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

wibbles,

“Hmm, don't see you arguing that CEOs for private companies deserve their massive paychecks because they've done a 'good job at negotiating good contracts'.”

Hmm. Don't see YOU arguing that they DON'T deserve their massive paychecks because they're higher than similar jobs in other cities either.

Nor do I see Publicola.net, Crosscut, or other faux “journalists” doing any kind of examination of the salaries and benefits packages of supervisors, managers and administrators at King County, and how THEY stack up. 100% of the focus is on the blue-collar frontline worker.

Why is that?

Want to save some real money in King County government?

START AT THE TOP
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

wibbles,

“Hmm, don't see you arguing that CEOs for private companies deserve their massive paychecks because they've done a 'good job at negotiating good contracts'.”

Hmm. Don't see YOU arguing that they DON'T deserve their massive paychecks because they're higher than similar jobs in other cities either.

Nor do I see Publicola.net, Crosscut, or other faux “journalists” doing any kind of examination of the salaries and benefits packages of supervisors, managers and administrators at King County, and how THEY stack up. 100% of the focus is on the blue-collar frontline worker.

Why is that?

Want to save some real money in King County government?

START AT THE TOP
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

I am a bus driver. I announce stops, do my best to be on-time (buses don't fly, you know – there's such a thing as traffic, obstacles, high passenger loads, construction, etc.), and damn well earn every dollar I'm paid.

It's a shame you have a negative view of bus drivers. After a 20 year career working with nonprofits, I – like many of my colleagues – came to the profession at mid-life. We come in all shapes and sizes, all cultural backgrounds, and all levels of education. The person behind the wheel of that bus you're riding just might be a schoolteacher, a father, a mother, a neighbor – and/or a college graduate with a higher-level degree.

They are some of the finest people that I've ever worked with.

So your sweeping negative generalization says a lot more about you than it says about any bus driver, certainly about all bus drivers. You're ignorant.

Just for comparison's sake “giffy” – what is it that YOU do for a living?

I am a bus driver. I announce stops, do my best to be on-time (buses don't fly, you know – there's such a thing as traffic, obstacles, high passenger loads, construction, etc.), and damn well earn every dollar I'm paid.

It's a shame you have a negative view of bus drivers. After a 20 year career working with nonprofits, I – like many of my colleagues – came to the profession at mid-life. We come in all shapes and sizes, all cultural backgrounds, and all levels of education. The person behind the wheel of that bus you're riding just might be a schoolteacher, a father, a mother, a neighbor – and/or a college graduate with a higher-level degree.

They are some of the finest people that I've ever worked with.

So your sweeping negative generalization says a lot more about you than it says about any bus driver, certainly about all bus drivers. You're ignorant.

Just for comparison's sake “giffy” – what is it that YOU do for a living?

“Not having to pay a penny of their own premiums is hardly 'decent
benefits'”

Part time operators who work under 4 hours per day (there's several hundred of those) pay a substantial portion towards their premiums. All King County employees have out of pocket expenses, deductibles, and copays.

My plan with King County as a bus driver is Group Health. It is identical to the plan I had when I worked at a nonprofit organization 2 years ago. I didn't pay towards my premiums there. Lots of people don't.

Bus drivers aren't overpaid. They're not wealthy either. No brick mansions in Magnolia for bus drivers.

My Grandfather drove for Metro for 43 years, signing on after returning from World War 2. Over the years he was able to save enough for a comfortable (though not opulent) retirement. He banked ever dollar of overtime. He budgeted. He bought CD's and saved every penny. For years, he worked his ass off, and damn well got the retirement he both deserved and earned.

With a little luck, dedication, and hard work in the same profession, I may do a fraction as well as I became a driver 20 years later than he did.

If being a bus driver is such an all-fired great deal – I suggest you try it, and quit whining.

What is it that you do for a living again?

“Not having to pay a penny of their own premiums is hardly 'decent
benefits'”

Part time operators who work under 4 hours per day (there's several hundred of those) pay a substantial portion towards their premiums. All King County employees have out of pocket expenses, deductibles, and copays.

My plan with King County as a bus driver is Group Health. It is identical to the plan I had when I worked at a nonprofit organization 2 years ago. I didn't pay towards my premiums there. Lots of people don't.

Bus drivers aren't overpaid. They're not wealthy either. No brick mansions in Magnolia for bus drivers.

My Grandfather drove for Metro for 43 years, signing on after returning from World War 2. Over the years he was able to save enough for a comfortable (though not opulent) retirement. He banked ever dollar of overtime. He budgeted. He bought CD's and saved every penny. For years, he worked his ass off, and damn well got the retirement he both deserved and earned.

With a little luck, dedication, and hard work in the same profession, I may do a fraction as well as I became a driver 20 years later than he did.

If being a bus driver is such an all-fired great deal – I suggest you try it, and quit whining.

What is it that you do for a living again?

“There is to be NO DISCUSSION OF GOVERNMENT WORKER WAGES, EVER!! “

Oh horse shit. Get a grip.

“There is to be NO DISCUSSION OF GOVERNMENT WORKER WAGES, EVER!! “

Oh horse shit. Get a grip.

Erica,

You guys *are* publishing on the heels of the Crosscut article – and frankly doing a worse job of re-stating the same thing. This entire article darn near smacks of plagiarism.

At any rate – your lazy reporting and uncorrected omissions in past articles stand as precedent. For example, you once wrote about “Cadillac health plans”, providing a link to only ONE such plan, completely omitting the others like Group Health.

What is disingenuous is your lazy reporting, your failure to correct the record when your omissions and errors are pointed out to you – and frankly your contined bandwagon-style focus on frontline workers and anti-union rhetoric that's being spoon-fed to you by the Powers that Be. Your internship as Yellow Journalist appears to be paying off, as your reporting is pulling the same SeattleTimes-esque selective quotations and biased focus serves not the issue of journalistic integrity, but biased propanda.

Still waiting for that big expose on supervisor, manager, and administrator salaries (many over $100K and many non-union) and how THEY stack up with other cities.

I won't hold my breath.

Erica,

You guys *are* publishing on the heels of the Crosscut article – and frankly doing a worse job of re-stating the same thing. This entire article darn near smacks of plagiarism.

At any rate – your lazy reporting and uncorrected omissions in past articles stand as precedent. For example, you once wrote about “Cadillac health plans”, providing a link to only ONE such plan, completely omitting the others like Group Health.

What is disingenuous is your lazy reporting, your failure to correct the record when your omissions and errors are pointed out to you – and frankly your contined bandwagon-style focus on frontline workers and anti-union rhetoric that's being spoon-fed to you by the Powers that Be. Your internship as Yellow Journalist appears to be paying off, as your reporting is pulling the same SeattleTimes-esque selective quotations and biased focus serves not the issue of journalistic integrity, but biased propanda.

Still waiting for that big expose on supervisor, manager, and administrator salaries (many over $100K and many non-union) and how THEY stack up with other cities.

I won't hold my breath.

“”The top wage for a driver at Metro is $28.47 an hour”. Okay, that's the top wage. What is the starting wage?”

When I began training, the training wage was minimum wage – at the time, $8.12 an hour. Once qualified, the first tier is just over $19.00 an hour, with no raise until the Operator begins their third year. Drivers don't accrue vacation time until they start their second year, and can't take any vacation time until they begin their third year. That's 2 years with no paid vacation time, and no raise.

All bus drivers start out as part-time Operators, with a guarantee of only 2.5 hours per day of work. It can take several years for a part-time Operator to go full-time, depeding on how many full-time vacancies occur. I have been waiting for over 2 years to go full-time. The current service period, have only 3.5 hours a day of guaranteed work. Next shakup I will have 6 hours and 18 minutes – working a split shift. I will go to work at 7am, drive for 1 hour and 15 minutes, go home, then return to work for a 5 hour shift, ending at 8pm.

Working conditions – even for full-time Operators – can be harsh, from customer issues to brutal schedules that allow little time with family, multiple commutes, and health problems.

Lots more info at http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com

“”The top wage for a driver at Metro is $28.47 an hour”. Okay, that's the top wage. What is the starting wage?”

When I began training, the training wage was minimum wage – at the time, $8.12 an hour. Once qualified, the first tier is just over $19.00 an hour, with no raise until the Operator begins their third year. Drivers don't accrue vacation time until they start their second year, and can't take any vacation time until they begin their third year. That's 2 years with no paid vacation time, and no raise.

All bus drivers start out as part-time Operators, with a guarantee of only 2.5 hours per day of work. It can take several years for a part-time Operator to go full-time, depeding on how many full-time vacancies occur. I have been waiting for over 2 years to go full-time. The current service period, have only 3.5 hours a day of guaranteed work. Next shakup I will have 6 hours and 18 minutes – working a split shift. I will go to work at 7am, drive for 1 hour and 15 minutes, go home, then return to work for a 5 hour shift, ending at 8pm.

Working conditions – even for full-time Operators – can be harsh, from customer issues to brutal schedules that allow little time with family, multiple commutes, and health problems.

Lots more info at http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com

(applause)

(applause)

wibbles,

What is it that YOU do for a living again?

wibbles,

What is it that YOU do for a living again?

You are arguing against something I'm not even saying. You want people to make less money because there are people who make less than them. I don't want a laissez-faire economy anymore than you, but we should be working to get more for the 10/hr crowd: getting more fare assistance, expanding access, increasing affordable housing etc. not taking away from workers who are paid a decent living wage.

The problem is not the people who make a decent wage. The problem is a system that says its ok to pay crappy wages to anyone and that we can ignore building a public infrastructure to support the entire population. The people you reference should have healthcare benefits just like the metro workers, not the metro workers should have benefits (or lack there of) like the service workers and others you describe.

If your fight is that some people can't afford the increases maybe you should focus your anger somewhere where it addresses the root cause, the enormous funding gap. But know its probably easier to fight amongst ourselves while the wealthy and powerful laugh at the uncoordinated masses.

You are arguing against something I'm not even saying. You want people to make less money because there are people who make less than them. I don't want a laissez-faire economy anymore than you, but we should be working to get more for the 10/hr crowd: getting more fare assistance, expanding access, increasing affordable housing etc. not taking away from workers who are paid a decent living wage.

The problem is not the people who make a decent wage. The problem is a system that says its ok to pay crappy wages to anyone and that we can ignore building a public infrastructure to support the entire population. The people you reference should have healthcare benefits just like the metro workers, not the metro workers should have benefits (or lack there of) like the service workers and others you describe.

If your fight is that some people can't afford the increases maybe you should focus your anger somewhere where it addresses the root cause, the enormous funding gap. But know its probably easier to fight amongst ourselves while the wealthy and powerful laugh at the uncoordinated masses.

(applause)

(applause)

Huh? I expect a news blog to do a couple things: inform the public, and do so responsibly. This article was irresponsible, and frankly was more commentary than news. So I challenged the post much like a letter to the editor would a print article.

Am I a blogger who wants to do it for free? no, but I don't see your point. I was building something I call an analogy to her commentary, which is of course ridiculous. ECB should get paid for her work, and largely I appreciate what she writes, but this one sucked.

Huh? I expect a news blog to do a couple things: inform the public, and do so responsibly. This article was irresponsible, and frankly was more commentary than news. So I challenged the post much like a letter to the editor would a print article.

Am I a blogger who wants to do it for free? no, but I don't see your point. I was building something I call an analogy to her commentary, which is of course ridiculous. ECB should get paid for her work, and largely I appreciate what she writes, but this one sucked.

If you want to attack union support for some of these road mega projects be my guest. I think that is the biggest gap that needs to be bridged (between the green left and the union left). But that is not what this article does, it attacks decently paid union workers because they get paid decently.

The rest of your post is largely meaningless to me. Maybe Journalists should fight for better pay, I'm not opposed. And how union labor is responsible for what you mention is ridiculous. Union labor is a root towards a solution to many of those issues. But you obviously aren't here to actually discuss that.

If you want to attack union support for some of these road mega projects be my guest. I think that is the biggest gap that needs to be bridged (between the green left and the union left). But that is not what this article does, it attacks decently paid union workers because they get paid decently.

The rest of your post is largely meaningless to me. Maybe Journalists should fight for better pay, I'm not opposed. And how union labor is responsible for what you mention is ridiculous. Union labor is a root towards a solution to many of those issues. But you obviously aren't here to actually discuss that.

Oh, yeah, right. I have nothing better to do than to hold up the loading and unloading by harassing passengers who pay the fare, all because I don't like you, even though I've never seen you before and it's unlikely I will again, and even if I do, I probably won't remember you unless there's something about you that stood out, like not having bathed or washed your clothes for a month.

I confess, I like being late to my terminal so I won't get any break. I prefer to hold it all day and not even take time to grab a quick bite to eat, which even on good days is often hard to do even if you bring your own lunch.

Fact of the matter is many passengers try everything they can to scam the system – re-using old transfers, trying to use an un-funded purse Orca, old expired passes that they just flash real quick, handing off your pass to your friend behind you, or just blatantly walking past the driver and ignoring them, ad nauseum.

Then you turn around and expect us to tackle gunmen, physically evict drunks and other thugs on the bus, have every schedule of every bus memorized and know the best place to shop for your wife.

Add to all that loading and unloading people in wheelchairs, re-routes, rude drivers and bicyclists, heavy traffic, unrealistic schedules, people riding the bus when they're sick, people who don't speak English, etc., etc., etc.

Up until now I haven't given flyin' fart about the fare, but given all the half-truths and cry-baby rants on the radio lately (I hope you're reading this, John Carlson!) maybe now I'll start being a fare nazi. No pay, no ride. Community Transit has conductors that'll write you a ticket for not paying, and they're a small agency. Metro needs them too.

