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Council Should Unite Behind McGinn On The Tunnel Cost Overrun Provision

David Meinert’s column last Friday on the cost overrun provision in the State’s funding legislation for the deep-bore has stimulated a fantastic discussion in the comments. But I’m still waiting for an good answer to Meinert’s core question: Why does every Councilmember other than Mike O’Brien seem to be so dead set on supporting it?

There are actually two questions embedded in this: (1)  Why support the tunnel at all; and (2) Why support it with a condition that is so blatantly not in Seattle’s best interests. (Politically, as Josh pointed out, it’s an indefensible spot.)

Regarding the first question, Richard Conlin’s position is particularly baffling.

Conlin has a long and distinguished history of working on sustainability issues, yet in supporting the deep-bore tunnel, he is at odds with the vast majority of his green base, including some of the City’s most prominent and respected voices on sustainability such as Alan Durning and the Sierra Club.

And the second question is equally baffling, given how the cost overrun provision is both totally unprecedented legislation and such a brazen f.u. from the State to the City of Seattle. One would think that standing up to such an affront would be a political no-brainer for any Seattle politician.

To me, these inconsistencies point back to the balance of power between the Council and the Mayor. Recall that even before McGinn was elected, politicos were predicting that a McGinn mayorship would be crushed by the Council; that the Council, hungry to reassert their power after being dominated by Nickels for eight years would unite against the weak and inexperienced McGinn; and that Council President Conlin would become the most powerful politician in Seattle.

It was hard not interpret last Fall’s rushed 9-0 pro-tunnel vote as a show of unified strength and a shot across McGinn’s bow. Unfortunately, that early dynamic set the stage for what has played out into the dysfunctional schism between the Mayor and Council that we are witnessing currently. Both parties are partly to blame, and both parties ought to start sucking it up and figuring out how to mend that schism for the good of the City they serve.

But in the particular case of the tunnel cost overrun issue, the smartest  path would be for the Council to unite with McGinn and put the pressure back on the State, where it belongs. If the State is so confident that there will be no cost overruns, then it is completely reasonable to ask that the provision be removed. And if that happens, the Mayor and Council are both heroes. McGinn, however, would lose one of his most powerful arguments against the tunnel, an outcome that would no doubt please tunnel supporters.

But could the State pull the plug on the whole thing? At this stage in the game, it seems unlikely. In any case, one thing we should all really stop worrying about is a new elevated structure. No matter how hard the State tried to push that one down our throats, the people of Seattle would never let it happen. No way. (In my view the biggest risk is that we’d end up putting too wide a surface street on the waterfront.)

The cost overrun dilemma presents the Council with an opportunity to show leadership by taking on the State, but it’s also a gamble, as are all political moves. Yes, the tunnel deal could be lost. On the other hand, the Council’s current strategy gives McGinn the upper hand on an issue that is likely to have increasing resonance with the public. What say you, Council?

In the end, if the cost overrun provision is enough to break the deal, then the deal deserves to be broken.


  • giffy

    Can you just import the comments from the previous dozen or so posts on this to save everyone the hassle of repeating themselves?

  • N8

    Sure, remove the cost overrun provision, but replace it with a provision that Seattle pays for any costs resulting from litigation.

  • tvguide

    Blah blah tunnel blah blah blah Council blah blah McGinn/O'Brien blah blah blah save-the-planet surface option blah blah blah conspiracy blah blah blah urbanist jargon with no understanding of what a city is blah blah blah grandma can bicycle to her service job in a worklive art studio blah blah blah media that is nothing but cola with no nutritional value.

    This show is getting tiring. Reruns of the same bad B movie does not news make.

  • N8

    Or the most relevant ones.

  • Appalled

    What the fuck is wrong with all the busybody nay-sayers on this issue? A tunnel is a nice thing. It opens up the waterfront to many other types of uses and enjoyment without a nasty elevated freeway dominating the landscape and driving people away with noise and fumes. The state is offering a chance to radically improve Seattle's crown jewel waterfront. We should seize it and quit the bellyaching.

    This nitpicker bullshit is getting very old. Every day the Mayor delays and the bloggers fume is one more day that old, ugly, unsafe structure stays up.

  • 42-year Seattle Taxpayer

    Appalled: apparently you haven't noticed that this deep-bore tunnel has no exits between SODO and Aurora Ave., thus it carries only about half the traffic found today on the viaduct (there's a REASON the tunnel has only two lanes in each direction, v. the viaduct's three).

