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O’Brien Grills Staffers About Tunnel Cost Overruns

City Council member Mike O’Brien got all Maria Cantwell on city and state transportation staffers at this afternoon’s discussion of a proposed agreement between the city and the state over the planned Alaskan Way deep-bore tunnel. Like targets of Cantwell’s interrogations, the staffers had a hard time answering his questions. That’s in part because they didn’t have an answer that would satisfy him—O’Brien wants the city off the hook for cost overruns, and the state doesn’t want to make that commitment. Voila: Impasse.

For example, when O’Brien asked directly who would be on the hook in the event of catastrophes like the sinkholes that have plagued the Brightwater tunnel project, viaduct project manager Ron Paananen responded, “It’s a little bit of both.”

When O’Brien asked directly why the city and state aren’t signing off on a bond for the full $800 million it will need to build the tunnel, Paananen responded, “there was a risk that the bonding would result in two or more of the teams [bidding on the tunnel project] dropping out.”

And when O’Brien asked directly whether it didn’t make sense to move more slowly and get the cost estimates before signing off on an agreement with the state, Paananen responded that delay would cost more than signing off on an incomplete agreement.

Things really got interesting, though, when O’Brien started grilling the planners about which party to the agreement—the city or the state—would be on the hook if things did go haywire.

O’Brien:  I appreciate the thoroughness that the state has gone through in analyzing the contract … [but I'm trying to identify] who’s responsible for which portion. … What happens if this project goes over $2.8 billion of state money? Nowhere in here do I believe is that addressed specifically. Who would pay if it goes over $2.8 billion?

Paananen: I’m not the right person to answer that question as directly as you’d like. …  We have what we believe is more than adequate money set aside for risk and contingency. … These agreements will do what they’re intended to do without the provisions you’re looking for.”

O’Brien: Can you walk me through… what would technically happen if, say, a building was sinking and  … you get to $2.8 billion? Does everything stop at that point?

Paananen: No. When we sign a contract with a contractor, it’s between the state and that company. We typically respect the responsibility of an agreement that might say otherwise. … We have a lot of confidence that we can stay within that [$2.8 billion] mark.

O’Brien:  One of the biggest questions for us as elected officials in Seattle is what happens if we get over $2.8 billion. Despite assurances that we think we’re going to be well under that, and it wouldn’t happen, these things tend to get away … and I think the prudent time for us to address that possibility is now… I would much rather be arguing for the city to protect itself when the argument is purely hypothetical instead of sometime down the road.

While O’Brien seems to have studied Cantwell’s performance, his hot-headed mentor Mike McGinn might consider studying O’Brien’s.




  • Chris

    Absolutely! I cannot believe that RIchard Conlin et al are satisfied with a “wait and see” approach to this agreement. What kind of elected official ignores such an obvious fiduciary duty? Our electeds are rolling over for the state when they are supposed to be looking out for us

  • Prefer to be a "guest"

    I can believe it. Richard Conlin (and most of the current Council) are perfectly capable of “looking green” while being in developer crowd's pocket. Just think of Wash DOT as the developer. And the various huge corporate bidders and contraction trade unions certainly are in bed with them. Haven't you “got it” yet; “they” are not looking out for “us.”

  • Stacy

    Right on Mr. O'Brien, nicely done. Not having answers to such basic questions is not an acceptable manner to manage billions of public dollars.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Puffery.

  • gidge

    Who are you accusing of puffery? Because questions can't be puffery.

  • TranspoGuy

    Nice to see that someone on the Council cares about us taxpayers.

  • gidge

    Also, did transportation chair Rasmussen add anything to the discussion. When it comes to this project, I've always felt like he takes way too much on faith.

  • Chris

    From another Chris

    The disturbing part to this afternoon's council meeting were all the union big shots telling us what a great opportunity it is to get their guys to work while no one asked why not just give each union member $2 million and let it go at that. We'd be way ahead.

    And as to tort liability from a project that has no less than 6 deviations from the adopted highway safety standards – a trial lawyers bonanza.