Oh, yeah, right. I have nothing better to do than to hold up the loading and unloading by harassing passengers who pay the fare, all because I don't like you, even though I've never seen you before and it's unlikely I will again, and even if I do, I probably won't remember you unless there's something about you that stood out, like not having bathed or washed your clothes for a month.

I confess, I like being late to my terminal so I won't get any break. I prefer to hold it all day and not even take time to grab a quick bite to eat, which even on good days is often hard to do even if you bring your own lunch.

Fact of the matter is many passengers try everything they can to scam the system – re-using old transfers, trying to use an un-funded purse Orca, old expired passes that they just flash real quick, handing off your pass to your friend behind you, or just blatantly walking past the driver and ignoring them, ad nauseum.

Then you turn around and expect us to tackle gunmen, physically evict drunks and other thugs on the bus, have every schedule of every bus memorized and know the best place to shop for your wife.

Add to all that loading and unloading people in wheelchairs, re-routes, rude drivers and bicyclists, heavy traffic, unrealistic schedules, people riding the bus when they're sick, people who don't speak English, etc., etc., etc.

Up until now I haven't given flyin' fart about the fare, but given all the half-truths and cry-baby rants on the radio lately (I hope you're reading this, John Carlson!) maybe now I'll start being a fare nazi. No pay, no ride. Community Transit has conductors that'll write you a ticket for not paying, and they're a small agency. Metro needs them too.

Erica,

“county workers still don’t have to pay any portion of their premiums”

Which is an outright lie.

Part Time transit operators – hundreds of them – ARE required to pay a portion of their premiums.

I'm sure you'll get right on issuing a correction on that one, much as you failed to do so in your prior article about County health plans that only referenced ONE of the available plans.

Nice journalism there, Barnett.

Erica,

“county workers still don’t have to pay any portion of their premiums”

Which is an outright lie.

Part Time transit operators – hundreds of them – ARE required to pay a portion of their premiums.

I'm sure you'll get right on issuing a correction on that one, much as you failed to do so in your prior article about County health plans that only referenced ONE of the available plans.

Nice journalism there, Barnett.

Once the bus is pulling away from the curb, technically we're not allowed to stop. Some drivers will if they feel it's safe, some won't. We're not sitting there waiting for you, we have a bus full of passengers who managed to get there on time and want to get where they're going, not to mention a schedule to keep.

There are 3 different resources to find the schedule. Printed schedules, (both the hand-outs and the ones posted at the stop), online schedules, and Customer Service. If with those resources you still can't plan your day so that you can be at the stop when you need to be, that's your problem. Don't run up to the bus and start pounding and shouting, all you do is startle the driver and make it unsafe for you and everybody else.

Once the bus is pulling away from the curb, technically we're not allowed to stop. Some drivers will if they feel it's safe, some won't. We're not sitting there waiting for you, we have a bus full of passengers who managed to get there on time and want to get where they're going, not to mention a schedule to keep.

There are 3 different resources to find the schedule. Printed schedules, (both the hand-outs and the ones posted at the stop), online schedules, and Customer Service. If with those resources you still can't plan your day so that you can be at the stop when you need to be, that's your problem. Don't run up to the bus and start pounding and shouting, all you do is startle the driver and make it unsafe for you and everybody else.

The average hourly costs to run a bus is about $140 per hour. Clearly cutting the drivers' wages and benefits won't be able to cut the hourly cost much of a percentage. On the other hand drivers make up a big percentage of total costs and 200 drivers made over $75,000 (2010 News Tribune).

http://www.ntdprogram.gov/ntdprogram/pubs/profi…

Should management receive the same pay cuts? Of course, they should. Should the cuts come from the top down? I think that would be best for the most people.

If MacDonald had suggested primarily cutting management, a different crew of government workers would be here telling us that just can't be done – remember McGinn suggesting that strategic advisors be cut?

The reality is that we will not have a progressive income tax in place in time to fund the various governments' shortfalls.

The average hourly costs to run a bus is about $140 per hour. Clearly cutting the drivers' wages and benefits won't be able to cut the hourly cost much of a percentage. On the other hand drivers make up a big percentage of total costs and 200 drivers made over $75,000 (2010 News Tribune).

http://www.ntdprogram.gov/ntdprogram/pubs/profi…

Should management receive the same pay cuts? Of course, they should. Should the cuts come from the top down? I think that would be best for the most people.

If MacDonald had suggested primarily cutting management, a different crew of government workers would be here telling us that just can't be done – remember McGinn suggesting that strategic advisors be cut?

The reality is that we will not have a progressive income tax in place in time to fund the various governments' shortfalls.

The top earners don't pay and they were the prime focus of MacDonald (and ECB)

The top earners don't pay and they were the prime focus of MacDonald (and ECB)

Sarah68: I read Erica's articles for the same reason that you would gawk at a train wreck. She never disappoints.

Sarah68: I read Erica's articles for the same reason that you would gawk at a train wreck. She never disappoints.

Everyone should make more money. That's only decent. Don't look at the fact that people pay taxes to give the govt. money to pay the govt. employees or that the people paying the taxes are often less well paid than the govt. employees. Because whenyou put another increment of sales tax on a poor slob making $25,000 who gives a fuck, right? What's important is to keep that tax stream coming into govt. so a few select few who happen to be in a govt. job can make $60K a year. shit, there are even people who are unemployed paying that sales tax! But you know what? Tough shit for them! Their fault they didn't get a job, unionize, etc. And you know what else?

If you look at the wages or performance of govt. workers you are a republican scumbag scabby scab scab so there! How dare you oppose decent living wages!

$65K a year for everyone, that's our program, and don't look at costs, output or performance or impact on taxes or on the poor woo hoo!

Everyone should make more money. That's only decent. Don't look at the fact that people pay taxes to give the govt. money to pay the govt. employees or that the people paying the taxes are often less well paid than the govt. employees. Because whenyou put another increment of sales tax on a poor slob making $25,000 who gives a fuck, right? What's important is to keep that tax stream coming into govt. so a few select few who happen to be in a govt. job can make $60K a year. shit, there are even people who are unemployed paying that sales tax! But you know what? Tough shit for them! Their fault they didn't get a job, unionize, etc. And you know what else?

If you look at the wages or performance of govt. workers you are a republican scumbag scabby scab scab so there! How dare you oppose decent living wages!

$65K a year for everyone, that's our program, and don't look at costs, output or performance or impact on taxes or on the poor woo hoo!

yes how dare Erica provide an article on wages of govt. workers. It's irresponsible to do so! Remember, if you are a progressive, ALL DISCUSSION OF WAGES AND PERFORMANCE IN GOVT. IS VERBOTEN!!

Jah wohl, herr comandant, die diskutien auf der salarien auf der gummintarbeiters est der verboten!

yes how dare Erica provide an article on wages of govt. workers. It's irresponsible to do so! Remember, if you are a progressive, ALL DISCUSSION OF WAGES AND PERFORMANCE IN GOVT. IS VERBOTEN!!

Jah wohl, herr comandant, die diskutien auf der salarien auf der gummintarbeiters est der verboten!

okay mr. welch, please tell us how much the part time workers pay for their portion of premiums, also their wages and vacation and sick day and other benefits.

I would venture to say their package is a lot better than part time workers in most jobs (private sector jobs) who usually don't get shit.

Do these part time workers pay $380 a month like I have to pay?

okay mr. welch, please tell us how much the part time workers pay for their portion of premiums, also their wages and vacation and sick day and other benefits.

I would venture to say their package is a lot better than part time workers in most jobs (private sector jobs) who usually don't get shit.

Do these part time workers pay $380 a month like I have to pay?

Well said. I'm not going to say much about the salary, except to say that after taxes and trying to save for retirement, there isn't much left.

Yes, I agree, unions aren't perfect, there are some things they do that I don't agree with, but that's for another discussion. I support the union not just to negotiate for wages, but as Sack said, also for fairness and protection in the work place, which is equally important. Even then, there are still a number of supervisors, base chiefs, and others who like to push the envelope and trigger the costly (for everybody) greivence procedures. Also, the seniority system keeps things fair and prevents weasel employees from taking advantage of the system. Kissing the boss's behind won't get you a better route, hours, or days off. You get in line like everybody else and wait your turn.

Well said. I'm not going to say much about the salary, except to say that after taxes and trying to save for retirement, there isn't much left.

Yes, I agree, unions aren't perfect, there are some things they do that I don't agree with, but that's for another discussion. I support the union not just to negotiate for wages, but as Sack said, also for fairness and protection in the work place, which is equally important. Even then, there are still a number of supervisors, base chiefs, and others who like to push the envelope and trigger the costly (for everybody) greivence procedures. Also, the seniority system keeps things fair and prevents weasel employees from taking advantage of the system. Kissing the boss's behind won't get you a better route, hours, or days off. You get in line like everybody else and wait your turn.

But I'm sure these other “families” you speak of don't put their job in jeapordy if they get a ticket in their personal vehicle. They don't have to pass an annual physical (which the employee has to pay for) to keep their job. They don't have to put up with being spit on or beat half to death by thugs for simply doing their job. They don't have to put up with daily verbal abuse from riders. Do you need more? There's plenty!

But I'm sure these other “families” you speak of don't put their job in jeapordy if they get a ticket in their personal vehicle. They don't have to pass an annual physical (which the employee has to pay for) to keep their job. They don't have to put up with being spit on or beat half to death by thugs for simply doing their job. They don't have to put up with daily verbal abuse from riders. Do you need more? There's plenty!

I used to be like you, wibbles. When I was working crappy jobs for crappy pay for crappy bosses, I was po'd at everybody who made more than me in nice jobs with decent benefits. I like my job driving the bus, but the only real difference now is that at least the pay and benefits is on a level with the requirements and stress level

FWIW, I pay a $40 co-pay for office visits, and that's under the “cheap” plan, Group Health. The other is Aetna, where I would have to pay the first $500. Top it off with the fact that we pay in the way of privacy by having to take a very user-unfriendly annual “Wellness Assesment” evaluation online, where they ask a lot of very nosy questions (e.g. they consider having a firearm as a “negative” to your health assesement), and unless you're super-athletic and can spend all your free time in a gym, you get the Silver or Bronze level. What that means is we pay a higher co-pay or deductible. It also means we have to put up with busy-body “wellness coaches” who call once a week or so to see if we've been eating our vegetables and doing our exercises.

The county has to pay a third party vendor for that garbage, and it doesn't do jack/squat to reduce health care costs.

I used to be like you, wibbles. When I was working crappy jobs for crappy pay for crappy bosses, I was po'd at everybody who made more than me in nice jobs with decent benefits. I like my job driving the bus, but the only real difference now is that at least the pay and benefits is on a level with the requirements and stress level

FWIW, I pay a $40 co-pay for office visits, and that's under the “cheap” plan, Group Health. The other is Aetna, where I would have to pay the first $500. Top it off with the fact that we pay in the way of privacy by having to take a very user-unfriendly annual “Wellness Assesment” evaluation online, where they ask a lot of very nosy questions (e.g. they consider having a firearm as a “negative” to your health assesement), and unless you're super-athletic and can spend all your free time in a gym, you get the Silver or Bronze level. What that means is we pay a higher co-pay or deductible. It also means we have to put up with busy-body “wellness coaches” who call once a week or so to see if we've been eating our vegetables and doing our exercises.

The county has to pay a third party vendor for that garbage, and it doesn't do jack/squat to reduce health care costs.

The talk about the pay for new operators is a straw man. The writers of the two columns didn't suggest cutting from the bottom. Clearly, they and most of the commenters have concentrated on the top pay. What has not been pointed out by the drivers here is that there is a lot of overtime paid. In fact in 2009 over $9,000,000. The majority of these payments went to top or near top wage drivers. Just by switching this overtime to lower paid workers a very significant saving could be had. If, as the drivers here report, the new drivers only work part-time and don't receive benefits, 75% of that overtime could be saved and low paid worker would get very much needed income.

Over 500 operators made $5,000 plus in overtime. 10 made over $40,000 in overtime. Source Lbloom.net downloaded excel sheet.

The talk about the pay for new operators is a straw man. The writers of the two columns didn't suggest cutting from the bottom. Clearly, they and most of the commenters have concentrated on the top pay. What has not been pointed out by the drivers here is that there is a lot of overtime paid. In fact in 2009 over $9,000,000. The majority of these payments went to top or near top wage drivers. Just by switching this overtime to lower paid workers a very significant saving could be had. If, as the drivers here report, the new drivers only work part-time and don't receive benefits, 75% of that overtime could be saved and low paid worker would get very much needed income.

Over 500 operators made $5,000 plus in overtime. 10 made over $40,000 in overtime. Source Lbloom.net downloaded excel sheet.

Hey, go for it. I like small government. Kick all the overpaid administrators out too. You won't hear me complaining.

Hey, go for it. I like small government. Kick all the overpaid administrators out too. You won't hear me complaining.

Why would I want to sit on my butt driving a giant vehicle all day? I can make the same or better money sitting on my butt without the driving part.

I don't want to be a long-haul truck driver either, and they make good money. Of course, they are often small business owners rather than union leeches, so are a very different demographic of worker.

Why would I want to sit on my butt driving a giant vehicle all day? I can make the same or better money sitting on my butt without the driving part.

I don't want to be a long-haul truck driver either, and they make good money. Of course, they are often small business owners rather than union leeches, so are a very different demographic of worker.

I find the assumption that if you critique bus driver pay, you must be making low wages pretty hilarious. Project much?

I find the assumption that if you critique bus driver pay, you must be making low wages pretty hilarious. Project much?

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh wow. Dude, you made an old person laugh out loud. Congratulations.

Without that investment bank money, the fiscal crises would have come up and been dealt with many years earlier (and been much smaller in scale) rather than being kicked down the road via cheap borrowing.

But that may be too complex a concept for you to grasp. Somebody on TV told you it was the fault of the 'fat cat bankers' and you believed them. You repeat it now because you think it makes you look smart.