    Traffic destined to/from Ballard and Interbay will almost certainly end up on the surface waterfront street. Kinda spoils the “chance to radically improve” the waterfront, doesn't it?

    And opposing the state's threat to burden Seattle taxpayers with any and all cost overruns is NOT nitpicking. Regardless of the likely illegality of the statute as written, the Legislature would be only too happy to rewrite other legislation to redirect funds otherwise destined to Seattle, to divert them into the tunnel cost-overrun budget.

    C'mon Councilmembers (and Council staffers); let's hear some discussion on this. We KNOW you read the blogs, and their comment threads.

  • http://www.derekmyoung.com Derek Young

    The reason that Seattle Councilmembers would support the cap is that it's unlikely Seattle would receive money from the state for the project without it. Pretty simple.

    Maybe a better deal for Seattle could have been had at the time, but I doubt it. In fact the reluctance of the Legislature to support the project was because nobody believed that would be the final cost and Seattle still hadn't been able to decide what it wanted. So the compromise was to commit the dollars but nothing more.

  • Jonah

    Actually TV Guide, because of the tolls and the fact the tunnel has no exits downtown, there will actually be MORE cars along the waterfront with the tunnel than the Surface-Transit alternative; seriously, that's what the models show. So your “it will open the waterfront” argument isn't true at all.

  • Meinert

    does anyone have estimates of how much the tunnel will raise our utility and property taxes (and thus rent)? And then the same for scenarios of the average cost overrun 28% to 100% like we've seen on other projects? Needs to be broken down if Seattle has to pay all vs/ the State having to cover them

    This will make this project real for people.

  • CommonSense

    Blah Blah Blah delaying the project will result cost Blah blah. We don’t care people blah blah. Special interest Blah Blah, The old ways Blah Blah. We don't care the tax payers and hard working families in Seattle Blah Blah.

    The days of public dollar abuse is OVER, we demand accountability from Conlin and Rasmussen.
    One message to the city council, and if they are smart, they will take my message very serious.
    Being an incumbent is not good, being a puppet for the establishment is really bad, and supporting unpopular cost overrun is the worst of all.( paying attention the national election). 2011 is around the corner…

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    The Stranger is reporting that Pete Holmes, City Attorney, has announced that the state has no legal standing on the cost overrun issue.

    This is going to get really touchy really quick if it becomes the City Attorney vs the Council vs the State. That albatross just got a lot bigger.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    “Every day the Mayor delays and the bloggers fume is one more day that old, ugly, unsafe structure stays up.”

    They're not even announcing a scheduled start date for digging yet and have barely penciled in a year in which the viaduct would be torn down anyway: 2016.

    http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Schedu…

  • tvguide

    That supports the Council position, not the Mayor. McGinn continues to be the clown in the circus.

  • morning

    43% voted for the viaduct – 30% voted for the tunnel.

    At most 57% voted no on both options – of the No No voters 56% said they favored the surface/transit option.

    There is no evidence that the citizens of Seattle favor the surface/transit option.

    Let's have a vote and let the number one choice win.

    1. Tunnel
    2. Viaduct
    3. Surface/Transit

    The last poll I know of is from after the advisory vote.

    http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx…

  • Gomez

    And here's the thing about tunnel construction: The surface-transit approach can be implemented on the surface anyway while the tunnel is being built. Then we can see in plain view if their ideas really work or not.

  • N8

    And for these reasons the State is putting the cost overruns on Seattle, cause Seattle is notoriously the worst project manager ever and knowing that it is going to stall and sue the hell out of this, it was best to put the costs of the risks of those behaviors on the Seattle. Thank you to those at the State level that are protecting my non-Seattleite position.

  • N8

    So it sounds like they really opted for a tunnel-surface hybrid…looks like a win-win that everyone should be in favor!

  • N8

    I don't think that it will raise your utility tax at all. This project is being run by the State, not Seattle, so where do you get you cost overrun data from?

  • 42-year Seattle Voter

    Joe Sz: You're wrong. The governor herself has announced that the viaduct will be closed in 2012. I saw and heard her make this promise, and it was crystal clear and unambiguous.

  • Gomez

    “Traffic destined to/from Ballard and Interbay will almost certainly end up on the surface waterfront street.”

    Uh, where is all that traffic going now? They're certainly not getting on Alaskan Way or the viaduct: Highway 99 has no direct thoroughfare to 15th Ave NW. Anyone trying to get to Ballard/Interbay would probably do so along 1st/3rd because Alaskan isn't a practical arterial.

