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Founded in January 2009, PubliCola is a blog about Seattle written by journalists who are dedicated to non-partisan, original daily reporting that prioritizes a balanced approach to news. Started by longtime local editor and award-winning reporter Josh Feit, PubliCola is the first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol.

PubliCola was off and running. In June 2009, PubliCola hired another award-winning journalist, super-sourced Seattle city hall reporter Erica C. Barnett.

People were afraid that blogging would change journalism. Instead, we believe journalism can change blogging. Twenty-first century journalism may look and feel different, and yes Erica isn't afraid to get cranky, but we're committed to making sure online news still delivers independent, reliable, even-keeled coverage. And most of all, we're committed to making sure the coverage sparks honest civic debate.

Bringing you cola for the people, PubliCola is named after Publius Valerius PubliCola, the alias for the authors of the Federalist Papers—the original bloggers.

The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

More Than The Tailpipe

Earlier this week, I questioned the sanity of pouring money into building roads when demand for oil will soon outstrip supply, not to mention that road transportation is the region’s single largest source of greenhouse gas emissions.

In response to such concerns, some folks contend that electric cars will allow us to continue with car-dependent business as usual, and therefore that road building is just dandy.

The first big hole in that argument is that we’re not going to have gobs of extra electricity lying around to power all those new electric cars.   I did some analysis on that a while back, and estimated that if Seattle’s entire existing fleet was electric, it would add about 14 percent to the city’s total electricity demand.

That doesn’t sound so bad until you consider the fact that reductions in fossil fuel use—due to peak oil, greenhouse gas regulation, or both—are going to increase demand for carbon-free electricity for other things, such as powering buildings that now rely on natural gas or oil. And while it’s true that cars can charge during off-peak periods to take advantage of unused electrical generation capacity, I can imagine a future scenario in which energy is such a precious commodity that we will be storing that excess capacity to supply buidlings and other non-transportation needs during peak demand.

There’s also a second important, but less recognized, flaw in the electric car scenario: It’s not just what comes out of the tailpipe that matters. There are also significant greenhouse gas emissions and energy consumption associated with manufacturing and maintaining cars, as well with building and maintaining roadway infrastructure.

It just so happens that some eggheads at UC Berkeley recently crunched the numbers on that, summed up in the blue pie below:

This pie chart shows the breakdown of greenhouse gas emissions from an average sedan, including the indirect contributions from car manufacture, maintenance, and infrastructure. This complete accounting adds fully one-third to the carbon footprint that would be assumed if only fuel use was counted. Thus, for example, Seattle’s overall greenhouse gas inventory would rise significantly if these additional factors were included.

Improving fuel efficiency reduces the big light blue slice, but has little effect on the other slices. Efficiency and even going electric only get you so far when there’s an extensive, energy-intensive network that’s still required to support a car-centric transportation system. And given that energy prices are only going to keep rising, the cost of maintaining that network will become increasingly onerous.

The upside to all this—yes, there is an upside—is that creating urban environments that are less car-dependent will deliver a host of social and environmental benefits beyond those related to energy and greenhouse gas emissions.  Meanwhile, more and more people are becoming dissatisfied with car-dependent lifestyles, and demand for “walkable urbanism” is growing.

So then, can somebody please remind me why it is we’re still planning to build so many roads?




  • giffy

    Eh, I think a 2/3 reduction is good enough. We don't need to go to zero emissions, just make a sizable reduction.

    Maintaining the road capacity we now have, which yes means the tunnel and 520, coupled with investments in transit and green energy are a sufficient response.

    Build some fancy new nuclear plants and refine plug-in hybrid technology and we can reduce our consumption of oil more the enough to keep supplies sufficient for at least this century. By that time we will most certainly have the means to generate tons of power from things like fusion or unthought of technologies.

    Though really, between biofuels, shale oil, and other untapped reserves we can keep doing what we are doing now, it just won't be all that good for our climate and environment.

  • Timothy

    Beware politicians, yea, even local, Seattle politicians, who claim that they are transit and walkable urbanism supporters, and that they'll get to building those things just as soon as they're done building more roads.

    See how that works? We have a lot of what I like to call “Transit Silver Medalists” in Seattle and State politics. They LOVE transit, just slightly less than they love roads.

  • morning fizzy

    ” I can imagine a future scenario in which energy is such a precious commodity that we will be storing that excess capacity to supply buidlings and other non-transportation needs during peak demand.”

    Electric cars will provide part of this storage. By fully charging during the off-off-peak hours and plugging back during peak hours and selling back power.