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh wow. Dude, you made an old person laugh out loud. Congratulations.

Without that investment bank money, the fiscal crises would have come up and been dealt with many years earlier (and been much smaller in scale) rather than being kicked down the road via cheap borrowing.

But that may be too complex a concept for you to grasp. Somebody on TV told you it was the fault of the 'fat cat bankers' and you believed them. You repeat it now because you think it makes you look smart.

There are a lot more 60k bus drivers than 100k administrators. That is why you can't just cut salaries at the top to resolve budget crises. It is good political theater and certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not where the bulk of the money is available to trim. That does lie with the 'frontline workers', as you put it.

There are a lot more 60k bus drivers than 100k administrators. That is why you can't just cut salaries at the top to resolve budget crises. It is good political theater and certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not where the bulk of the money is available to trim. That does lie with the 'frontline workers', as you put it.

No, kissing the union leader's behind gets you a better route or hours. Totally a better system!

No, kissing the union leader's behind gets you a better route or hours. Totally a better system!

Wibbles -

So what would you have, a stressed-out driver losing their job just because they didn't kiss your ass?

There is a (tongue-in-cheek) form at Metro called the HURT FEELINGS REPORT. If you like, I'll send you one.

Wibbles -

So what would you have, a stressed-out driver losing their job just because they didn't kiss your ass?

There is a (tongue-in-cheek) form at Metro called the HURT FEELINGS REPORT. If you like, I'll send you one.

And you're defensive. There are bad bus drivers on metro. There are overpaid bus drivers in metro. We're all humans, that doesn't mean being a parent or whatever means a bus driver is immune from critique.

Your whole 'bus drivers cannot be criticized, they live next door to other people' is ridiculous.

And you're defensive. There are bad bus drivers on metro. There are overpaid bus drivers in metro. We're all humans, that doesn't mean being a parent or whatever means a bus driver is immune from critique.

Your whole 'bus drivers cannot be criticized, they live next door to other people' is ridiculous.

And here we have concrete proof that Wibbles has absolutely no idea whatsoever what he or she is talking about.

“Union leaders” don't determine who gets what route or what shifts. The work rules in the contract help determine that.

If the people who hate unions so much actually knew anything about them, they might not have such a problem with them. But I guess they need their bogeyman.

And here we have concrete proof that Wibbles has absolutely no idea whatsoever what he or she is talking about.

“Union leaders” don't determine who gets what route or what shifts. The work rules in the contract help determine that.

If the people who hate unions so much actually knew anything about them, they might not have such a problem with them. But I guess they need their bogeyman.

Cutting top wages and reducing overtime will save jobs and service.

The vast majority of drivers are okay or better. I think he was pointing out that with civil service and the union it is very hard to do anything about bad/rude drivers. What was the name of the driver that stopped her bus on the WS Bridge was fired, had the union bring her back and then hit and killed a driver head on?

Cutting top wages and reducing overtime will save jobs and service.

The vast majority of drivers are okay or better. I think he was pointing out that with civil service and the union it is very hard to do anything about bad/rude drivers. What was the name of the driver that stopped her bus on the WS Bridge was fired, had the union bring her back and then hit and killed a driver head on?

you have some facts wrong. seattle/king co. has the highest cost of living. even higher than nyc. which used to run 10% above the rest of the country.cadillac health care?? employees pay 18% of health care cost as a deductible and the have to qualify for that by filling out daily logs on excerise and eating for 45 days, as do thier spouse/domestic partner.do other health care plans do this. no. you just go to the doctor when needed. there are openings for p/t drivers on the k.c website. why don't you apply?? do you even qualify??? I have my doubts. wouldn't you have a better story if you did???? instead of just “flogging” public employees from some laptop at starbucks????

you have some facts wrong. seattle/king co. has the highest cost of living. even higher than nyc. which used to run 10% above the rest of the country.cadillac health care?? employees pay 18% of health care cost as a deductible and the have to qualify for that by filling out daily logs on excerise and eating for 45 days, as do thier spouse/domestic partner.do other health care plans do this. no. you just go to the doctor when needed. there are openings for p/t drivers on the k.c website. why don't you apply?? do you even qualify??? I have my doubts. wouldn't you have a better story if you did???? instead of just “flogging” public employees from some laptop at starbucks????

Then how did ten operators get over $40,000 in overtime. Is there a Batbus that only they can drive?

Then how did ten operators get over $40,000 in overtime. Is there a Batbus that only they can drive?

I rarely take public transit and I haven't noticed drivers to be kissing
anyone's ass on their routes.

metro drivers don't lose their jobs because of rider complaints, either.

I rarely take public transit and I haven't noticed drivers to be kissing
anyone's ass on their routes.

metro drivers don't lose their jobs because of rider complaints, either.

And the contract is never renegotiated, apparently.

But anyway, there are ways to milk the system and get perks as a union
employee, and in fact we have bus drivers doing it, with the rampant
overtime as just one example.

There are union employees who believe that the contract determines all and
union employees who know better.

And the contract is never renegotiated, apparently.

But anyway, there are ways to milk the system and get perks as a union
employee, and in fact we have bus drivers doing it, with the rampant
overtime as just one example.

There are union employees who believe that the contract determines all and
union employees who know better.

I pay basically nothing for my health 'insurance'. No co-pays, no
deductibles, etc. But everything is covered. Why would I pass up such a
sweet deal to get something less good that involves driving around in a
giant bus all day?

seattle is overpriced and yet the majority of people living here manage just
fine on less than 60k/year. of course, it's overpriced due to regulatory
capture, but we're not allowed to say anything about that.

I pay basically nothing for my health 'insurance'. No co-pays, no
deductibles, etc. But everything is covered. Why would I pass up such a
sweet deal to get something less good that involves driving around in a
giant bus all day?

seattle is overpriced and yet the majority of people living here manage just
fine on less than 60k/year. of course, it's overpriced due to regulatory
capture, but we're not allowed to say anything about that.

you have some facts wrong. seattle/king co. has the highest cost of living..

Why do you make stuff up? The list from Kiplingers shows Seattle below like 40 places – if you happen to have some proof please do provide it.

I'm sure Kiplinger is faking Seattle's relative cost of living.

If your spending money at Starbucks you're definitely making too much. Top Pot for me.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/…

New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island 400
Honolulu, HI 165
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA 158
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 142
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 138
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA 137
Fairbanks, AK 134
San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 132
Springfield, MA-CT 129
New Haven, CT 129
Rochester-Dover, NH-ME 129
Manchester, NH 129
Waterbury, CT 129
Leominster-Fitchburg-Gardner, MA 129
Portsmouth, NH-ME 129
Pittsfield, MA 129
Worcester, MA-CT 129
Lewiston-Auburn, ME 129
Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 129
Burlington-South Burlington, VT 129
Providence-Fall River-Warwick, RI-MA 129
Danbury, CT 129
Norwich-New London, CT-RI 129
Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT 129
Bangor, ME 129
Portland-South Portland-Biddeford, ME 129
Barnstable Town, MA 129
New Bedford, MA 129
Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 129
Anchorage, AK 125
Boulder, CO 124
Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 123
Baltimore-Towson, MD 121
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL 120
Fresno, CA 119
Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA 117
Flagstaff, AZ 116
Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville, CA 115
Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 114

you have some facts wrong. seattle/king co. has the highest cost of living..

Why do you make stuff up? The list from Kiplingers shows Seattle below like 40 places – if you happen to have some proof please do provide it.

I'm sure Kiplinger is faking Seattle's relative cost of living.

If your spending money at Starbucks you're definitely making too much. Top Pot for me.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/…

New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island 400
Honolulu, HI 165
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA 158
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 142
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 138
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA 137
Fairbanks, AK 134
San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 132
Springfield, MA-CT 129
New Haven, CT 129
Rochester-Dover, NH-ME 129
Manchester, NH 129
Waterbury, CT 129
Leominster-Fitchburg-Gardner, MA 129
Portsmouth, NH-ME 129
Pittsfield, MA 129
Worcester, MA-CT 129
Lewiston-Auburn, ME 129
Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 129
Burlington-South Burlington, VT 129
Providence-Fall River-Warwick, RI-MA 129
Danbury, CT 129
Norwich-New London, CT-RI 129
Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT 129
Bangor, ME 129
Portland-South Portland-Biddeford, ME 129
Barnstable Town, MA 129
New Bedford, MA 129
Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 129
Anchorage, AK 125
Boulder, CO 124
Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 123
Baltimore-Towson, MD 121
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL 120
Fresno, CA 119
Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA 117
Flagstaff, AZ 116
Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville, CA 115
Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 114

Wibbles,

“I pay basically nothing for my health 'insurance'. No co-pays, no
deductibles, etc.”

So you have it BETTER than bus drivers – yet here you are slamming bus drivers for having it so good.

Where do you work again? What is it you do for a living?

Wibbles,

“I pay basically nothing for my health 'insurance'. No co-pays, no
deductibles, etc.”

So you have it BETTER than bus drivers – yet here you are slamming bus drivers for having it so good.

Where do you work again? What is it you do for a living?

“The writers of the two columns didn't suggest cutting from the bottom.”

The hell they haven't.

“Clearly, they and most of the commenters have concentrated on the top pay.”

The hell they have.

What articles are YOU reading?

“The writers of the two columns didn't suggest cutting from the bottom.”

The hell they haven't.

“Clearly, they and most of the commenters have concentrated on the top pay.”

The hell they have.

What articles are YOU reading?

OMG. $28 an hour equals 40,000 a year after taxes. Divided by 12 = $3300 a month IF this is full time. For a family of 4:

Mortgage $1500/mo
Groceries $800/mo
1 Car payment $300/mo
Insurance $100/mo
Water/Lights/garbage $300/mo
retirement savings (at 10%) = $330/mo
Phobe/Cable $100 a month

OMG. Out of money! Spouse better get a job! What, no jobs? Guess the greedy bus driver is screwed and needs to sell the house and get an apartment and stuff the spouse and kids into it. Oh wait, no equity to recapture, due to market. Better sell the car. Oh wait, the 8 and 4 year old cannot take the bus to child care or to 3rd grade on their own. Guess they are screwed.

OMG. $28 an hour equals 40,000 a year after taxes. Divided by 12 = $3300 a month IF this is full time. For a family of 4:

Mortgage $1500/mo
Groceries $800/mo
1 Car payment $300/mo
Insurance $100/mo
Water/Lights/garbage $300/mo
retirement savings (at 10%) = $330/mo
Phobe/Cable $100 a month

OMG. Out of money! Spouse better get a job! What, no jobs? Guess the greedy bus driver is screwed and needs to sell the house and get an apartment and stuff the spouse and kids into it. Oh wait, no equity to recapture, due to market. Better sell the car. Oh wait, the 8 and 4 year old cannot take the bus to child care or to 3rd grade on their own. Guess they are screwed.

Info please,

“please tell us how much the part time workers pay for their portion of premiums,”

Look here – it's a web site that was SELECTIVELY cited by Barnett in a prior article. This is a link to the COMPLETE information:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/employees/benefits/Yo…

Part timers working under an average of 4 hours per day pay 30% of their health premiums, and all of their vision and dental – and that's just for the employee. If you want a spouse and/or children covered, you pay 100% of their premiums. When I was a more junior part-timer, for me that was just over $70.00 per month. I did not cover my spouse or daughter as I simply couldn't afford to.

Wages I've already mentioned – part-time Operators receive no step increase until their third year. Until recently, the month spent training was paid at minimum wage (I think it's up to $13.00 an hour now), and once certified a part time Operator makes just over $19.00 an hour, with only a guarantee of 2.5 hours of work per day.

Part time Operators don't start accruing paid vacation until their second year, and can't actually TAKE any vacation time until their third year. The amount accrued is 2 weeks, and remember this is part-time. You take the time off, and you only get paid for the number of hours you would normally have worked.

I'm sorry that you have a crappy job with crappy benefits. Apparently you're not happy with that. Why do you think that I would be either?

If bus drivers have it so good and you have it so lousy – then why don't you apply to be one, and quit your damn whining? You may be among those willing to fight for lower wages and worse benefits. I ain't one of 'em.

Info please,

“please tell us how much the part time workers pay for their portion of premiums,”

Look here – it's a web site that was SELECTIVELY cited by Barnett in a prior article. This is a link to the COMPLETE information:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/employees/benefits/Yo…

Part timers working under an average of 4 hours per day pay 30% of their health premiums, and all of their vision and dental – and that's just for the employee. If you want a spouse and/or children covered, you pay 100% of their premiums. When I was a more junior part-timer, for me that was just over $70.00 per month. I did not cover my spouse or daughter as I simply couldn't afford to.

Wages I've already mentioned – part-time Operators receive no step increase until their third year. Until recently, the month spent training was paid at minimum wage (I think it's up to $13.00 an hour now), and once certified a part time Operator makes just over $19.00 an hour, with only a guarantee of 2.5 hours of work per day.

Part time Operators don't start accruing paid vacation until their second year, and can't actually TAKE any vacation time until their third year. The amount accrued is 2 weeks, and remember this is part-time. You take the time off, and you only get paid for the number of hours you would normally have worked.

I'm sorry that you have a crappy job with crappy benefits. Apparently you're not happy with that. Why do you think that I would be either?

If bus drivers have it so good and you have it so lousy – then why don't you apply to be one, and quit your damn whining? You may be among those willing to fight for lower wages and worse benefits. I ain't one of 'em.

Why didn't MacDonald and ECB focus – or even comment on – non-blue collar workers' salary and benefit packages? Why no mention of those supervisors, managers and administrators making $100K per year plus bennies?

NONE.

Why didn't MacDonald and ECB focus – or even comment on – non-blue collar workers' salary and benefit packages? Why no mention of those supervisors, managers and administrators making $100K per year plus bennies?