  • Gomez

    Well, they need to confirm all their contractors, engineering plans and funding arrangements before they can set any concrete dates. Setting itemized dates to the day before all the details are set is folly because they're inevitably going to change as details are finalized.

  • Gomez

    Pete Holmes announces a lot of things.

    I'm not in the mood to give Slog extra hits right now. What exactly is Holmes citing as supporting documentation to his claim (I'm assuming he didn't just pull the claim out of his ass)?

  • tvguide

    You haven't been drinking your cola in the morning, try here: Few Voters Support McGinn’s Surface/Transit Option

    http://www.publicola.net/2010/03/29/publiquesti…

  • Gomez

    Ah, transit wonk Dan Bertolet… a slightly more credible voice than Dave Meinert in this debate, in the way a kleptomaniac is slightly more trustworthy than a meth addict.

    Bertolet, like Meinert's Heroes, wants a particular outcome, and will cite only the sources that support his stance for said desired outcome while casually ignoring all other evidence to the contrary.

  • N8

    So the Mayor's own attorney is confident that Seattle can't be on the hook; so stop stalling and just let it go forward and if there are cost overruns Seattle will win in court.

  • gordian

    I will tell you exactly where they go currently. They take the Viaduct north to the Western exit and over to 15th. Taking 1st or 3rd would be a lot slower. If/when the tunnel is built, most people will not want to cross through Lower Queen Anne over to 15th and so will take the waterfront street instead. While I have leaned against the tunnel for a while, it was the notion that Pioneer Square is going to see an extra ~35,000 cars a day that pushed me over the edge. Far from making downtown better, we're about to ruin our biggest historical gem (not that it's not already being ruined, but this would be the death knell).

  • Pine Grove

    Appalled: What the fuck is wrong with all the busybody nay-sayers on this issue? A tunnel is a nice thing. It opens up the waterfront to many other types of uses and enjoyment without a nasty elevated freeway dominating the landscape and driving people away with noise and fumes. The state is offering a chance to radically improve Seattle's crown jewel waterfront. We should seize it and quit the bellyaching.

    Appalled, I absolutely agree with you that a tunnel is an exponential improvement over an elevated waterfront highway. The question at hand isn't so much “to tunnel or not,” it is, “Who's going to get stuck with the bill?” I wish Richard Conlin had been more forthright about the cost overruns provision. I wish he could explain in plain English why Seattle taxpayers have nothing to worry about.

  • Mr. X

    Western, which does provide a pretty direct link to Elliott Ave/15th NW (and doesn't entail getting stuck in street traffic on 1st, 3rd, or 4th for over a mile through downtown). Alaskan actually is a decent arterial at the moment (or would be if it wasn't torn up south of Royal Brougham), but sure won't be if it becomes on of these surface arterial routes. If it wasn't for the occasional train blocking the crossing at Wall/Broad, it would definitely probably be a better option that 1st/3rd.

  • ivan

    Bertolet says:

    “In any case, one thing we should all really stop worrying about is a new elevated structure. No matter how hard the State tried to push that one down our throats, the people of Seattle would never let it happen. No way. (In my view the biggest risk is that we’d end up putting too wide a surface street on the waterfront.)”

    Haha, I'm sure you think so, Dan. But word the ballot this way, and I'd bet you'd be disappointed:

    1. New elevated highway. State pays for all of it, including cost overruns.

    2. Deep-bored tunnel. State pays for it, Seattle pays all cost overruns.

    3. Surface option. State pays nothing.

    New elevated highway would win, Dan, because not everybody in Seattle lives in your little green urbanist bicycle woonerf echo chamber, and because more people than you think want something at the cheapest cost possible.

    As for Holmes, the Legislature doesn't give a shit what he thinks. If the city wants any money from the state for this project, then the city will pay for the overruns, or this project won't happen.

    If that turns out to be wrong, then I'll stand up like a man right here on these threads and admit that I was wrong.

  • N8

    This is a State highway, so it will not be decided by Seattle voters alone, which are who the poll focused on. And the advisory votes are old and I think that the tunnel option that you are referring to was a waterfront lid tunnel that WSDOT said was unsafe (no wonder it had such little support) and the viaduct replacement is no longer on the table.

  • John

    SPU is doing the utility replacement for free? Sweet!

  • N8

    Pine Grove, I wish that the Mayor made that more clear, cause all of the talk seems to be code for this is how he is going to subvert the tunnel.