    And remember, the Port of Seattle, kicking in $300 million, or correctly stated as $1.207 billion, now gets every city outsider Seattle on the hook for those new taxes. For your information, the interest on that sum is more than 700 times the current seaport divisions 2010 bond interest.

    How'd you like to be a farmer in Carnation and see your Port taxes go up by a factor of not less then 10?

    How about them apples.

    Chris

  • Stacy

    This is one of the most under-reported major stories of this project. Where exactly is this $300 million going to come from again?

  • clearly not in government

    Hell yes. Thanks Mike. Hope some of the other council members get past their cognitive dissonance about this and manage to remember who they represent. Even if you like the tunnel (I'm pretty ambivalent), the state is blatantly trying to fuck Seattle. Find a reasonable way to fund this, or pull the plug. Don't defend getting bent over just because you're “pro-tunnel.” It's like ordering a delicious steak dinner, having it served to you covered in a fine shit reduction, eating it, and then leaving a nice tip.

  • morning

    Why do keep repeating that stupid $1.2B number?

  • dadvocate

    WSDOT can go back to building a new viaduct. It was Seattle who demanded the tunnel.

  • G&T drinker

    Did or will anything come of this grilling?

  • Wells

    Cost overrun is a diversion. The more important concern is basic engineering, which for the deep-bore is so embarrassingly shitty, no DOT employee, no contractor, construction worker, elected representative or other poor fool cares to admit they've made a horrible mistake to have considered it at all. To submit that cost overrun is the main reason to cancel the deep-bore tunnel is to save face by concealling the more pertinent concerns about engineering and integrity. There should be no question that regarding the deep-bore tunnel fiasco, WSDOT directors and department heads are malevolently corrupt. Most deep-bore tunnel supporters are just fools.

  • Bruce

    That Cantwell exchange hardly amounts to an interrogation. In fact, she let Geithner ignore her and then she backtracked to 'people are curious and don't understand'

    I thought she was supposed to be sharp and an attack dog? That was kid stuff.

  • Doug

    I am a farmer although not in carnation and I like that the Port is helping to solve this because if the viaduct falls down and my produce can't get onto ships and out to markets, my farm stops being able to operate.

  • elaineinballard

    wrong interrogation, the link refers to Cantwell tearing apart the president of BP.

  • Yusuf

    In short, the message should be the cost-overrun, which is for sure, would put many important programs and services received by the public at risk. Therefore, the city council needs to address this concern to the tax payers before the bulldozers arrive at the site.

    We also need to emphasize as tax payers that the city council must get written guarantee from the state, if the cost overrun is resolved, the state will not abandon the project until it is completed. The completion date must also be agreed on before the project starts.

    Half done project or prolonging the completion date will bring a major disruption to down town Seattle. Therefore, an agreement is needed to minimize this uncertainty.

  • elaineinballard

    according to the Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsn…)

    O'Brien is likely alone on the council. Committee Chairman Tom Rasmussen cut him off and said, “We're going to be using this time to ask questions, but if you want to make statements, I guess that would be OK, too. Do you have any other questions?”

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Questions can't be puffery? Ó really?
    Have you seen Fox News?

    Chewing on WSDOT staffers to express displeasure with ambiguity provinded by the legislature served what other function then?
    What the did he expect those people to do, rewrite the legislation in that meeting?

    Puffery.

  • Selma

    Yeah. Getting people who can't make executive decisions to admit they can't make executive decisions is kind of liking shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it?

  • Selma

    That's kind of the end result here, isn't it? Seattle keeps pushing back on the tunnel, and WSDOT ends up building the worst of all worlds because they're legislatively compelled to replace the structure.

    Careful what you wish for.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I guess you have not seen the breakdown of the tunnel estimate.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    McGinn needs to emphasize that so he can obstruct without flip-flopping by being an obstructionist.

    He pulls a different cost overrun number out of the air every time he is asked, and then misrepresents the the cost of the drilling operation of the tunnel and overstates the potential costs.
    He is not particularly honest when making his argument.

    Somebody tell McSandbag that risk mitigation funds are not subject to doubling when calculating a cost overrun.
    It is good to know that Obrien knows the difference, too bad he was a jackass to transportation staffers today.