    In addition to all the alternative power sources, nuclear power will be added back to the mix. The new plants will be smaller and can be built with greatly reduced waste. If we limit population growth, develop clean sources and use energy more efficiently, we will have plenty of energy.

    “…to continue with car-dependent business …” this is the heart of your issue. It isn't GHG, its that you don't like cars. For most people on the planet cars provide freedom to move, they allow people to expand their reach and provide them with pleasure. Many people that grew up with transit, such as those from NYC, hated the restrictions and fled as soon as they could.

    One glaring missing element from your analysis is what the energy costs for transit will be. The buses that will need to be running 24/7 to replace cars will be moving tons of mass for very few passengers. The construction costs for the systems and their vehicles will consume energy. The rail systems and the bus system will need to be maintained and that will cost energy.

    Buses cause much of the wear on streets and highways and that needs to be factored in.

    I would love to see 520 allowed to sink and use the money to build a rail system around the lake but that will never happen. The idea that people won't want and need personal vehicles is as unlikely.

  • seandr

    Dan, this isn't so much an argument against building roads and cars as it is against manufacturing anything at all, including trains, bicycles, and computers, all of which consume lots of energy.

    The solution, of course, is to make manufacturing less dependent on fossil fuels.

    Also, cars and “walkable urbanism” aren't mutually exclusive. I live in a very walkable neighborhood by choice, and I walk to work every day. I also run errands to home depot or whole foods, drive the kids to school/sports, and have social engagements outside my immediately surroundings. My car is way more time efficient for these things than mass transit will ever be. If I depended on transit for all of these things, I'd lose a month of my life each year in travel time.

  • Grover

    And manufacture, maintenance and infrastructure for rail systems does not use any energy? Only for cars?

    How much energy will be used in digging the light rail tunnel between downtown Seattle and the U.W.? If you want to have even a shred of credibility, you should be able to give us that information. If you don't have that information, then you are just cherry-picking, trying to find bad things to say about cars, but not even looking into the energy consumption of building rail systems.

    The fact is that autos are more energy-efficient than the average light rail system, and that the most-efficient autos available today are more energy-efficient than rail systems. A Prius with one person in it is more energy-efficient than Link light rail. If you put two or more people in a fuel-efficent auto, that is more energy-efficient than a train. Cars are getting more and more energy-efficient.

    http://www.templetons.com/brad/transit-myth.htm…

    The first chart on this webpage shows that the average U.S. car with one person in it is more energy-efficient than the average U.S. light rail system.

    A Honda Insight with one person in it is more energy-efficient than all rail transit in the U.S., even the N.Y. subway system. Just think how energy-efficient a Honda Insight or Tesla (or other electric car) is with two or more people in it!

    But, I don't think you want to consider this data. I think you just hate cars.

    If you are really conscerned about the environment, do the same energy-efficiency analysis for all modes of transport. Otherwise, I suspect you are not concerned about the environment — you are just another car hater.

  • Michael G

    The continental United States, and the Puget Sound region in particular, will be able to keep the lights on for the foreseeable future. Fossil fuel resources are best thought as a pyramid, with best quality sources represented by the small layers at the top and lower quality sources as larger layers at the bottom. A step or two below the conventional natural gas resources in the United States are the unconventional sources: less efficient, more costly, and existent in great quantity. Then there's coal. Realistically speaking, if society is forced to generate electricity from low quality coal sources or to suffer chronic brown-outs, coal will be burnt. And without expensive and still theoretical CO2 sequestration schemes.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    If it were not for the photons spraying on me from the sun right now I would be first in line to drink the Flavor-Aid.

    There are no plans to serve the entire population with a competitive mass transit solution. The level of technological improvement available to the mass transit modes is also possible with other competing modes.

    A focus on why people commute, what prevents people from relocating closer to where career changes to them, and reductions in energy consumption gets to the causes. Debating communting modes addresses the symptom.

    For the Density developers out there, the nails and coffee shop industry has been well served by the mixed use cubes inhabiting utopia. The sad fact is that the type of use that should be mixed in with living space should actually support the lives of those that live there, zero commute.
    The zoning that encourages the first floor of these cubes to be little more than developer window dressing is not always productive space for the community.
    I would like to see a few public/private mixed use partnerships where meeting spaces similar to those that are part of most of our local libraries. The zipcar version of meeting spaces.

  • http://twitter.com/richjensen richjensen

    Atmospheric CO2 is at 391ppm and rising. (http://www.co2now.com) The best science suggests that the planet needs to get back to below 350ppm (the count about 1985) to avoid irretrievable feedback effects. Even if we shut down all CO2 emissions, it will take decades to bring the concentration back down to a healthy level.