  • The Seattle Pro Zest

    actually, you're wrong…nothing McGinn has done and nothing any of us say had done one thing to delay the poject for one millisecond.

    We are just talking. Yes, we get it, you don't like it as talking about the mean overrun provision is threatening to the pro tunnel crowd.

    It seems you are following the Richard Conlin “debate is over!” talking point. Good luck with that one, in Seattle! Conlin himself once had a campaign, I think it was against Paige Miller, where her entire theme was she would be decisive and not get bogged down in process. Conlin drew a complete contrast and spoke up for the Seattle process asking people to vote for him because he would listen, listen and listen some more, and how it's notrespectful to turn off debate, etc.

    Apparently you disagree with that Richard Conlin, and he does now, too.

  • zefwagner

    All I have to say is that San Francisco removed their elevated highway and replaced it with a surface/transit solution. Everyone said it would never work and would be a disaster (where will all those cars go?). They were wrong, and they now have a lovely waterfront. People changed their driving habits. So we have a precedent supporting surface/transit. We also have many precedents of deep-bore tunnels going way over budget. We can learn from the past, or we can just keep making the same mistakes. The end.

  • eveil twin.

    you think the stat legislature is going to listen to pete holmes?

    “Oh woops, I fucked up, sooorrrrry!” — Kastama, Clibborn, MMH et al.

    hahahahahahahaha.

    More likely they will ask McKenna to slap down holmes, that's a nice anti seattle position for mckenna, helps him run for gov., he'll be happy to find a way to give a contrary opinion.

    And he'd looooove to be the party that files State of Washington v. Mike McGinn and the City of Seattle. Nothing would improve his electoral chances more.

    His position will be the overrun provision is valid.

  • Come on, Seattle

    As Giffy said in the first post, this is rehashed news.

    Okay, I made this point in a post last week but, here we go again:

    1. We need the tunnel unless you WANT to create gridlock on our roads and highways, and

    2. According to the Attorney General, the provision is unenforceable.

    3. So, if the project runs over budget, the state will have two choices:

    a. Provide the funding to finish the tunnel project or
    b. Abandon a partially-completed tunnel in which it has already invested over $1 billion.

    Dan, this story is old news and the fury over this issue is fear-mongering, plain and simple. Can't you find a real issue to write about?

  • Edog

    I thought conservatives hated unfunded mandates? Har Har Har

  • Edog

    If you look at the slog article, McGinn minces words again, and reveals his boogyman rhetoric is just so much fear. Again, this was never about the overruns, its about Mike finding a way to get his way.

    P.S. this town has viaduct fatigue, even if McGinn stops the tunnel, I believe they'll be a backlash that no one saw coming.

  • Gomez

    “I will tell you exactly where they go currently. They take the Viaduct north to the Western exit and over to 15th. Taking 1st or 3rd would be a lot slower.”

    So then once the highway's gone they'll take (an admittedly crowded) 1st or 4th Avenue to get there. They're actually not going to take Alaskan along the waterfront. It's too far out of the way, doesn't provide a clean thru route to the Elliott arterial and 15th NW, and traffic doesn't move particularly fast along that road even now. 1st and 4th sure as hell won't move any more quickly, but their routes are more direct.

    It's also likely more Ballardites will cut along Denny or via I-5 and Wallingford to bypass Downtown and LQA once the highway closes.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    Except nobody is funding the “transit” portion of surface and transit. Or really most of the “surface” portion either.

    But yeah, I'd love to see them close the Viaduct and do nothing. There would be cries of armageddon, but then it would close and nothing will happen (like during construction on I-5).

  • gordian

    Gomez – what a great idea, except let's just build a surface + transit (there are a ton of great ideas in there regardless of whether or not you do a tunnel) and then see if a tunnel is needed. If Seattle descends into chaos, the sun turns red, and the seas boil, then let's talk about the tunnel. Despite the hysterics around the S+T, humans prove to be remarkably adaptable.

  • Gomez

    I'm going to have to disagree with Alaskan being a good arterial, if for no other reason, due to the 90 degree turn at Wall, the rail crossing, the needed turns to get to Elliott, and naturally occurring bottlenecks all along the waterfront route.

  • Gomez

    Utilities have a built-in maintenance and upgrade budget that's tied to the budget funded by your incumbent electrical rates. The project will just spur along upgrades they needed to eventually do anyway.

    If they say they need to spike your rates to do the needed conversions, they're bluffing and someone's trying to take advantage of the situation.