NONE.

“There are a lot more 60k bus drivers than 100k administrators.”

So what?

“That is why you can't just cut salaries at the top to resolve budget crises.”

Who said you could?

Are you denying that cutting at the top would save money? If cutting 2 overpaid, redundant administrators would keep 3 bus drivers on the road serving the public – would that not be worthwhile?

I understand what the numbers are. What I don't understand is why 100% of the focus in savings at the County level is on frontline workers, and NOT A PEEP about the top-heavy, overpaid administration, much of which could be cut entirely without the public noticing one whit.

Why isn't anyone talking about cutting at the top??

“There are a lot more 60k bus drivers than 100k administrators.”

So what?

“That is why you can't just cut salaries at the top to resolve budget crises.”

Who said you could?

Are you denying that cutting at the top would save money? If cutting 2 overpaid, redundant administrators would keep 3 bus drivers on the road serving the public – would that not be worthwhile?

I understand what the numbers are. What I don't understand is why 100% of the focus in savings at the County level is on frontline workers, and NOT A PEEP about the top-heavy, overpaid administration, much of which could be cut entirely without the public noticing one whit.

Why isn't anyone talking about cutting at the top??

I laugh when you say “much more expensive” cities. Seattle right now is the most overpriced city in the world. Look at cost of sq. ft. and you realize that a bus driver has to make that much just to be able to live within driving distance of his bus depot.

I laugh when you say “much more expensive” cities. Seattle right now is the most overpriced city in the world. Look at cost of sq. ft. and you realize that a bus driver has to make that much just to be able to live within driving distance of his bus depot.

morning,

You should learn a bit more. Drivers are disciplined, and even fired, all the time. The union doesn't protect the incompetent – it simply ensures due process and contract adherence.

I believe that the driver you referred to had a number of customer complaints and a few accidents in a 10 year period. That isn't unusual. Spend enough time behind the wheel and you'll have accidents, and given the number of idiots who look down their noses at drivers, as well as other miscreants who complain simply to be jerks (usually anonymously), often telling outright lies when they do so and you have a lot of crap landing in driver records that's meaningless even when taken as a whole.

No case goes to arbitration without a vote of the membership, and each driver seeking redress has to go before other members to tell their story and get authorization for the union to act on their behalf. These votes are often “no”, and sometimes even though the members vote to pursue arbitration, the union's attorney's wind up telling the union that the case is a lost cause (usually because a genuine screwup continues to screwup and shoot themselves in the foot), the case gets dropped by the union anyway.

Bottom line: drivers can be disciplined and even fired – and it happens all the time. Not every mistake, accident, or customer complaint is worthy of discipline or firing, and all drivers rack up a number of both over the years. It's the nature of the job and dealing with a diverse and often unruly public.

Here's an article that's just for fun you may want to check out as well:

Real Stories of Metro Transit's Meanest, Weirdest, Cheapest, Horniest, and Smelliest Passengers
http://tinyurl.com/2vrbvk

morning,

You should learn a bit more. Drivers are disciplined, and even fired, all the time. The union doesn't protect the incompetent – it simply ensures due process and contract adherence.

I believe that the driver you referred to had a number of customer complaints and a few accidents in a 10 year period. That isn't unusual. Spend enough time behind the wheel and you'll have accidents, and given the number of idiots who look down their noses at drivers, as well as other miscreants who complain simply to be jerks (usually anonymously), often telling outright lies when they do so and you have a lot of crap landing in driver records that's meaningless even when taken as a whole.

No case goes to arbitration without a vote of the membership, and each driver seeking redress has to go before other members to tell their story and get authorization for the union to act on their behalf. These votes are often “no”, and sometimes even though the members vote to pursue arbitration, the union's attorney's wind up telling the union that the case is a lost cause (usually because a genuine screwup continues to screwup and shoot themselves in the foot), the case gets dropped by the union anyway.

Bottom line: drivers can be disciplined and even fired – and it happens all the time. Not every mistake, accident, or customer complaint is worthy of discipline or firing, and all drivers rack up a number of both over the years. It's the nature of the job and dealing with a diverse and often unruly public.

Here's an article that's just for fun you may want to check out as well:

Real Stories of Metro Transit's Meanest, Weirdest, Cheapest, Horniest, and Smelliest Passengers
http://tinyurl.com/2vrbvk

“I rarely take public transit”

Well that explains why you don't appear to know your ass from a hole in the ground about it.

“I haven't noticed drivers to be kissing anyone's ass on their routes.”

Neither have I. Maybe that's because delivering good customer service and safe transportation doesn't involve ass-kissing. I looked in my job description just now. Nope. Nothing about kissing anyone's ass.

“metro drivers don't lose their jobs because of rider complaints, either. “

If there are enough complaints that are serious enough and legitimate enough – yeah, they do.

Most complaints aren't either serious or legitimate however. Most are anonymous retaliation by some hothead jerk who believes that anyone wearing a driver's uniform is some sort of sub-human mongoloid who needs to be taken down a peg.

Folks like you.

What did you say YOU do for a living again?

“I rarely take public transit”

Well that explains why you don't appear to know your ass from a hole in the ground about it.

“I haven't noticed drivers to be kissing anyone's ass on their routes.”

Neither have I. Maybe that's because delivering good customer service and safe transportation doesn't involve ass-kissing. I looked in my job description just now. Nope. Nothing about kissing anyone's ass.

“metro drivers don't lose their jobs because of rider complaints, either. “

If there are enough complaints that are serious enough and legitimate enough – yeah, they do.

Most complaints aren't either serious or legitimate however. Most are anonymous retaliation by some hothead jerk who believes that anyone wearing a driver's uniform is some sort of sub-human mongoloid who needs to be taken down a peg.

Folks like you.

What did you say YOU do for a living again?

Drivers who worked a lot of overtime got that pay for WORKING. Working behind the wheel, spending time away from their families, homes, and recreational pursuits.

People who put in a lot of hours DESERVE to be well-compensated for busting their butts.

However – one reason that there is so much overtime worked are union protections extended to full-time drivers to make sure that there is – in my view too much – overtime available. The main cause of this is restrictions on when and how many hours per day a part-time employee can work.

See my article “Part Time Metro Operators and the New Contract”
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

For more specifics on that.

Drivers who worked a lot of overtime got that pay for WORKING. Working behind the wheel, spending time away from their families, homes, and recreational pursuits.

People who put in a lot of hours DESERVE to be well-compensated for busting their butts.

However – one reason that there is so much overtime worked are union protections extended to full-time drivers to make sure that there is – in my view too much – overtime available. The main cause of this is restrictions on when and how many hours per day a part-time employee can work.

See my article “Part Time Metro Operators and the New Contract”
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

For more specifics on that.

“kissing the union leader's behind gets you a better route or hours.”

LOL. You really are completely clueless. That would be forgivable – if it weren't for the fact that the Metro driver's contract is freely available online.

Hint: union leaders don't assign work.

Here's the contract: http://www.atu587.com/membership-bargaining.html

What did you say you do for a living again? Men's room attendant, was it?

“kissing the union leader's behind gets you a better route or hours.”

LOL. You really are completely clueless. That would be forgivable – if it weren't for the fact that the Metro driver's contract is freely available online.

Hint: union leaders don't assign work.

Here's the contract: http://www.atu587.com/membership-bargaining.html

What did you say you do for a living again? Men's room attendant, was it?

“Your whole 'bus drivers cannot be criticized, they live next door to other people' is ridiculous. “

Of course it is. That's why I never said any such thing.

You've attacked my profession, made blanket statements, ignorant comments and outright lies on this thread. If you expect that nonsense to go unanswered – you don't live in the land of reality. giffy's comment that I responsed to here said that MOST drivers don't bother to “announce stops, be on time, or really do much of anything.” That's a blanket insult, a fabrication, and complete horse-shit.

What did you say you did for a living again?

“Your whole 'bus drivers cannot be criticized, they live next door to other people' is ridiculous. “

Of course it is. That's why I never said any such thing.

You've attacked my profession, made blanket statements, ignorant comments and outright lies on this thread. If you expect that nonsense to go unanswered – you don't live in the land of reality. giffy's comment that I responsed to here said that MOST drivers don't bother to “announce stops, be on time, or really do much of anything.” That's a blanket insult, a fabrication, and complete horse-shit.

What did you say you did for a living again?

The articles talk about the top paying driver jobs. Neither advocates for reducing the entry level pay. You say you work for Metro but there is no J Welch working there. Why don't you just call yourself Pissed Bus driver or something instead of stealing some Jeff Welch's identity -;)

The reason drivers are “picked on” is that bus drivers get $131M of the operating $500M budget.

The way it will go now is that short-time, low-income people will lose their jobs.

The articles talk about the top paying driver jobs. Neither advocates for reducing the entry level pay. You say you work for Metro but there is no J Welch working there. Why don't you just call yourself Pissed Bus driver or something instead of stealing some Jeff Welch's identity -;)

The reason drivers are “picked on” is that bus drivers get $131M of the operating $500M budget.

The way it will go now is that short-time, low-income people will lose their jobs.

So basically you think that drivers earn too much, have benefits that are excessive, etc. – and you whine that YOUR benefits suck ass.

You aren't willing to do what it takes to improve your own situation, instead you sit back, fling insults, whine and tell lies about those of us who ARE so willing.

Your parents must be very proud.

What did you say you do for a living again?

So basically you think that drivers earn too much, have benefits that are excessive, etc. – and you whine that YOUR benefits suck ass.

You aren't willing to do what it takes to improve your own situation, instead you sit back, fling insults, whine and tell lies about those of us who ARE so willing.

Your parents must be very proud.

What did you say you do for a living again?

“You say you work for Metro but there is no J Welch working there. “

Sure there is. He's me. I worked there last year too. Want proof – LIAR?

Look here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/soundinfo/kingsal…

Just search for my last name. You'll see a line that says Welch, Jeffrey. You'll see that I'm a Transit Operator with DOT/Transportation. That my base salary is (rounded up) $20.00 an hour and that last year I raked in a healthy $24,107.00 to help make payments on my mansion. I also author a blog at http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com . Catch me on Facebook if you like: http://www.facebook.com/jeffw66seattle .

And ya know – I'm actually a HAPPY bus driver. I love my job. That doesn't mean I sit back and passively allow folks to slam my profession (and that of my Grandfather), tell lies, or make ignorant comments that can ultimately impacy my ability to provide for my family.

“The reason drivers are “picked on” is that bus drivers get $131M of the operating $500M budget. “

You think that might have something to do with the fact that there are 2800 of them – more than any other County department?

Looking forward to you retracting your lie.

“You say you work for Metro but there is no J Welch working there. “

Sure there is. He's me. I worked there last year too. Want proof – LIAR?

Look here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/soundinfo/kingsal…

Just search for my last name. You'll see a line that says Welch, Jeffrey. You'll see that I'm a Transit Operator with DOT/Transportation. That my base salary is (rounded up) $20.00 an hour and that last year I raked in a healthy $24,107.00 to help make payments on my mansion. I also author a blog at http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com . Catch me on Facebook if you like: http://www.facebook.com/jeffw66seattle .

And ya know – I'm actually a HAPPY bus driver. I love my job. That doesn't mean I sit back and passively allow folks to slam my profession (and that of my Grandfather), tell lies, or make ignorant comments that can ultimately impacy my ability to provide for my family.

“The reason drivers are “picked on” is that bus drivers get $131M of the operating $500M budget. “

You think that might have something to do with the fact that there are 2800 of them – more than any other County department?

Looking forward to you retracting your lie.

Not whining, just asking. I am glad for the part of your response that actually provides information. I know now that the part times are paying something and don't get lavish benefits. Okay?

So, why'd you have to be such an asshole about it?

BTW my job doesn't suck it's great. Thanks for asking. One thing about it is I pay that much for health care. so you know what? The part timers at metro have a better health care deal than many full timers in the private sector. There. It's a fact. It's on the table. Now go get all hysterical about it and act like we can give everyone everthing they want and money grows on trees, and when you're finished with that, perhaps you should go take a nap and get a story for nap time, too.

What I think is fair is to have govt. employees earn in line with private sector and esp. when they're financed disproportionately by the working poor and a regressive sales tax we should try to minimize taxing poor peter to pay better off paul. I don't see a single bus driver out there with the petitions for the income tax, btw.

Not whining, just asking. I am glad for the part of your response that actually provides information. I know now that the part times are paying something and don't get lavish benefits. Okay?

So, why'd you have to be such an asshole about it?

BTW my job doesn't suck it's great. Thanks for asking. One thing about it is I pay that much for health care. so you know what? The part timers at metro have a better health care deal than many full timers in the private sector. There. It's a fact. It's on the table. Now go get all hysterical about it and act like we can give everyone everthing they want and money grows on trees, and when you're finished with that, perhaps you should go take a nap and get a story for nap time, too.

What I think is fair is to have govt. employees earn in line with private sector and esp. when they're financed disproportionately by the working poor and a regressive sales tax we should try to minimize taxing poor peter to pay better off paul. I don't see a single bus driver out there with the petitions for the income tax, btw.

Real Stories of Metro Transit's Meanest, Weirdest, Cheapest, Horniest, and Smelliest Passengers
http://www.seattleweekly.com/2007-07-25/news/re…

Real Stories of Metro Transit's Meanest, Weirdest, Cheapest, Horniest, and Smelliest Passengers
http://www.seattleweekly.com/2007-07-25/news/re…

This wasn't an article – it was an article about someone else's article (Crosscut). It was and is journalistic laziness incarnate.

This wasn't an article – it was an article about someone else's article (Crosscut). It was and is journalistic laziness incarnate.

NSA,

Not sure about the “asshole” part. I've certainly been intentionally guilty of that as is often my style but not seeing how I rate the accusation here.