    Local independent researchers are plotting a path toward carbon neutrality for the region with a target of twenty years from now. Dan and Publicola have done a great job following this discussion. Technically a carbon neutral region is achieveable, but it requires popular support for commitments to targets that currently outstrip the imagination of most leaders in local government, business and media. There are a number of community education hurdles that need to be overcome. People need to learn about the threat and see how they can participate in building away from it. Leaders need to understand that cutting emissions “a lot” will not solve the problem, they need to set rational, empirical targets that will work as benchmarks in a global framework. Frankly, I don't expect leaders to to take the lead. It's going to be talented, empathetic, well-informed individuals reaching out to friends, neighbors and parts of the city and region they haven't visited before.

    We owe it to today's 5th graders to try to undo the unsustainable practices of the post-war era in time for them to take the reins and help steer society on to a smarter path.

    This isn't an anti-capitalist, or anti-modern, or even anti-growth project. It's just about being smart and energetic, facing reality and taking responsibility for a lot of things that previous generations failed to prepare us for.

    “Just keep going”, isn't an option. Find a ten-year old. Can you look them in the eye and tell them you don't give a shit about what they will have to deal with?

  • seandr

    Interesting analysis, but the numbers in that report are suspicious. Consider the following:

    A Seattle light rail car weighs 105,000 lbs with max capacity of 200 people. A car filled with, say, 75 people (at 150lbs per person) would weigh 116,250 lbs. That's 1550 lbs per person.

    A Prius weighs 2,932 lbs, or 3,082 lbs with a single person 150 lb person in it. That's 3,082 lbs per person.

    The amount of force per person required to maintain a Prius at constant speed is thus 2 times that of the light rail car.

    How, then, does the Prius consume less energy per person than a train? The train would have to quite waste a lot of energy compared to the Prius. However, you'd expect the opposite to be true given that the Prius has to contend with stop lights, gradients, traffic, etc.

  • morning fizzy

    The average number of boarding on LR here is about 32 per car. Each boarder only rides about half the miles so that means the average number on a car at any time is 16. That doesn't reduce the numbers for none service hours.

    Therefore, the pounds move for each rider is more like 6700 pounds.

    The average number of people in a car is around 1.2. That makes the Prius weight per person 2666 pounds.

    In order to increase boarding LR will run more trains and more cars. Even if (when) ridership reached 42,000 and no additional cars or trains were added, the per person pounds would be about the same as the Prius. Of course, many cars and trains are planned to be added to reach the 42K number.

    Fix rail transit, by its nature, adds miles to trips. Cars, by their nature, take you from where to are directly to where you are going, part of their charm.

  • Anc

    Too much emphasis is being placed on C02 and Global Warming IMO.

    The issue is so complex, and so huge, that it either goes over peoples heads (or they just flat out don't believe it) or they don't think one person, or even one city/state/nation can have an effect.

    Instead more emphasis should be put on other negative consequences of an autocentric society. Sprawl, congestion, excess runoff, destruction of social cohesion, waste of resources, etc. Those are problems that directly affect the target audience and can be fixed by them (or their elected leaders).

  • http://www.worldchanging.com/ Alex Steffen

    Good article, Dan.

    Some good points here in the comments as well. A few quick responses.

    Rich: “This isn't an anti-capitalist, or anti-modern, or even anti-growth project. It's just about being smart and energetic, facing reality and taking responsibility for the long term vision previous generations lacked.” Yes.

    Fizzy: “For most people on the planet cars provide freedom to move” Actually, only 1 in 11 people has a car, worldwide, and only about half of them drive as a primary form of transportation.

    Grover– Brad's numbers are seriously out of whack (and I've told him why I think so). Beware of putting too much store in them. Beyond some obvious problems (like cherry-picking low-ridership numbers to compare against cars), he completely ignores the land-use/transportation connection, which credible folks know is key: it's not just how much energy per trip, it's also how many trips are needed.

    In general: The answer to transportation problems is designing cities differently. Once you do that, people have to drive fewer places to get the things they want. This is exhaustively proven: density+walkability up, VMT down. Add in well-designed public transportation, inter-neighborhood bike infrastructure, etc. and the numbers get even better. The idea that smart growth+transit is more energy-wasteful than status quo+ cars is pure propaganda: they don't work the same way.

    Will we have electric cars in the future? Almost certainly. Perhaps many. But can we sustain cheap auto-dependent sprawl over the long run, with almost all adults driving everywhere they go in a landscape that demands that they make multiple trips a day? Not a chance.