  • ivan

    For the 999th time, the Embarcadero was a SPUR and not a through highway. It doesn't apply here, and never has.

  • Mr. X

    It's certainly not optimal, but it usually does beat 1st or 3rd during downtown rush hours..

  • Gomez

    Apples, meet oranges.

    The Embarcadero was a spur into a district. The viaduct is a thoroughfare bypassing Downtown. The contexts of the two highways are completely different.

  • dadvocate

    1. The Legislature is not going to revisit the tunnel overrun provision. It passed by a strong majority and they consider the tunnel fait accompli.

    2. The language of the law is highly questionable. “Further provides that any costs in excess of $2.8 billion must be borne by property owners in the Seattle area who benefit from replacing the existing Viaduct with a tunnel.” Who is defined by that and what is the mechanism to force that? The Legislature left that vague and undefined.

    3. There is nothing new here. The Legislation has been in place and unchanged since April of 2009. Mayor McGinn has stated “If I’m elected Mayor, although I disagree with this decision, it will be my job to uphold and execute this agreement. It is not the Mayor’s job to withhold the cooperation of city government in executing this agreement.” The overrun legislation was in place at that time. The Legislature met and adjourned and held a special session. Where was the Mayor when he could have directly lobbied on the issue?

    4. The rebuilt viaduct option is only dead because of the bored tunnel option. It clearly appeared to be the option the state was leaning toward.

    5. If the city reneges on their agreements shouldn't they be on the hook for the millions of dollars already spent in preparing and designing a tunnel? That seems like a more enforceable legal action than the overrun straw man.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    I'm basing this entirely on the WSDOT site and the spoken words of the engineers I chatted with on a viaduct tour during it's inspection closure last year. When did Gregoire say this? I don't remember seeing 2012 in the news.

    That's sort of amazing since there's physically no way the tunnel could be done by then.

  • N8

    You were talking about the tax, not the rate, but usually on a state project like this, WSDOT would have to cover the costs of the utility relocation, not the utility, and thus would have this cost as part of the overall budget for the project.

  • Gomez

    And the State will fund it if the project's scuttled? The State's not going to give SDOT, Metro or ST money to make the upgrades if the project's cancelled… which it won't be barring armaggedon. They'd just allocate the money somewhere else in the state. The funding is not an if/then scenario.

    It's up to the City and King County to fund surface/transit improvements either way.

    Also, I-5 construction was very short term (days) and for the most part did not shut the highway completely down. And when it did, the closures were not long term nor during heavy traffic periods of the year. That was by design.

  • Wells

    Dan's “In the case of the tunnel cost overrun issue, the smart path would be for the Council to unite with McGinn and put the pressure back on the State” ain't all that smart. This is a game, Dan, between insider players who can readily observe and admit that the AWV replacement has been a parade of clowns and the DBT the worst option, and more pertinently, an embarrassment for its main proponents, WSDOT and SDOT directors, Seattle Chamber of Commerce members, people who will never admit mistakes nor being made fools by their incompetent cohorts. The cost overrun issue is their face-saving distraction to keep the truth concealed. However, there's nothing smart about concealing the lie that the DBT is worth further consideration.

    Reconsider Tunnelite and remember that it creates a car-free gardened walkway between the Waterfront and Steinbrueck Park, a spectacular solution. Few will remember that Tunnelite was a compromise between functional idiots.

  • Gomez

    Yeah, 3rd is useless due to the transit corridor, and 1st Avenue is always troublesome. There is always 4th, Westlake and subsequent Triangle thoroughfares, though. If you're right along the Waterfront, I can see staying on Alaskan. But someone passing through from SODO will probably take 4th and/or cut onto another arterial if they know 1st is going to be a disaster.

  • morning

    Yeah, well I didn't need no stickin poll to tell me that the Viaduct was the most popular -;)

    N8 – it does appear that Seattle has the choice – at least between the V and the T.

  • ddbehar

    Dan,

    What does the tunnel have to do with sustainability? How does the tunnel ad CO2 emissions? The environmental spin on this issue is incomprehensible

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I guess we will have to have more buses.
    And with the state highway under ground the only way to get more capacity out if that is with more buses.
    Darn.

    Once the state right of way goes under ground I guess we will have add capacity with a mode other than electric cars that Obama policy is pointed toward.

  • green taco

    No one ever mentions the costs to operate and maintain the tunnel. Lights will be on 24-7, ventilation i.e. big fans at both ends. Diesel generators and all their hardware for power failures. Bigger fans for smoke control in case of fire. Pumps both for normal seepage and sprinkler water. The buildings and power usage to provide safe usage of the tunnel will be enormous, continual and not very green.