As far as benefit packages go – my health care benefits at Metro are identitcal to those I've had at 2 other jobs, both in the nonprofit sector. I have Group Health. I have deductibles and out of pocket expenses IDENTICAL to those I had at other jobs in the private sector.

Yes, these benefits are “better than many in the private sector”. They're also exactly as good, and even worse than “many in the private sector”.

So what?

“I don't see a single bus driver out there with the petitions for the income tax.”

How do you know?

NSA,

Not sure about the “asshole” part. I've certainly been intentionally guilty of that as is often my style but not seeing how I rate the accusation here.

As far as benefit packages go – my health care benefits at Metro are identitcal to those I've had at 2 other jobs, both in the nonprofit sector. I have Group Health. I have deductibles and out of pocket expenses IDENTICAL to those I had at other jobs in the private sector.

Yes, these benefits are “better than many in the private sector”. They're also exactly as good, and even worse than “many in the private sector”.

So what?

“I don't see a single bus driver out there with the petitions for the income tax.”

How do you know?

You nailed it buddy, have that spouse get a job and you will find your net goes up. Even after paying child care. Also the kids will be school soon then your spouse can get a part time job with benefits , nice, being a part time driver.

Everyone else takes two incomes, bus drivers should live on one?

WTF?

You nailed it buddy, have that spouse get a job and you will find your net goes up. Even after paying child care. Also the kids will be school soon then your spouse can get a part time job with benefits , nice, being a part time driver.

Everyone else takes two incomes, bus drivers should live on one?

WTF?

I laugh at reading your posts, if you think Seattle is the most expensive city in the world you could be a redneck. Tell me the truth, you think LA SF NY Paris London Rome are as expensive as Seattle?

Seol? Tokyo?

Oh wait, do you actually believe that feelings are really facts?

I laugh at reading your posts, if you think Seattle is the most expensive city in the world you could be a redneck. Tell me the truth, you think LA SF NY Paris London Rome are as expensive as Seattle?

Seol? Tokyo?

Oh wait, do you actually believe that feelings are really facts?

Data, data, data. Where do you come off it responding with data? If you base everything on data, then you don't get to keep arguing, there comes a time when some one is “right” and someone is “wrong.”

that would mean some people are better than other people, or at least their opinions are!

What are you some kind of elitist? Everyone's equally valid, dude.

Data, data, data. Where do you come off it responding with data? If you base everything on data, then you don't get to keep arguing, there comes a time when some one is “right” and someone is “wrong.”

that would mean some people are better than other people, or at least their opinions are!

What are you some kind of elitist? Everyone's equally valid, dude.

CID,

I think you missed the point of the tongue in cheek rant you're responding to. The point is that in spite of the reactionist nonsense and yellow journalism, bus drivers aren't exactly living high on the hog. We have it better than some, worse than some. Our pay and benefits are better than some private sector jobs – worse than others.

Bottom line is that we're really just working stiffs like most folks in this area. Our jobs are NOT easy. I do not believe we're overcompensated, nor will I for a minute apologize for wanting affordable healthcare for myself and my family. I will not for a minute apologize for wanting to earn a living wage (with or without a working spouse). I will not for a minute apologize when working 60 hours a week gives me an extra $10K a year or two. I will not for a minute apologize for the job that I do, or the wage that I earn doing it – nor should I, because I damn well earn both.

Ain't nobody getting rich driving a bus, guys. Those who really see it as an all-fired super deal should go immediately to King County Metro and apply to become one:

Don't all run there at once.

CID,

I think you missed the point of the tongue in cheek rant you're responding to. The point is that in spite of the reactionist nonsense and yellow journalism, bus drivers aren't exactly living high on the hog. We have it better than some, worse than some. Our pay and benefits are better than some private sector jobs – worse than others.

Bottom line is that we're really just working stiffs like most folks in this area. Our jobs are NOT easy. I do not believe we're overcompensated, nor will I for a minute apologize for wanting affordable healthcare for myself and my family. I will not for a minute apologize for wanting to earn a living wage (with or without a working spouse). I will not for a minute apologize when working 60 hours a week gives me an extra $10K a year or two. I will not for a minute apologize for the job that I do, or the wage that I earn doing it – nor should I, because I damn well earn both.

Ain't nobody getting rich driving a bus, guys. Those who really see it as an all-fired super deal should go immediately to King County Metro and apply to become one:

Don't all run there at once.

My apologies. If you go over to LBloom's King County employee list you will see that you are not listed as a transit operator.

http://lbloom.net/xking09.html

“The reason drivers are “picked on” is that bus drivers get $131M of the operating $500M budget. “

You think that might have something to do with the fact that there are 2800 of them – more than any other County department?.

Duh, that's the point. And from your hire date I'd say your lay-off is imminent. If instead of just cutting service and laying off the last in hires, we reduced benefits and pay for the top earners, but hey let's just fire the lowest income workers and keep giving the top plenty of overtime.

And calling people liars is on par with people calling workers UNION GOONS -

My apologies. If you go over to LBloom's King County employee list you will see that you are not listed as a transit operator.

http://lbloom.net/xking09.html

“The reason drivers are “picked on” is that bus drivers get $131M of the operating $500M budget. “

You think that might have something to do with the fact that there are 2800 of them – more than any other County department?.

Duh, that's the point. And from your hire date I'd say your lay-off is imminent. If instead of just cutting service and laying off the last in hires, we reduced benefits and pay for the top earners, but hey let's just fire the lowest income workers and keep giving the top plenty of overtime.

And calling people liars is on par with people calling workers UNION GOONS -

“. If you go over to LBloom's King County employee list you will see that you are not listed as a transit operator.”

Well, no – your'e lying again. I'm in the lbloom Excel file too.
http://lbloom.net/KC2009.xls

Line 16906.

“And calling people liars is on par with people calling workers UNION GOONS”

If you say so. Not sure how you'd define a “goon”, but I define a liar as someone who tells lies – and you've done it twice on this thread now, even accusing me of impersonating someone that I am not in doing so. Meanwhile – I post here using my own name, with (now) links to personal information verifying my identity, place of employment, job title and income. YOU are the one posting anonymously, sharing nothing about yourself.

“Goon” indeed.

“. If you go over to LBloom's King County employee list you will see that you are not listed as a transit operator.”

Well, no – your'e lying again. I'm in the lbloom Excel file too.
http://lbloom.net/KC2009.xls

Line 16906.

“And calling people liars is on par with people calling workers UNION GOONS”

If you say so. Not sure how you'd define a “goon”, but I define a liar as someone who tells lies – and you've done it twice on this thread now, even accusing me of impersonating someone that I am not in doing so. Meanwhile – I post here using my own name, with (now) links to personal information verifying my identity, place of employment, job title and income. YOU are the one posting anonymously, sharing nothing about yourself.

“Goon” indeed.

Uh, my benefits are fantastic. They are much better than what metro drivers get. I haven't said otherwise. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Uh, my benefits are fantastic. They are much better than what metro drivers get. I haven't said otherwise. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

I rarely take public transit because there are few routes where i live, which is of course pretty typical for the seattle area. if you don't live in a handful of neighborhoods within city limits, your transit options are pretty limited.

So according to you, any rider complaint is 'not serious or legitimate'. Good to know what you really think of the people who pay your salary!

I haven't actually posted anything in which i said a metro driver personally treated me poorly, but hey, way to make up stuff.

From what i've seen, they do their jobs and they get paid more than comparable bus drivers anywhere else. How you spin that into me feeling they should kiss anyone's ass is a mystery.

I rarely take public transit because there are few routes where i live, which is of course pretty typical for the seattle area. if you don't live in a handful of neighborhoods within city limits, your transit options are pretty limited.

So according to you, any rider complaint is 'not serious or legitimate'. Good to know what you really think of the people who pay your salary!

I haven't actually posted anything in which i said a metro driver personally treated me poorly, but hey, way to make up stuff.

From what i've seen, they do their jobs and they get paid more than comparable bus drivers anywhere else. How you spin that into me feeling they should kiss anyone's ass is a mystery.

dude, i said that cutting at the top was a great idea. actually look at what i wrote instead of gibbering about what you think i said.

it's just that cuts will have to be made at the middle and bottom too, in order to make a real dent.

dude, i said that cutting at the top was a great idea. actually look at what i wrote instead of gibbering about what you think i said.

it's just that cuts will have to be made at the middle and bottom too, in order to make a real dent.

nonprofits aren't in the private sector. most of them get government funding anyway as well.

nonprofits aren't in the private sector. most of them get government funding anyway as well.

bus drivers have it good compared to the *majority* of seattleites, who earn less and pay regressive taxes to cover your salary. that's worth calling out as a valid concern and a real problem. those salaries can be cut, which would mean not raising taxes on poor people.

why do you want to raise taxes on poor people to get more money, jeff?

bus drivers have it good compared to the *majority* of seattleites, who earn less and pay regressive taxes to cover your salary. that's worth calling out as a valid concern and a real problem. those salaries can be cut, which would mean not raising taxes on poor people.

why do you want to raise taxes on poor people to get more money, jeff?

first prove the retirement savings aren't coming out beforehand, as is the norm in both public and private sectors with 401k and pension contributions (that is, it's not part of the 'hourly').

then explain why anyone 'deserves' a mortgage, and at 1500, it is quite unlikely it's a seattle-area mortgage. that is rent on a house. mortages run more like 2000-3500/month for recent purchases (last few years or so).

the groceries is about 2.5x what people actually spend.

so in the real world there is a lot more money left over per month on such a salary if one isn't busy racking up debt on credit cards to purchase plasma screens and etc.

plus, while the unemployment rate is certainly above zero, there are plenty of jobs out there if someone actually wants one. many of them even pay 2-4x minimum wage.

poor money management doesn't mean someone deserves extra money from the poor via regressive taxation.

first prove the retirement savings aren't coming out beforehand, as is the norm in both public and private sectors with 401k and pension contributions (that is, it's not part of the 'hourly').

then explain why anyone 'deserves' a mortgage, and at 1500, it is quite unlikely it's a seattle-area mortgage. that is rent on a house. mortages run more like 2000-3500/month for recent purchases (last few years or so).

the groceries is about 2.5x what people actually spend.

so in the real world there is a lot more money left over per month on such a salary if one isn't busy racking up debt on credit cards to purchase plasma screens and etc.

plus, while the unemployment rate is certainly above zero, there are plenty of jobs out there if someone actually wants one. many of them even pay 2-4x minimum wage.

poor money management doesn't mean someone deserves extra money from the poor via regressive taxation.

Jeff I said you weren't listed as a transit operator on LBloom – once again I apologize for the error. Somehow in sorting you're job title vanished. If it makes you feel better thinking a mistake is a lie, so be it.

Jeff I said you weren't listed as a transit operator on LBloom – once again I apologize for the error. Somehow in sorting you're job title vanished. If it makes you feel better thinking a mistake is a lie, so be it.

Happy enough to accept correction on minor details of your specific union's ways of doing things. That's cool, knowledge is power and stuff.

But the budget gap has to be closed somewhere, and it shouldn't be closed by continuing to screw the poor so you can scramble for an extra six hours of overtime or whatever. You'll just have accept a small decrease in your pay-scale. It's horsecrap that you want to hurt poorer people to make more money for yourself. that is just ridiculously selfish, but so typical for union types. Not really interested in the greater good, just lining their own pockets.

Happy enough to accept correction on minor details of your specific union's ways of doing things. That's cool, knowledge is power and stuff.

But the budget gap has to be closed somewhere, and it shouldn't be closed by continuing to screw the poor so you can scramble for an extra six hours of overtime or whatever. You'll just have accept a small decrease in your pay-scale. It's horsecrap that you want to hurt poorer people to make more money for yourself. that is just ridiculously selfish, but so typical for union types. Not really interested in the greater good, just lining their own pockets.

If 30/hr is 'not that much', what the heck is the rest of King County and this state living on, then?

If 30/hr is 'not that much', what the heck is the rest of King County and this state living on, then?

How are poor people hurt by bus driver wages? As to overtime – you do realize that is paid for hours WORKED, right? It isn't some gift – some driver out there has to work extra hours driving a bus to earn it.

Am interested in hearing more about this “hurting the poor” thingy. How does that work, exactly?

And oh – what is it YOU do for a living again?

How are poor people hurt by bus driver wages? As to overtime – you do realize that is paid for hours WORKED, right? It isn't some gift – some driver out there has to work extra hours driving a bus to earn it.

Am interested in hearing more about this “hurting the poor” thingy. How does that work, exactly?

And oh – what is it YOU do for a living again?

“why do you want to raise taxes on poor people to get more money, jeff?”

I don't. When did you stop beating your wife?

What is it you do for a living again? You must be very ashamed of your own profession, as you keep refusing to answer.

A member of the King County Council are you? Is that you, Reagan Dunn? I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

“why do you want to raise taxes on poor people to get more money, jeff?”

I don't. When did you stop beating your wife?

What is it you do for a living again? You must be very ashamed of your own profession, as you keep refusing to answer.

A member of the King County Council are you? Is that you, Reagan Dunn? I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

Jeff are you serious? Are you trying to make drivers look dense? No one suggested, except you, that drivers didn't work for the overtime. The point is that if a $28 an hour driver gets time and half, that costs the taxpayer $42 plus ???, while if a part-time $20 an hour worker is used instead, it would save us money. Get it?

Jeff are you serious? Are you trying to make drivers look dense? No one suggested, except you, that drivers didn't work for the overtime. The point is that if a $28 an hour driver gets time and half, that costs the taxpayer $42 plus ???, while if a part-time $20 an hour worker is used instead, it would save us money. Get it?

If you're figuring fulltime, as you say, you're making $56K a year. Not likely you're paying $16,000 in income tax.

If you're figuring fulltime, as you say, you're making $56K a year. Not likely you're paying $16,000 in income tax.

morning,

Can't reply to your comment below as it's nested too far down.