    In places that prosper, the car is going to be a minority-share transportation mode within the next few decades; places that can't make that shift are going to take a drubbing economically from the combination of rising energy prices, limited resource availability, social/health costs and environmental true-costing (which will come as a matter of hard geopolitical realities).

    Of course, only radicals think that… like the IEA, World Bank, Brookings, UK govt and U.S. military.

    This region needs to get a grip on it's looming realities. Doubling down on the car is an epic fail strategy. That doesn't mean that everyone from Marysville to Tumwater needs to stop driving, today. It does mean, though, that we need to start massively prioritizing transformative investments today to be ready for the tomorrow we know is coming.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Too much emphasis on how people commute, and not enough on solving why.

  • Random Engineer

    >The amount of force per person required to maintain a Prius
    >at constant speed is thus 2 times that of the light rail car.

    Uh, no. You are confusing drag with mass, and acceleration with momentum. You do need twice as much energy to get twice as much mass moving, but once it is moving, drag is what you're fighting. Drag will be effected by a great many things, including to a lesser extent friction due to mass (the twice times thing), but aerodynamic and rolling resistance forces will be how those show up, not something directly proportionate to mass.

    I don't have a reference, but I can believe that a Prius could move mass four times as efficiently as a far larger train (remember aerodynamics), thus achieve twice the person-mile/energy ratio. This shit ain't simple.

  • Grover

    There are no light rail train systems in the U.S. that average anything close to 75 people per LRT car at all times. Much of the day light rail trains are running around mostly empty. You must count ALL the energy light rail trains during an average day compared to how many peole those trains move during that day.

    When trains are full, they are very energy-efficient, just as a Prius with 5 people in it would be. But, as I write above, trains operate about 20 hours per day, and most of those hours they are nowhere near “full”.

    This is true even during peak hours. Take Central Link for example. A Link light rail car might have 75 passengers on it leaving the downtown tunnel heading south around 5 pm. But, people get off at each station. By the time that same LRT car leaves Rainier Beach station, there are probably only about 30 people on it. And from Rainier Beach to SeaTac is half the length of that route. Then, probably 20 of those people get off at Tukwila, leaving only 10 passengers on that LRT car between Tukwila and SeaTac. So, even though that Link car had 75 people on it leaving the downtown tunnel, it did not average 75 people for the entire trip.

    And during off-peak hours, Link trains never have close to 75 people on them at any point along the line.

    That is how rail lines work. There is a point on the line where trains reach their peak load, but at either end of that point there are fewer and fewer people on the train.

    When you take the average load of light rail cars, they are not particularly energy efficient.

    And the actual capacity of light rail cars during normal commutes is 137 — not 200. They only get close to 200 for special events, such as sports at big stadiums.

    Cars never drive around empty. Cars always have at least one person on them.

    Also, cars can drive on freeways with no stops. Light rail trains typically stop at least every mile for stations. You could drive between Seattle and SeaTac on I-5 with no stops other than a few red lights you might hit in Seattle. There are no stop lights on I-5.

  • Grover

    Utter nonsense. Those areas which waste billions on little trains are going to be left in the dust by other areas which spend that money on much more productive things.

    The train systems that Sound Transit is building are moronically expensive. The amount of money being wasted on Link and Sounder trains is astonishing. Think what that money could accomplish if it were spent on something productive.

  • Grover

    That last paragraph is a particularly good point. Central Link light rail is about 15.4 miles between Westlake and SeaTac. That same trip in a car, using 99, 519 and 518 is something like 14 miles.

    So, not only are high mpg cars more energy-efficient on a passenger/mile basis, they also often allow people to take a shorter route between two points than a rail line takes, meaner fewer vehicle miles traveled.

    I-5 between Tacoma and Seattle is a shorter, more-direct route, than the Sounder rail line takes. The Sounder trains actually head south-east leaving Tacoma to stop at Puyallup before heading north to Seattle. How does that help its energy efficiency?

  • joshuadf

    I agree. We know shockingly little about the overall flow of transportation, other than raw numbers of vehicles using certain entrance ramps or arterial streets.

  • seandr

    “Also, cars can drive on freeways with no stops.”

    The other factor, obviously, is traffic. I suppose there's a critical point at which traffic swings the balance back in favor of rail by reducing the energy efficiency of cars and motivating more people to take rail.

    Anyway, this has been a fascinating episode of myth busters.

  • seandr

    F = MA is the only equation I remember from high school physics. If all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail. :-)

  • joshuadf

    Considering every major city is building rail, does that mean we'll all be left in the dust?

  • joshuadf

    Just curious: since you don't believe light rail is more energy efficient, did you vote for ST anyway due to the highway buses or are you part of the minority that voted against?