  • Anc

    I'm not opposed to a Tunnel (although I am still waiting for the Transit half of 'Tunnel and Transit'), but the cost overrun provision is unacceptable. Take that out and provide the promised transit improvements and I'm onboard.

  • kurisu

    (taxpayer is being sarcastic) :)

  • kurisu

    Pete Holmes is not the mayor's attorney

  • dadvocate

    The Governor announced the Viaduct would be torn down in 2012 prior to the bored tunnel selection. The Viaduct does not need to be removed during the tunnel construction. That is one of the benefits of the tunnel that there will be few traffic impacts during the tunnel construction. However it increases the risk an earthquake could destroy the Viaduct for another 4 years.

  • dadvocate

    The state cannot fund transit options with gas tax money. It is outlawed by the state constitution.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I think you need to swap elevated with Choppaduct before you put that on a ballot.

    Btw, the criteria Dan uses for the State's view of Seattle with the tunnel was magically ignored by surface proponents.
    It would not be zero support, but the minimum.
    Seattle would be on the hook for just as much by the time 3 or more years of bitching passed.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    And the state is not about to pay for the city road improvements.

    How about we take a look at the surface option through the lens of the Washington State Legislature, that would be fun.

  • Selma

    You actually don't know the opportunity costs of this obstruction.

    Maybe there are some contracting benefits that we won't realize because of delay.

    Maybe there are some federal grants we're missing out on because of the uncertainty related to this project.

    Maybe an earthquake will happen in 2015 and the Viaduct won't be replaced by then and thousands of Seattlites will die because we'll have done nothing.

    McGinn has his pivot and all of the “new urbanist” geniuses get to point to cost overruns, road diets, and whatever hot transportation cliches are out there, but the fact of the matter is an unsafe roadway will stand for longer because we're continuing to collectively dither.

  • Barleywine

    Appalled has been “liked” like a MFr, and I think it's because he/she thinks like most of the tax payers and other random folks that make up this city.

    We're tired of the political games. Even tired of the pundits here that I most respect (at least I am). I cannot tell, after all this debate, if the pro-environment, pro-transit people I bow down to are against the tunnel…or against Seattle paying for it.

    Please clear that one up without the spin. Rebuild people are clear. Tunnel-lite people are clear. Surface people are clear.

    I may not agree with them, but they're clear.
    Please________________spill it. Be honest.

  • ediugvt ot ylper ni

    Uh, negative. Go read the article. What Holmes says is that, while the provision is likely unconstitutional, what is clear is that the appropriations bill capped the State's contribution at $2.4 Billion. Thus leaving the question, if there are overruns, who the hell pays?

    The State Legislature says that they will not pay a dime over $2.4 Billion. So let's say there's, what, $100 million in overruns, just to be conservative. The State sends Seattle a bill. We politely decline. Then what happens?

    I'll tell you what happens. Either a) the State AG sues Seattle to enforce the provision, and the whole thing ends up going to the State Supreme Court, or b) the Legislature takes that $100 million out of other Seattle area projects. Or, if it turns out that the provision isn't enforceable after all, then you get a) followed a grand Seattle victory in court, followed by b). Whoopee.

    The point here is not the enforceability of the clause. The point is that the State WILL NOT PAY any overruns, and they have the power to get it out of us one way or the other.

    That's what Holmes was saying.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    double-Negative, the state authorized another 400 million if require.

  • Barleywine

    “We have a lot of very pressing needs in Seattle”

    I thought you were from Shoreline.

  • morning

    they don't authorize an extra $400M – it is part of the $2.82B they have committed to the project – BTW the $400 is mostly a tax on Seattle drivers.

  • jazzerciser

    d—,

    Actually the overun issue has alot to do with sustainabilty. That's because if overruns are paid for by property tax, it will be yet one more case of a hidden perverse incentive for everyone to drive more, as the cost of the roadway will not be borne by the user.

    Thanks Dan B for the blog post.

    and…Go MIke!

    Thanks all

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    What is that 400 million dollars attached to?
    The bill just says 400 million more in possible tolling, to pay for?

    So, anybody think the state would not pass the same FU Seattle cost overrun bill for McGinn's surface option?
    He kills the tunnel, and they love him so much for it they don't put the same provision in a surface option bill?

    How do people think we got here?

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    What stops the state from putting the same provision in a surface option bill?
    Because they love the mayor's spunk?