I've written about the overtime issue – even right here on this thread. But if you really want my thoughts on the matter, visit my article:

Part Time Metro Operators and the New Contract
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

A notable quote from the article:

“The 7:59 limit creates a situation where many part-time pieces wind up going to FTTO’s at up to several hours of overtime (often at Top), just to avoid paying a PTTO even 1 minute of overtime.”

And a quote from me RIGHT HERE ON THIS THREAD:

“one reason that there is so much overtime worked are union protections extended to full-time drivers to make sure that there is – in my view too much – overtime available. The main cause of this is restrictions on when and how many hours per day a part-time employee can work.”

I guess if I'm trying to make Metro Operators “look dense”, I'm doing a lousy job of it. Good news though – wibbles is out there doing that very thing for folks on your side of the argument.

morning,

Can't reply to your comment below as it's nested too far down.

I've written about the overtime issue – even right here on this thread. But if you really want my thoughts on the matter, visit my article:

Part Time Metro Operators and the New Contract
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

A notable quote from the article:

“The 7:59 limit creates a situation where many part-time pieces wind up going to FTTO’s at up to several hours of overtime (often at Top), just to avoid paying a PTTO even 1 minute of overtime.”

And a quote from me RIGHT HERE ON THIS THREAD:

“one reason that there is so much overtime worked are union protections extended to full-time drivers to make sure that there is – in my view too much – overtime available. The main cause of this is restrictions on when and how many hours per day a part-time employee can work.”

I guess if I'm trying to make Metro Operators “look dense”, I'm doing a lousy job of it. Good news though – wibbles is out there doing that very thing for folks on your side of the argument.

you don't want metro employee salaries cut to meet a budget gap. that leaves debt or taxes (and the debt option is just delayed taxes). the current taxes levied are quite regressive and affect the poor the most. not that you seem to be concerned with anyone poor, though.

you shouldn't be against a wage freeze or pay decrease to make budget, since giving you guys more money will be mostly coming out of the pockets of local seattleites making less than you do.

you don't want metro employee salaries cut to meet a budget gap. that leaves debt or taxes (and the debt option is just delayed taxes). the current taxes levied are quite regressive and affect the poor the most. not that you seem to be concerned with anyone poor, though.

you shouldn't be against a wage freeze or pay decrease to make budget, since giving you guys more money will be mostly coming out of the pockets of local seattleites making less than you do.

I am just having fun (although not in the sun, since we only had that one
sunny day this weekend). Public unions do suck, but certainly metro's not
the only government entity that could use some slicing and dicing. but the
article's about metro, so whee! it is pretty funny to see the Typical
Seattle stuff come out in comment sections to articles suggesting that
unions are anything other than holy entities that must never be questioned,
only funded with a smile and ever more open wallet.

I am just having fun (although not in the sun, since we only had that one
sunny day this weekend). Public unions do suck, but certainly metro's not
the only government entity that could use some slicing and dicing. but the
article's about metro, so whee! it is pretty funny to see the Typical
Seattle stuff come out in comment sections to articles suggesting that
unions are anything other than holy entities that must never be questioned,
only funded with a smile and ever more open wallet.

This needs to be clearly presented as an Editorial and not a News article. You guys are usually ace but this is sad weaksauce and borderline Tea Bagger garbage in tenor (as evidenced by the commentary so far).

This needs to be clearly presented as an Editorial and not a News article. You guys are usually ace but this is sad weaksauce and borderline Tea Bagger garbage in tenor (as evidenced by the commentary so far).

see, jeff doesn't wwant to raise taxes on poor people, he just wants to sit there and have a service cut that impacts poor people. this is a vital distinction to jeff, as he then pivots to name calling, pulling out the tar brush, etc.

Classy.

see, jeff doesn't wwant to raise taxes on poor people, he just wants to sit there and have a service cut that impacts poor people. this is a vital distinction to jeff, as he then pivots to name calling, pulling out the tar brush, etc.

Classy.

typical, avoids the main point:

the bus driver need only get his spouse to work, then his family can make $100 or $120K a year, enough to live in Seattle, no problem.

typical, avoids the main point:

the bus driver need only get his spouse to work, then his family can make $100 or $120K a year, enough to live in Seattle, no problem.

According to Forbes (2008, so before the recession and currently still-lower pricing):

10. Orlando
9. Las Vegas
8. Miami
7. NYC
6. Boston
5. LA
4. San Diego
3. DC
2. San Fran
1. San Jose

Seattle doesn't even make Top 10 in the US, let alone the world.

According to Forbes (2008, so before the recession and currently still-lower pricing):

10. Orlando
9. Las Vegas
8. Miami
7. NYC
6. Boston
5. LA
4. San Diego
3. DC
2. San Fran
1. San Jose

Seattle doesn't even make Top 10 in the US, let alone the world.

For anybody really interested in some additional; facts about this issue, you should read Jeff Welch's wordpress piece on how the system works. Although he fights here, basically he supports everything discussed here except for a top end wage reduction. There are favorite drivers that get overtime or extra hours. The part-time workers are treated as second class and are given a chance to work 40 hours while full timers get up to $40,000 in overtime. It appears the union needs reform.

http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

For anybody really interested in some additional; facts about this issue, you should read Jeff Welch's wordpress piece on how the system works. Although he fights here, basically he supports everything discussed here except for a top end wage reduction. There are favorite drivers that get overtime or extra hours. The part-time workers are treated as second class and are given a chance to work 40 hours while full timers get up to $40,000 in overtime. It appears the union needs reform.

http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

Sorry Joe but that isn't a list of cities by cost of living – it may be a list that includes other factors but NYC just isn't 7th on any list of pure cost of living.

Forbes has lists that combine cost of living with other factors such as median income, unemployment stats etc.

The Kiplinger list already posted by pure cost column.

Sorry Joe but that isn't a list of cities by cost of living – it may be a list that includes other factors but NYC just isn't 7th on any list of pure cost of living.

Forbes has lists that combine cost of living with other factors such as median income, unemployment stats etc.

The Kiplinger list already posted by pure cost column.

Wait — you even think that it is more expensive to live in the Seattle area because of government regulation? Really?

Maybe you're right. Without government regulations, people could start building slums to keep the costs down.

Wait — you even think that it is more expensive to live in the Seattle area because of government regulation? Really?

Maybe you're right. Without government regulations, people could start building slums to keep the costs down.

That was by cost of rental, which is the barometer I always go by myself, since the bulk of citizens in any city are always renters, and the backbone of the populace. Which Kiplinger link? I can't find it.

By pure cost of living I found this:

http://www.mercer.com/costoflivingpr

Still no Seattle.

That was by cost of rental, which is the barometer I always go by myself, since the bulk of citizens in any city are always renters, and the backbone of the populace. Which Kiplinger link? I can't find it.

By pure cost of living I found this:

http://www.mercer.com/costoflivingpr

Still no Seattle.

Is it a coincidence that we have the highest minimum wage, decently paid public employees, and the strongest economy in the country?

Could it be there is a correlation, even causation, between wages and a thriving economy?

The Republicans aren't going to be happy until the entire middle class has been eradicated. Any theories on how great our economy will be then?

Is it a coincidence that we have the highest minimum wage, decently paid public employees, and the strongest economy in the country?

Could it be there is a correlation, even causation, between wages and a thriving economy?

The Republicans aren't going to be happy until the entire middle class has been eradicated. Any theories on how great our economy will be then?

Could you provide a link for the strongest economy in the country statement?

We`also have no income tax for corporations or individuals and one of the most regressive tax systems in the country – beware of fallacious cause and effect remarks.

Making this an issue for the entire future of the middle class is a straw man – the question here is how can we preserve service for all people, but skewing towards the low-income, and adjusting the driver's compensation system should be on the table.

We should use lower wage union drivers before paying overtime to top earners.

Could you provide a link for the strongest economy in the country statement?

We`also have no income tax for corporations or individuals and one of the most regressive tax systems in the country – beware of fallacious cause and effect remarks.

Making this an issue for the entire future of the middle class is a straw man – the question here is how can we preserve service for all people, but skewing towards the low-income, and adjusting the driver's compensation system should be on the table.

We should use lower wage union drivers before paying overtime to top earners.

You're expecting people to report on the relationships of the things you detailed, of which any such reporting would effectively rip a new asshole of an entire political ideology whose adherents represent (being charitable) about 25% to 33% of Washington's advertising revenue? Ha ha ha ha ha.

You're expecting people to report on the relationships of the things you detailed, of which any such reporting would effectively rip a new asshole of an entire political ideology whose adherents represent (being charitable) about 25% to 33% of Washington's advertising revenue? Ha ha ha ha ha.

Joe – my point was that Seattle isn't close to the top and your list wasn't cost of living and it wasn't. I don't know what bulk of citizens means. Renter are the backbone of the populace???? What a bunch of drivel.

“Still no Seattle” but the top US city is NYC on your list

The link was posted before but here it is again

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/

Joe – my point was that Seattle isn't close to the top and your list wasn't cost of living and it wasn't. I don't know what bulk of citizens means. Renter are the backbone of the populace???? What a bunch of drivel.

“Still no Seattle” but the top US city is NYC on your list

The link was posted before but here it is again

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/

My point about rentals is that mathematically, in nearly every major city, rental-dwellers typically outnumber actual home owners. The 'bulk' of the populace within a city's actual borders.

My point about rentals is that mathematically, in nearly every major city, rental-dwellers typically outnumber actual home owners. The 'bulk' of the populace within a city's actual borders.

Hwy CID: The reason the US was more able to do without a social “saftey net” in the past was because the wife was it. If huddy got sick or injured, she could go to work, because the family could live on one income. Now that wages have eroded over the years, and it require two incomes to keeps your head above water, guess what? You have to rely on the government for help, since the companies won't. Yet, the argument goes that no family deserves to live on one income (see ECB's middle class envy vs Elizabeth Warren's book “Two Income Trap”) and that the government should not provide anything, even benefits that are offered in practically every other SOLVENT industrialized county. Maybe you simply advocate living paycheck to paycheck and permanent instability. Well, when enough people live that way, and the bottom falls out, what do you think happens? Ask a cop in Greece, Spain, France, and soon, Germany.

Hwy CID: The reason the US was more able to do without a social “saftey net” in the past was because the wife was it. If huddy got sick or injured, she could go to work, because the family could live on one income. Now that wages have eroded over the years, and it require two incomes to keeps your head above water, guess what? You have to rely on the government for help, since the companies won't. Yet, the argument goes that no family deserves to live on one income (see ECB's middle class envy vs Elizabeth Warren's book “Two Income Trap”) and that the government should not provide anything, even benefits that are offered in practically every other SOLVENT industrialized county. Maybe you simply advocate living paycheck to paycheck and permanent instability. Well, when enough people live that way, and the bottom falls out, what do you think happens? Ask a cop in Greece, Spain, France, and soon, Germany.

Really? You think a family of four can live on $200 a month groceries? Clearly you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Really? You think a family of four can live on $200 a month groceries? Clearly you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

These numbers are pertinent:

http://www.mybudget360.com/the-perfect-46000-bu…

These numbers are pertinent:

http://www.mybudget360.com/the-perfect-46000-bu…

I suppose if you lived on water, Wonder Bread, Jiffy, and off-brand Mac & Cheese you could do that.

I suppose if you lived on water, Wonder Bread, Jiffy, and off-brand Mac & Cheese you could do that.

morning,

Minor correction – part-time workers are NOT given a chance to work 40 hours per week – except in rare instances where they can do a vacation relief and fill in for another (part-time) Operator. Most part time drivers work less than 30 hours per week. The piece that you cited is a good one, and has some specific recommendations that I made to the union regarding potential contract changes. One with more information about the part-time Metro workforce is this one:
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04… .

You are correct – I agree with much of what has been discussed here, although usually not when it's cloaked in incorrect assumptions and other issues. I do not believe that we need to hike the County sales tax, nor should we (as pointed out – it's regressive. I pay taxes too, folks). I also believe – as was recommended by the County's own audit (http://tinyurl.com/yyreh4f) that the County could save money by negotiating changes in how overtime is assigned, and what work part-time Operators can do. Currently, part-time Operators cannot work weekends, evenings after 8:30 pm, holidays, or over 7 hours 59 minutes in a single day (exception being rare vacation reliefs). This means that many pieces of work are assigned to full-time drivers – at overtime – just to avoid paying part-timers even 60 seconds of overtime.

Vacant part-time work is often assigned to full-time drivers on the Extra Board, sometimes this means paying these drivers “bonus time” – or for time not actually spent behind the wheel – because of daily guarantees. This means that some drivers get assigned to driver for 4 hours, but get paid for up to 8.

Vacant full-time work according to the contract must be filled by full-time Operators. Part time Operators have no such guarantee. 60% of vacant part-time work (folks on vacation, sick, etc.) is assigned to full-time Operators.

So yes – I agree that there's money to be saved there. I still object to the complete lack of focus on top-heavy King County administration and others (even at Metro) and inflated salaries they earn. I have an article about that, too: http://tinyurl.com/y4f5nkb

I believe that there's substantial savings to be found in King County – without cutting service, without raising the sales tax, and without laying off Operators or cutting wages and benefits if only the political will were there to support it, and the public outcry to demand it. Instead, politicos and lazy journalists buy into the anti-union, anti-frontline worker garbage and jump on the bash'em bandwagon.

morning,

Minor correction – part-time workers are NOT given a chance to work 40 hours per week – except in rare instances where they can do a vacation relief and fill in for another (part-time) Operator. Most part time drivers work less than 30 hours per week. The piece that you cited is a good one, and has some specific recommendations that I made to the union regarding potential contract changes. One with more information about the part-time Metro workforce is this one:
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04… .