  • Poindexter

    Could you explain that a little more or provide a cite? I'm against the tunnel because I'm afraid of the cost, but I would appreciate knowing more about the construction problems.

  • gidge

    I think you're looking for another word. Puffery usually refers to exaggerated claims that a reasonable person wouldn't believe. Although you could use the word to describe some of the unreasonable claims that the tunnel will come in on budget, it doesn't make sense in the context that you're using it.

    Puffery is a good word. Please don't bastardize it.

  • Poindexter

    I don't think he was a jackass. I appreciate our politicians demanding accountability from public employees. Go Mike O'Brien!

  • Jason_Mitchell

    What a bunch of spineless grandstanding. If you have a problem with decisions, grill the decision-makers.

  • Brent

    Thank you, Mike O'Brien, for doing your job! We need more politicians like you who look out for us taxpayers.

    I'm a union organizer, and I'm against the tunnel. We need jobs, but we need jobs building *useful* infrastructure, such as light rail from Ballard to West Seattle.

    The only utility of the tunnel is enabling SOV drivers to get between the SODO and north Seattle without using the plentifully available transit options. The people-carrying capacity of the viaduct has long since been replaced by new transit.

    The tunnel is useless for freight, since it doesn't connect between portage areas. If we want to help freight, build a dedicated freight right-of-way, such as a freight-only lane on the waterfront. That would be far cheaper and more effective. We can restore the waterfront streetcar as the primary means of getting people up and down the waterfront distances longer than they care to walk.

  • morning

    I've seen this guy post that $300M from the Port will turn into $1.2B when adding in finance costs, which is bull. If you have a link to a site that indicates otherwise, please provide.

  • NordicGal

    He's obviously just pandering to people who want to block the tunnel. And he looks like a short timer by getting in bed with McGinn on this.

    Obstruction is actually the big driver on costs. The majority of the Council is being responsible on this topic.

    I'd prefer a surface alternative. But that decision has been made. The only responsible course now is to move forward with the tunnel.

  • Stickler

    Here's a question for O'Brien, why in the world are you grilling the transportation planners about an agreement they have nothing to do with? Once you get past the Robert Redford hair and shiny white teeth Mike O'Brien is dumb as a door.

  • onboard

    O' Brien we are coming to notice is very big on drama, and less so on the details.

  • fount

    I'd say in this case it's the staff that aren't big on the details. The whole exchance was basically:

    O'Brien: What is we have overruns?

    Staff: We won't?

    O'Brien: But what if we do?

    Staff: We won't.

    O'Brien is at least being responsible as a public servant. If that's drama, I'd prefer it to the “details” provided by the staff.

  • deep cover

    Paananen works for the state not the city. He shares office space with ParsonsRipUsOff, the engineering firm that underestimated the tunnel for light rail by 300% and were co-managers of the Big Dig in Boston.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I think the claims of cost overruns are exaggerated by Mike and Mike.

    I know the word I have selected, you might not agree with my opinion, but to me it was puffery.
    The claim is implied in his questions, it is, I my opinion, exaggerated. It was not possible for the staffers to rewrite the law. I see no other meaningful function for his bitching.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I'll take back puffery, and use Jason_Mitchell's “spineless grandstanding”.

    There, everybody's happy.

  • M.Ali

    Who will agree on a deal without an agreement?
    Do you think that if you go to a bank and ask loan, the bank will just give you the loan hoping that you are a nice guy and bring the money back on time? No, this what the bank will do.

    1. The bank will verify your income to see if you can pay the money back (in this case, the state is 2.5 billion in the red).

    2. If you pass the income test, then the bank will make you to sign a legal document detailing the terms of the agreement, such as the repayment period, and taking a responsibility for the loan ( in this case, the city council has no agreement with the state about the cost overrun)

    All I can say is that the city council is agreeing on a deal that does not pass the common-sense test.

  • Chris

    Nordic Gal:

    Why do you prefer a “surface alternative”? Do you like congestion? Emissions? Rear end accidents? A route with no view of the bay? I agree that many on the council are rolling over to WSDOT but, recall, they are swallowing the gibberish that now is the time to build when construction costs are low; they forgot that the last recession went on for 13 years plus.