  • Political Comedy

    Unlike poor leadership and fiscal mismanagement, Seattle voters will not
    forgive additional taxes due to cost overruns for this tunnel. Are you listening City Council? Tom? Sally? Jean? Bruce? Burgess? If you are an aide reading this, you better think about your next job if your boss does not change course. Oh yeah, some people remember the multi-
    million dollars toilets sold for $30,000.

    When Gregoire leaves to be Solicitor General after
    Kagan gets confirmed, Brad Owens will be the governor, until special elections which Dow will probably run etc. Man, like musical chairs.
    I do not think Owens has any special kind of love for Seattle.
    My guess: Retro-fit of the Viaduct or some kind of Choppaduct.

  • morning

    Mr. Baker'
    What is that 400 million dollars attached to?
    The bill just says 400 million more in possible tolling, to pay for?
    .

    The state has a commitment for $2.82B. –
    $1.851B comes from state gas tax –
    $ 209.4M from Federal Earmark Funds –
    $76.4M Federal Bridge Funds –
    Other funds $256.6M —
    which leaves them about $430M short and that is what they are using the tolling for.

    The tolling money is by and large local money, mostly Seattle money, so that's kind of the state taking it from us and giving it back as part of their share.

    The state is contributing $1.9B to the tunnel, $600M to “Moving Forward and Prior Expense”, $290 to the AWB and Promenade and $30 to Construction Transit Service.

    Tolling is a revenue item. It is not on the expenditure side of the ledger. How much we toll has nothing to do with how much the project costs, except it will be the easiest source to pay overruns.

    If we build the tunnel, whoever pays, tolling will be there for quite some time. It will only end when it becomes a bicycle only roadway.

  • NordicGal

    I was a surface supporter for years. But it got old and impossible. The important thing is to remove the blight on the waterfront. That happens with the deep bore.

    Sure, the legislature could always gang up and try to saddle any city with cost over runs on any project. But it never happens. Never has. Plenty of opportunity. But it'll never happen.

    McGinn is using the cost over run issue as a trojan horse to block progress on the deep bore tunnel. The council supports the deep bore tunnel. It is really pretty simple.

    Why would anyone on the Council change their position on the cost over run topic: none of them support saddling anyone in Seattle with cost over runs now.

    Dan's whole post is built on a straw man.

  • morning

    They will, but people aren't as worried about overruns. Now, if they actually put real transit into the mix (like a LR to Ballard and WS) then we would talk about overruns for the surface/transit “plan”.

  • Joe Shmoe

    I am an average “Joe”. I don't work for the city, I'm not an engineer or a lawyer or a professional environmentalist. I am a guy who commutes every day over the viaduct sometimes by bus and sometimes by car. Half of everyone I know is for the tunnel and the other half is for a surface street option. But everyone agrees that a solution should be selected and implemented. Neither will be perfect. This conversation will merely be replaced with the gripes from the side who didn't get their wish. Can the city at least move forward with something? I was for the tunnel, now I am for getting something accomplished before I am to old to drive or the viaduct collapses.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    “and for the most part did not shut the highway completely down” You do realize the massive difference in capacity of I-5 compared to 99, right? Far more trips were re-routed when I-5 was shut down than if 99 were to be shut down.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    Look at the traffic flows. The viaduct serves downtown. We're replacing it with a thoroughfare bypassing downtown.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    We could tear it down right away with the surface option. With the tunnel you'll have to live with it until (at least) 2016.

  • Anc

    Is the Viaduct used mostly as a thoroughfare for people to bypass downtown, or mostly as a means for people to get TO downtown?

  • morning

    You must have a unique group of friends.

    PubliCola: Poll shows few support surface/transit option
    A recent poll paid for by PubliCola shows most voters support replacing the Alaskan Way Viaduct with a deep-bore tunnel or rebuilt viaduct, the blog reports. A surface boulevard option with expanded transit service, which Mayor Mike McGinn favors, finished a distant third with 21 percent.

    It would be interesting to see the actual questions. If it was made clear that the tunnel puts Seattle at risk for overruns and if the viaduct was designed for lower speeds, narrower lanes and smaller shoulders (the way they did it for the cut and cover tunnel) I'd bet the viaduct would have come in over 50%

    Publicola release that poll!

    PubliCola reports the three-way poll of 681 registered voters was conducted last week by EMC Research. Support was split pretty evenly between a deep-bore tunnel replacement and building a new, larger viaduct. While neither reached 50 percent support, the poll showed a strong shift in voters' opinions on a tunnel since a March 2007 advisory vote in which 70 percent of voters opposed a cut-and-cover tunnel beneath Alaskan Way, the blog reports..