You are correct – I agree with much of what has been discussed here, although usually not when it's cloaked in incorrect assumptions and other issues. I do not believe that we need to hike the County sales tax, nor should we (as pointed out – it's regressive. I pay taxes too, folks). I also believe – as was recommended by the County's own audit (http://tinyurl.com/yyreh4f) that the County could save money by negotiating changes in how overtime is assigned, and what work part-time Operators can do. Currently, part-time Operators cannot work weekends, evenings after 8:30 pm, holidays, or over 7 hours 59 minutes in a single day (exception being rare vacation reliefs). This means that many pieces of work are assigned to full-time drivers – at overtime – just to avoid paying part-timers even 60 seconds of overtime.

Vacant part-time work is often assigned to full-time drivers on the Extra Board, sometimes this means paying these drivers “bonus time” – or for time not actually spent behind the wheel – because of daily guarantees. This means that some drivers get assigned to driver for 4 hours, but get paid for up to 8.

Vacant full-time work according to the contract must be filled by full-time Operators. Part time Operators have no such guarantee. 60% of vacant part-time work (folks on vacation, sick, etc.) is assigned to full-time Operators.

So yes – I agree that there's money to be saved there. I still object to the complete lack of focus on top-heavy King County administration and others (even at Metro) and inflated salaries they earn. I have an article about that, too: http://tinyurl.com/y4f5nkb

I believe that there's substantial savings to be found in King County – without cutting service, without raising the sales tax, and without laying off Operators or cutting wages and benefits if only the political will were there to support it, and the public outcry to demand it. Instead, politicos and lazy journalists buy into the anti-union, anti-frontline worker garbage and jump on the bash'em bandwagon.

Federal Withholding
Social Security
State Withilding (unemployment insurance)
Union dues

add it up. The tax refund usually goes toward unpaid bills for most. Note I didin't include clothing, home repair, or even entertaniment (like a movie) in the figures

Federal Withholding
Social Security
State Withilding (unemployment insurance)
Union dues

add it up. The tax refund usually goes toward unpaid bills for most. Note I didin't include clothing, home repair, or even entertaniment (like a movie) in the figures

So are you the guy who slammed the door in my face (and nearly clipped the foot of the guy getting on in front of me) while your bus was totally stationary two weeks ago, after he arrived 3-4 minutes early? You think I'm referring to times where people are running up only as the bus is pulling away?

I see a lot of drivers defend their actions by twisting the given examples into defensible straw men while taking pot shots… usually when they know the comment they're repsonding to is on point. Crappy landlords do the same disingenuous thing on apartment review websites.

So are you the guy who slammed the door in my face (and nearly clipped the foot of the guy getting on in front of me) while your bus was totally stationary two weeks ago, after he arrived 3-4 minutes early? You think I'm referring to times where people are running up only as the bus is pulling away?

I see a lot of drivers defend their actions by twisting the given examples into defensible straw men while taking pot shots… usually when they know the comment they're repsonding to is on point. Crappy landlords do the same disingenuous thing on apartment review websites.

here's your link

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/…

Lowering wages isn't the answer. $28 per hour isn't extravagant for a dangerous job that requires skill and training. As we fire gov't employees and/or lower wages, we hurt our economy. Taxes are at a 60 year low. We need to raise revenue.

here's your link

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/…

Lowering wages isn't the answer. $28 per hour isn't extravagant for a dangerous job that requires skill and training. As we fire gov't employees and/or lower wages, we hurt our economy. Taxes are at a 60 year low. We need to raise revenue.

This is what unions did 30-60 years ago. Today, they overcharge their employees for unions dues, siphon the money to a handful of top officials who pocket the difference, and hang injusticed workers out to dry when they need the union the most.

This is what unions did 30-60 years ago. Today, they overcharge their employees for unions dues, siphon the money to a handful of top officials who pocket the difference, and hang injusticed workers out to dry when they need the union the most.

To quote you – where are your facts asserting that this is what unions do?

To quote you – where are your facts asserting that this is what unions do?

“see, jeff doesn't wwant to raise taxes on poor people, he just wants to sit there and have a service cut that impacts poor people”

Those aren't the only 2 choices, no matter how much Dow Constantine may wish you to believe it.

“see, jeff doesn't wwant to raise taxes on poor people, he just wants to sit there and have a service cut that impacts poor people”

Those aren't the only 2 choices, no matter how much Dow Constantine may wish you to believe it.

Here's a fun fact: If you don't own a car, you can't drive the bus for Metro. I've had a couple of drivers confirm this to me… else I probably would have applied long ago.

Many of the officials who govern King County Metro, as well as many of the drivers, don't actually use the system they control. So it's no wonder they pay little to no mind to the plight of riders who have to put up with delays, rising fares and bad treatment. It's not their problem!

Here's a fun fact: If you don't own a car, you can't drive the bus for Metro. I've had a couple of drivers confirm this to me… else I probably would have applied long ago.

Many of the officials who govern King County Metro, as well as many of the drivers, don't actually use the system they control. So it's no wonder they pay little to no mind to the plight of riders who have to put up with delays, rising fares and bad treatment. It's not their problem!

It's worth noting that no one's arguing the union shouldn't exist… but that the union's operations are sorely out of whack with its employees' needs, and the folly is assuming the union is inherently good or inherently bad. Arguing either polarized stance is senseless.

It's worth noting that no one's arguing the union shouldn't exist… but that the union's operations are sorely out of whack with its employees' needs, and the folly is assuming the union is inherently good or inherently bad. Arguing either polarized stance is senseless.

An aside: This kind of shows how much people take their jobs for granted. Those making $40-60K a year might want to imagine life on $12-15 an hour. I'm sure many of you have families. How would you manage if you lost your jobs and had no other recourse than the latter?

An aside: This kind of shows how much people take their jobs for granted. Those making $40-60K a year might want to imagine life on $12-15 an hour. I'm sure many of you have families. How would you manage if you lost your jobs and had no other recourse than the latter?

This is actually far and away the best point in this overlong comments thread. The conversation's out of place in focusing on the wages of drivers themselves or the merits of their union benefits… when it should focus on management that clearly has a lot of room for improvement, as well as allocating hours to lower-rung drivers that could use the money a lot more than the overpaid (and possibly overworked) drivers at the top.

This is actually far and away the best point in this overlong comments thread. The conversation's out of place in focusing on the wages of drivers themselves or the merits of their union benefits… when it should focus on management that clearly has a lot of room for improvement, as well as allocating hours to lower-rung drivers that could use the money a lot more than the overpaid (and possibly overworked) drivers at the top.

Wibbles:

For profits also get government funding. Think of the tax breaks for Boeing and Microsoft. While not direct, it may as well be considering the budget holes that these breaks create (not that I'm against tax breaks for companies that hire folks and pay good wages, just making a point).

Wibbles:

For profits also get government funding. Think of the tax breaks for Boeing and Microsoft. While not direct, it may as well be considering the budget holes that these breaks create (not that I'm against tax breaks for companies that hire folks and pay good wages, just making a point).

Joe – bull

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0905160.html

4 of the top 10 cities by population in the US have less than 50% renters.

Cost of living indexes include rental costs – your using rental rates as a single metric is weak.

Joe – bull

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0905160.html

4 of the top 10 cities by population in the US have less than 50% renters.

Cost of living indexes include rental costs – your using rental rates as a single metric is weak.

Here's another link re” what it takes to live in Seattle:

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/places/53033…

This assumes that you will never buy any kind of home; subtract $300 for healthcare, assuming there is no co-pay or that the benefot never gets used. The rent is lowballed, IMO. Check out the wage compaisisons also.

Here's another link re” what it takes to live in Seattle:

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/places/53033…

This assumes that you will never buy any kind of home; subtract $300 for healthcare, assuming there is no co-pay or that the benefot never gets used. The rent is lowballed, IMO. Check out the wage compaisisons also.

thanks Sarge – haven't had a chance to peruse it, but a quick scan shows that Seattle only moved into the top ten this year – the recession hit here late and the government layoffs are just starting in earnest so we'll see where we are next year – d

thanks Sarge – haven't had a chance to peruse it, but a quick scan shows that Seattle only moved into the top ten this year – the recession hit here late and the government layoffs are just starting in earnest so we'll see where we are next year – d

Jeff once again I made a mistake – this time I left out the word 'not' – I meant to say part-time workers are not allowed 40 hours while FTEs are given the chance to work OT. I hope you could see that I was making an honest effort. -:)

Jeff once again I made a mistake – this time I left out the word 'not' – I meant to say part-time workers are not allowed 40 hours while FTEs are given the chance to work OT. I hope you could see that I was making an honest effort. -:)

Gomez,

If that happened to you, I hope you got what my passengers get when I inadvertently close the door while someone is still boarding – an apology. We're human beings performing some repetitive tasks. We make mistakes. A contributing factor on the door closing thing is that some passengers will wait behind the door (to stand out of the way of departing passengers) in a blind spot located behind the right-side inward facing passenger seat. We can't see you there, and can sometimes not react quickly enough to the boarding passenger who appears from this blindspot to whip a quick left into the bus. It's nobody's fault – just something we all need to be careful of. As to the guy's foot – those doors have extremely sensitive pressure switch sensors built all down their length along that rubber part. I could slam that door on you all day and you'd never get a bruise – the door automatically pops open.

As to “arriving early” – there's no such thing. Those times on the schedules and on the kiosks and bus stop poles are DEPARTURE times. Also not all times on the post are times for that location but timepoints for a nearby major stop. That way if you see that the Route 28 “leaves 65th NW and NW 8th St. at 8:15, you can probably plan on it arriving at 8th and Market about 4 minutes later; or leaving 75th and 8th 4 minutes earlier.

You may find it irritating that drivers defend themselves against common complaints, but the reality is that you don't see it from our end. We get complaints all the time about the most ridiculous things (like “bus driver ARRIVED 3 minutes early”). My last customer complaint was from a young woman who complained that I honked my horn at her and “hollered something unintelligible” out my window. What happened? She exited the bus, took an immediate 180 IN FRONT OF MY MOVING BUS as I left the zone, not only stepping in front of my moving bus but had she made it past the bus she'd likely have been creamed by a car passing on my left. Did I honk my horn to get her attention? You're damn right. Did I “holler” something along the lines of “stepping in front of a moving bus is extremely dangerous – use the crosswalk!”

You're damn right I did.

Gomez,

If that happened to you, I hope you got what my passengers get when I inadvertently close the door while someone is still boarding – an apology. We're human beings performing some repetitive tasks. We make mistakes. A contributing factor on the door closing thing is that some passengers will wait behind the door (to stand out of the way of departing passengers) in a blind spot located behind the right-side inward facing passenger seat. We can't see you there, and can sometimes not react quickly enough to the boarding passenger who appears from this blindspot to whip a quick left into the bus. It's nobody's fault – just something we all need to be careful of. As to the guy's foot – those doors have extremely sensitive pressure switch sensors built all down their length along that rubber part. I could slam that door on you all day and you'd never get a bruise – the door automatically pops open.

As to “arriving early” – there's no such thing. Those times on the schedules and on the kiosks and bus stop poles are DEPARTURE times. Also not all times on the post are times for that location but timepoints for a nearby major stop. That way if you see that the Route 28 “leaves 65th NW and NW 8th St. at 8:15, you can probably plan on it arriving at 8th and Market about 4 minutes later; or leaving 75th and 8th 4 minutes earlier.

You may find it irritating that drivers defend themselves against common complaints, but the reality is that you don't see it from our end. We get complaints all the time about the most ridiculous things (like “bus driver ARRIVED 3 minutes early”). My last customer complaint was from a young woman who complained that I honked my horn at her and “hollered something unintelligible” out my window. What happened? She exited the bus, took an immediate 180 IN FRONT OF MY MOVING BUS as I left the zone, not only stepping in front of my moving bus but had she made it past the bus she'd likely have been creamed by a car passing on my left. Did I honk my horn to get her attention? You're damn right. Did I “holler” something along the lines of “stepping in front of a moving bus is extremely dangerous – use the crosswalk!”

You're damn right I did.

morning,

Most definitely – and it's honestly appreciated. I prefer a good productive conversation to tit-for-tat any day.

morning,

Most definitely – and it's honestly appreciated. I prefer a good productive conversation to tit-for-tat any day.

Agreed. The abuse our drivers deal with on a daily basis is worth far more than $28 per hour in my opinion. We definitely need to raise revenue and perhaps ending the ride free zone could help.

Agreed. The abuse our drivers deal with on a daily basis is worth far more than $28 per hour in my opinion. We definitely need to raise revenue and perhaps ending the ride free zone could help.

I have some driver friends, Jeff, and trust me when I say I understand the scope of a lot of the crap you're paid to deal with. It's not a safe or easy job. The nature of the job also doesn't absolve anyone or any population at large from reprehensible behavior.

What happened to me has actually happened a few times, and several times more to friends of mine who aren't exactly impunctual, misbehaving or volatile riders, and I'm fairly easy to deal with IRL myself. Each time in my case I reported the incident to Metro with a detailed explanation and got nothing more than a token apology from customer service. On several occasions I saw many of the same drivers on their same cushy morning routes, so clearly no real punishments other than maybe a 'stern talking to' and a piece of paper in their file was meted out. So it goes.

I have some driver friends, Jeff, and trust me when I say I understand the scope of a lot of the crap you're paid to deal with. It's not a safe or easy job. The nature of the job also doesn't absolve anyone or any population at large from reprehensible behavior.

What happened to me has actually happened a few times, and several times more to friends of mine who aren't exactly impunctual, misbehaving or volatile riders, and I'm fairly easy to deal with IRL myself. Each time in my case I reported the incident to Metro with a detailed explanation and got nothing more than a token apology from customer service. On several occasions I saw many of the same drivers on their same cushy morning routes, so clearly no real punishments other than maybe a 'stern talking to' and a piece of paper in their file was meted out. So it goes.