    And then there is the question of the enormous construction costs and who gets stuck with them and the never ending demand for 10 million KW every year, non-stop. Talk about a carbon footprint!

    Alas, no one listens.

    CVB

  • Lee

    I would like to hear an answer about the Cost Overrun from the council. It is not true to say that the cost Overrun will not happen. It will happen, and then who will pay. I don't want to pay the cost overrunn. No No no no….

  • Edog

    Most hearings like this amount to political theatre at best. Save the Drama for your Momma Mike!

  • Comment

    The most amazing sleight of hand here, which no one else seems to have noticed, is how O'Brien seems to have been getting clearance from McGinn to ask those cleverly worded questions on the fly. Maybe they were texting each other? You know, texts from McGinn like, “I hope you know that I'm asking you to ask this because I'm a friend.”

  • West Seattle Waiter

    thats fine O'Brien is McGinn's Mini Me. Maybe they can ride their bikes together to the “Stop the McGinn Recall Rallies of 2011″

    I know his fellow councilors are really getting tired of Mini Me.

  • Roger Mortimer

    What last recession? The last recession was the 2001 decline. Admittedly the City's was longer than the country's, but it was still over by 2004 when the local area had increaseing economic activity. Certainly no recession has lasted 13 years.

  • John

    Doug, except there's almost no freight using the Viaduct to get to the Port. We've seen traffic counts that suggest that, and if you talk to any of the BNSF folks (who handle truck/train transfers, which is how the vast majority of goods get to/from the Port of Seattle) they'll tell you the overwhelming majority of trucks come via 90 or 5.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Absolutely not until Seattle is off the hook on costs.

    Anything less than McGinn directing Holmes to sue the state if they try to go ahead is wrong. Conlin et al are basically turning traitor to Seattle in favor of the State. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    It's not puffery, it's exposure. The more the fact that you and I have to pay if the state screws up–disproportionately to people in OTHER communities–the more that Seattle residents will say hell no.

    O'Brien is doing the right thing here. Every councilmember willing to sign off on this deal needs to be fired. Not the tunnel–the cost overruns being eaten by us.

  • Rational

    The fact is Mike&Mike's street option will be more expensive for Seattleites. It will destroy the waterfront and will dramatically harm our #1 tourist destination, Pike Place Market.

    Any idiot can say what they are against. It takes leadership to say what you are for. Mike&Mike got elected via clever polling and messaging on a wedge issue. If general Seattleites knew what they were for, those recall ballots would be here already.

    You won't be reading what they are for here in Publicola. Erica is too busy looking at O'Brien's ass.

  • Soapboxin'

    Can we take a break from the 'in the developer crowd's pocket' line? Or maybe explain it to those of us for whom it has lost all meaning.
    -
    It has been used so frequently, and for so many purposes, as this throwaway catchall demonization, that it has become the equivalent of a FOX News gambit. A worn out soundbite.
    -
    You have to give me more than that, if you want to make a convincing argument.

  • dadvocate

    Ironically the very reason the state reluctantly agreed to the tunnel was because former Mayor Nickels threatened to make it very difficult for the state to rebuild the Viaduct. Now the new mayor is threatening to do the same thing with the tunnel.

    Hey state, just tear down the Viaduct and let the city figure out how to move the traffic.

  • guest537

    yeah. I couldn't stop looking at his white baggy socks last time I saw him somewhere.

  • jazzerciser

    Hi all, and in response to supposedly Rational:

    I hear this all the time, that obstructionism is intrinsically bad, and it makes sense until you think about it. Even if one disagrees on what precisely is bad, why is stopping a bad thing a lesser accomplishment than creating a good thing? There's plenty of bad things to go around.

    I will be extremely proud if I can help make the world a better place by helping to stop really stupid things like the ethanol mandate, the biomass plants downstate, new water projects, the cost-shifting by the State on the tunnel, the 520 monstrosity, the war on drugs, the adventurous wars abroad, etc.

    Thanks all,

    jazzerciser