  • Gomez

    Most using the viaduct are passing through. Few use it to directly access Downtown as its access points are very limited in their practical application. That we don't see massive backups on the narrow one lane ramps aside from game days shows that most of the traffic is just moving along.

  • Gomez

    “You do realize the massive difference in capacity of I-5 compared to 99, right?”

    Yeah I do, and I recognize the massive difference between the brief I-5 closures and the longer term viaduct closure.

    So why did you reference it as a direct comparison in the first place, when it's clearly not? For reference, here's your quote again:

    “But yeah, I'd love to see them close the Viaduct and do nothing. There would be cries of armageddon, but then it would close and nothing will happen (like during construction on I-5). “

  • geiser

    Nitpick indeed. In a state that had to cut billions from education and health care, with a county that's cutting transit hours in the face of increased ridership demand, and in a city that's supposedly intent on sustainability, we had better be goddamned nitpicky about the huge, long-term costs of one segment of the transportation network.

    21st century cities cannot waste their time and money on transportation solutions from the 1960's. That's what's wrong with all us busybody naysayers.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    Around 60k cars of the 110k that use the Viaduct use the Battery Street tunnel, which will go down to around 36k with tolling for the new tunnel. There's a good discussion of this here.

  • Gomez

    That doesn't disprove the point that most of the viaduct users are passing through instead of using the highway to access Downtown. Whether or not tolls will dissuade SR 99 users is a separate subject.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    That's true. 60k is slightly more than half of 110k. But SF's Embarcadero connected I-80 with the Golden Gate bridge. How many used it as a throughfare? We're talking, at worst, comparing Cameo apples to Fujis.

  • Barleywine

    I'm also a Shmoe (on my Mom's side); and my neighbors, coworkers, family and friends aren't even discussing the viaduct. It's so low on the list behind raising their kids, making dinner, mowing the lawn and doing the laundry that it just doesn't come up.
    I used to take the viaduct on my commute from Greenwood to Burien (and back). Nice drive, and far better than surface would have been.

    If the tunnel would make for a better, quiter, more scenic waterfront I'd be all over it. The views were the best part, but I could live with being underground instead of high over everything, for other on-foot views.
    But I don't think the State should foot the bill unless they think it's in their best interest to do so. They don't.

    If the surface option is really the most environmentally sound thing to do, great. I'm all for it. I don't work in Burien anymore, so I can afford to be green on this one.
    I like some people's idea of getting rid of the viaduct and seeing what happens. If that's the point of stalling, OK. At least the decision then would be based on stark reality, and any improvements will have broad support.

  • Wells

    Dan's “In the case of the tunnel cost overrun issue, the smart path would be for the Council to unite with McGinn and put the pressure back on the State” ain't all that smart.

    This is a game between inside players who can readily observe and admit that the AWV replacement has been a parade of clowns and the DBT (deep-bore tunnel) the worst option, and more pertinently, an embarrassment for its main proponents, WSDOT and SDOT directors, Seattle Chamber of Commerce members, people who never admit mistakes nor being made fools by their incompetent cohorts. The cost overrun issue is their face-saving distraction to keep the truth concealed. However, there's nothing smart about concealing the lie that the DBT is worth further consideration.

    Reconsider Tunnelite and remember that it creates a car-free gardened walkway between the Waterfront and Steinbrueck Park, a spectacular solution. Few will remember that Tunnelite was a compromise between functional idiots.

  • Wells

    Question #1, Why support the tunnel at all?

    The waterfront would be terrific without the AWV. The surface/transit option would overload Alaskan Way with traffic.

    Question #2, Why support it with a condition(s) blatantly not in Seattle’s best interests?

    If the only condition not in Seattle's best interest is cost overrun, Seattlers could do worse.

    If, as I've repeatedly warned, there are a dozen conditions which plainly prove the deep-bore tunnel will increase surface traffic to a point where it becomes a public health hazard along the waterfront, along Mercer through Lower Queen Anne and South Lake Union, and through Lower Belltown, and an imposition upon motorists and commercial traffic, then the answer to question #2, Dan, is you don't want to know, and for some god damn reason, you don't want others to know.

    Just keep the discussion limited to cost overruns and maybe the company you work for will forget about taking “Last Place” in Portland's Memorial Coliseum redevelopment RFP competition.