Real Stories of Metro Transit’s Meanest, Weirdest, Cheapest, Horniest, and Smelliest Passengers
http://tinyurl.com/2vrbvk

The Others – Part 1: Passengers
People Who Make Our Day
(Not in a Good Way)

http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/06…

Real Stories of Metro Transit’s Meanest, Weirdest, Cheapest, Horniest, and Smelliest Passengers
http://tinyurl.com/2vrbvk

The Others – Part 1: Passengers
People Who Make Our Day
(Not in a Good Way)

http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/06…

Gomez,

What do you think *should* happen to a driver?

Believe me – being called in front of your supervisor and having a validated customer complaint in your file is no picnic. Get enough of them and you lose your job.

Again – the door closing thing is pretty common, and often contributed to by people lunging in through the door at the last second, or pealing around the corner from the blind spot. It's unfortunate, when it happens to me I'm embarassed and apologetic. As there's no injury caused (only a bit of surprise) and it happens every day – what “punishment” do you think that drivers should be subjected to? Do you think they should be fired? Pulled off their routes? Fined? Cripes, it's a simple mistake, passengers are often part of the problem, and those doors couldn't squash a squishy fly. No driver wants to close a door on anyone, and no driver tries to. You want 'em drawn and quartered, or what?

And what “cushy morning route” is this you're referring to? I drive a morning route and there's nothing “cushy” about it.

Gomez,

What do you think *should* happen to a driver?

Believe me – being called in front of your supervisor and having a validated customer complaint in your file is no picnic. Get enough of them and you lose your job.

Again – the door closing thing is pretty common, and often contributed to by people lunging in through the door at the last second, or pealing around the corner from the blind spot. It's unfortunate, when it happens to me I'm embarassed and apologetic. As there's no injury caused (only a bit of surprise) and it happens every day – what “punishment” do you think that drivers should be subjected to? Do you think they should be fired? Pulled off their routes? Fined? Cripes, it's a simple mistake, passengers are often part of the problem, and those doors couldn't squash a squishy fly. No driver wants to close a door on anyone, and no driver tries to. You want 'em drawn and quartered, or what?

And what “cushy morning route” is this you're referring to? I drive a morning route and there's nothing “cushy” about it.

On an individual basis, this view may have merit. As a member of Local 587, the union representing Metro Transit workers – I do not feel this is the case.

It's flawed – like any organization – but our leadership is democratically elected, and major acts of the union (like representing “injusticed workers”) is also subjected to a vote of the membership. Local 587 does an overall good job of representing its' employees interests, and I'm unaware of any of our Executive officers “pocketing” anything other than the salaries that they earn.

On an individual basis, this view may have merit. As a member of Local 587, the union representing Metro Transit workers – I do not feel this is the case.

It's flawed – like any organization – but our leadership is democratically elected, and major acts of the union (like representing “injusticed workers”) is also subjected to a vote of the membership. Local 587 does an overall good job of representing its' employees interests, and I'm unaware of any of our Executive officers “pocketing” anything other than the salaries that they earn.

It's an in-city commuter route with about four runs a day, and there are a LOT of these both suburban and within Seattle. I'd love to name drop a route number but I don't need people finding and harassing me over comments from this thread… so if outing me was your intent, too bad.

Drivers I know confirm many of these routes (including mine) are very easy. Commuters get on and pay their fares, and you drive away. There's little to no challenge or delay, even on rare occasions when you run into heavy traffic.

It's an in-city commuter route with about four runs a day, and there are a LOT of these both suburban and within Seattle. I'd love to name drop a route number but I don't need people finding and harassing me over comments from this thread… so if outing me was your intent, too bad.

Drivers I know confirm many of these routes (including mine) are very easy. Commuters get on and pay their fares, and you drive away. There's little to no challenge or delay, even on rare occasions when you run into heavy traffic.

As for what I think should happen to the driver… uh, I don't know… move him to another, more difficult route? Let someone who isn't an asshole drive the easy commuter route instead?

As for what I think should happen to the driver… uh, I don't know… move him to another, more difficult route? Let someone who isn't an asshole drive the easy commuter route instead?

Your opinions depend in large part on what benefits you're currently getting, and what problems you have/haven't had with them. Everyone else's mileage may vary. And that of course comes with the caveat that you're leaving out a ton of details.

Your opinions depend in large part on what benefits you're currently getting, and what problems you have/haven't had with them. Everyone else's mileage may vary. And that of course comes with the caveat that you're leaving out a ton of details.

Are they serious? You can live on less than $9 an hour in Seattle? It isn't just the rent that's low-balled. They must be stuck in the 1980s. I just looked at what I've spent on food for the last 6 months, around $800 a month, and I live alone! That includes meals out, but I rarely dine out, and when I do, it's usually just a burger and coke or beer.

Are they serious? You can live on less than $9 an hour in Seattle? It isn't just the rent that's low-balled. They must be stuck in the 1980s. I just looked at what I've spent on food for the last 6 months, around $800 a month, and I live alone! That includes meals out, but I rarely dine out, and when I do, it's usually just a burger and coke or beer.

But you must give up more! A big cup of austerity all around, served up on an environmentally green platter!

But you must give up more! A big cup of austerity all around, served up on an environmentally green platter!

Damn, $800 a month? I feel like I'm a bit wasteful at $300-400 a month, and I also live alone and eat out now and then.

But still, yeah, that list lowballs a few things… and I say that as someone who's lucked into paying less for some items than those estimates. A sole person with no car, a very cheap living situation and, say, no other debt than a student loan payment can probably break even with $20-21K.

Damn, $800 a month? I feel like I'm a bit wasteful at $300-400 a month, and I also live alone and eat out now and then.

But still, yeah, that list lowballs a few things… and I say that as someone who's lucked into paying less for some items than those estimates. A sole person with no car, a very cheap living situation and, say, no other debt than a student loan payment can probably break even with $20-21K.

I love that the guy doesn't include anything under 'health insurance'.

I love that the guy doesn't include anything under 'health insurance'.

One-third are part time, by union contract, but other than that little correction, yup.

One-third are part time, by union contract, but other than that little correction, yup.

Peristaltor,

Incorrect. Metro can cut as much as 45% of all available shifts as part-time. According to the last set of pick lists, there were 1,762 full-time and 1,045 part-time Operators. That's actuallty 37%.

So the percentage of part-timers (currently) working as drivers is 37%; the percentage of the total *shifts* is 45%. Some part timers work Dual Tripper Assignments (DTA's) – split shifts that amount to less than 7 hours per day.

See the contract:
http://www.atu587.com/documents/ComputerVersion…

15.2.D The number of Part-Time Transit Operators, with each dual tripper Operator counted as two Operators, shall not exceed 45% of the total number of Transit Operators.

“Almost half” is accurate.

Peristaltor,

Incorrect. Metro can cut as much as 45% of all available shifts as part-time. According to the last set of pick lists, there were 1,762 full-time and 1,045 part-time Operators. That's actuallty 37%.

So the percentage of part-timers (currently) working as drivers is 37%; the percentage of the total *shifts* is 45%. Some part timers work Dual Tripper Assignments (DTA's) – split shifts that amount to less than 7 hours per day.

See the contract:
http://www.atu587.com/documents/ComputerVersion…

15.2.D The number of Part-Time Transit Operators, with each dual tripper Operator counted as two Operators, shall not exceed 45% of the total number of Transit Operators.

“Almost half” is accurate.

I would advise against raising fares. Of course, Metro will anyway, and they'll eventually phase out transfers and force non-passers to pay for each leg of a trip.

And what's funny is that fares account for about a quarter of revenue… so there isn't even much of a point to raising fares other than to price out poor people and maybe cover a smidgen of their shortfall.

I would advise against raising fares. Of course, Metro will anyway, and they'll eventually phase out transfers and force non-passers to pay for each leg of a trip.

And what's funny is that fares account for about a quarter of revenue… so there isn't even much of a point to raising fares other than to price out poor people and maybe cover a smidgen of their shortfall.

And BTW I don't think I'm going to trust one source on the 'Seattle has America's best economy' argument, especially when that supposedly unbiased polling source no one's ever heard of is a sponsor of the Puget Sound Business Journal.

And BTW I don't think I'm going to trust one source on the 'Seattle has America's best economy' argument, especially when that supposedly unbiased polling source no one's ever heard of is a sponsor of the Puget Sound Business Journal.

It's not hard if you know how to shop. And no, you don't do it by buying processed garbage.

Anyway your math is wrong, the sum/month is about 300ish bucks to get 800/month being 2.5x too much money.

75 a week is plenty of money to feed a family healthy, high-quality food on. interestingly, this is one part of the country where that is very doable on smaller budgets without even having to buy in bulk or large quantities. it is a bonus of living in such a fertile area.

It's not hard if you know how to shop. And no, you don't do it by buying processed garbage.

Anyway your math is wrong, the sum/month is about 300ish bucks to get 800/month being 2.5x too much money.

75 a week is plenty of money to feed a family healthy, high-quality food on. interestingly, this is one part of the country where that is very doable on smaller budgets without even having to buy in bulk or large quantities. it is a bonus of living in such a fertile area.

now you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. that sort of processed garbage is more expensive than healthy meat and vegetables.

now you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. that sort of processed garbage is more expensive than healthy meat and vegetables.

The food, childcare and transport numbers are pretty specious. Easy to keep those lower than listed and save the difference.

Yes, it involves actually having friends and community rather than being isolated in your house with xboxes for you and little rugrat, but it's not some sort of impossible, difficult or unpleasant thing to live frugally via the benefits of community and social networks.

The food, childcare and transport numbers are pretty specious. Easy to keep those lower than listed and save the difference.

Yes, it involves actually having friends and community rather than being isolated in your house with xboxes for you and little rugrat, but it's not some sort of impossible, difficult or unpleasant thing to live frugally via the benefits of community and social networks.

Difference between excessive regulation and none. Shouldn't bust out with
the false binary.

Difference between excessive regulation and none. Shouldn't bust out with
the false binary.

You see. This is the exact type of information that was completely ignored in the “reporting” of this story. So 25 hours per week at $19.00 means you would make $24,700 per year when you are starting out.

That seems pretty low to me, especially considering it seems from the hours issues that you bring up that it would be difficult or perhaps impossible to work multiple jobs.

Anyway, thanks for the info and keep up the good work.

You see. This is the exact type of information that was completely ignored in the “reporting” of this story. So 25 hours per week at $19.00 means you would make $24,700 per year when you are starting out.

That seems pretty low to me, especially considering it seems from the hours issues that you bring up that it would be difficult or perhaps impossible to work multiple jobs.

Anyway, thanks for the info and keep up the good work.

Joe,

Not 25 hours per week – 2.5 hours per DAY. That's only 12.5 hours per week, or at the current first tier rate of $19.93 per hour, a GROSS of $12954.50 per year. After taxes, union dues, and insurance premiums (part-timers pay 30% of the cost of their own health care premiums, 100% of the cost of dental premiums if they choose it, and 100% of premiums to cover spouse and/or childre) and the number gets a lot smaller.

I'm in the King County Employee database for last year both at lbloom (Excel file) and the Tacoma News Tribune (searchable by name). Take a look at how much I earned in 2009 working the most that I could, signing up for all extra work available to me.

Hint: I couldn't afford to put a new roof on my mansion. Boo-hoo.

More at “Metro Transit's Working Poor”
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

Joe,

Not 25 hours per week – 2.5 hours per DAY. That's only 12.5 hours per week, or at the current first tier rate of $19.93 per hour, a GROSS of $12954.50 per year. After taxes, union dues, and insurance premiums (part-timers pay 30% of the cost of their own health care premiums, 100% of the cost of dental premiums if they choose it, and 100% of premiums to cover spouse and/or childre) and the number gets a lot smaller.

I'm in the King County Employee database for last year both at lbloom (Excel file) and the Tacoma News Tribune (searchable by name). Take a look at how much I earned in 2009 working the most that I could, signing up for all extra work available to me.

Hint: I couldn't afford to put a new roof on my mansion. Boo-hoo.

More at “Metro Transit's Working Poor”
http://pstransitoperators.wordpress.com/2010/04…

Go to http://www.lbloom.com and look at the overtime that transit is paying along with corrections and police. And the wages paid to staff of the council. The cost of a new table for Dow at a cost of over $30,000. Whats wrong with the table Sims left behind? Makes me sick as a county employee.

Go to http://www.lbloom.com and look at the overtime that transit is paying along with corrections and police. And the wages paid to staff of the council. The cost of a new table for Dow at a cost of over $30,000. Whats wrong with the table Sims left behind? Makes me sick as a county employee.

Thanks for the info and the blog. Good luck in bargaining. You'll have my support.

ECB wants Joni Balter's job.

I know your type Gomez. You never have your fare ready but complain about buses running late. You stand where you can't be seen and when you are almost caught in a closing door think it has nothing to do with you. You pull the stop signal at the last moment and then complain about the fast braking. You run up to the door late as the bus is pulling away expecying the driver to stop without a thought that he is likely to be rear ended by the bus behinnd him. You never ever consider your role in anything but call in at the drop of a hat, enhance your complaint to make it sound as bad as possible, and then complain when the driver is back on his cushy job the next day. You ever been assaulted at your job Gomez? Punched, spit on/ Lot od bus drivers have. And that's not even the worse part of the job. Putting up with whiny ass self entitled unaware assholes like you is by far the hardest part of the job. Fuck you!

Hi, Buys Driver, I believe you were referring to Gomze.

Can the trolls try a little harder, plz?

Sounds like you LOVE your job.
Quit bitching and get to work. There are a million unemployed people right now that would give their right arm to have your jobs. Your job isn't guaranteed, and neither is a nice day. Sometimes life, and our jobs, suck. Just the way it is.