  • dadvocate

    At some point people themselves will cause greenhouse gases. People already pollute the water supply with pass through drugs. The gases from cows is already a serious concern.

    The future is bleak for the next generations. Socialism is the only answer to a growing population and limited resources.

  • Barleywine

    There is something beyond the numbers to consider.
    Trains are fun. They're another option. They help Seattle compete for bright minds. They say we can actually do something as a city.

    If people ran the numbers; the effect on their personal finances, on their time, on the planet, when deciding to have kids…they'd never have kids.
    It's a dumbass move, but it sure makes life better.

    And “creating urban environments that are less car-dependent” sounds like the best move of all. I don't understand why people would fight that, but they're out there. Sad folks.

  • morning fizzy

    Whether people actually own a car or not, cars provide them with the freedom to move. That's why people get them as soon as they reach the point of being able to. Look at Kiva.org and see how many of the service jobs are for motorized vehicles.

    “Beyond some obvious problems (like cherry-picking low-ridership numbers to compare against cars)”

    The ST numbers are from one of the most expensive system s in the world and they are the numbers from here, which is after all what we are talking about. ST's own numbers below:

    http://www.soundtransit.org/Documents/pdf/about…

    The issue is zoning and not building regional rail. Look at Sounder for some really bad numbers.

    If we want to reduce GHGs soon, the way to do it is with electric or other very high energy efficiency vehicles. By the time LR reaches Bellevue about half the auto fleet will have turned over. If the efforts of those concerned about GHG and the public subsidies were going toward EVs, we would make a much bigger difference,

  • morning fizzy

    PSRC has some pretty detailed data

  • morning fizzy

    Trains help compete for bright minds. Apparently you came here without there being trains.

    The biggest single cause for most of the problems on earth is population growth. Looking at a couple that is half responsible for 25 houses and 100 people disgusts me.

    The idea that people will continue to pop out babies for fun is hard to understand, but they're out there. Sad folks.

  • joshuadf

    “Two start-ups aim to get car owners to share their vehicles with strangers”
    http://www.economist.com/business-finance/displ…

    This could end up being bigger than zipcar if it provides well-defined legal way to co-own cars with neighbors.

  • PG

    I'm far from being an expert on transportation issues, but I think one simple answer to the question that ends this piece – why are we planning so many roads – can be answered by looking at how we are legally programmed to respond to traffic demand and level of service. The Growth Management Act calls for concurrent improvements in road (and other) infrastructure above a threshold level of service as communities grow and expand. Rather than fight about individual projects, what we should really be focused on is how to grow and plan for growth in a way that doesn't increase (and perhaps reduces) traffic demand for roads. We have a host of resource conservation (like a limited supply of fresh water for consumptive uses) issues to consider as this region continues to grow and I don't believe our current legal framework (GMA) is sufficient.

  • joshuadf

    It's detailed in the sense that it covers the whole region, but it doesn't show why people are choosing certain routes. For example, it's pretty well known that the Mercer entrance to I-5 is congested every evening, but no one knows where the traffic is going and therefore no one can offer alternatives other than generic “form a carpool”. Would
    express buses from Mercer to Shoreline help? Who knows!

    One thing we do know is that Mercer traffic is not coming from the viaduct and it's not freight because of studies done for the SR-99 work.

  • joshuadf

    While it would be great to reduce things like teen pregnancy rates, population growth is not a significant problem in the Northwest:
    http://scorecard.sightline.org/population.html
    There's also good evidence that women's rights (including access to education and jobs) will end population growth in the developing world.

    Perhaps you mean misplaced population, i.e. sprawl due to car-oriented development?

  • debeddy

    I'm no transportation expert, but I have been looking at the connection between land use regulation and transportation for about 15 years now. And yes, we have to understand that these two concepts are inextricably linked. A revamp of the Growth Management Act would help, as would a re-think and re-design of how we apportion transit hours (something I believe that our current County Exec/Deputy Exec are actually working on). It's good that we're talking about these issues … but it's going to take effort on everyone's part – political, social, grass roots and etc. – to make the changes needed. I did appreciate the fact that Dan targeted the Cross-base Highway as an excess, and not rebuilding the SR520 bridge. The CBH does constitute additional capacity, I think … while the SR520 rebuild just adds transit capacity to an existing facility. Big difference.

  • morning fizzy

    Puget Sound's population has increased from 1.5M in 1960 to 4M in 2010. Is that a significant population growth?

    The world's population has tripled in the last 50 years.

    The biggest single reason humans are causing problems is their numbers.

    The forecast is for another million by 2030, Sightline notwithstanding.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Capacity, mode availability, optimum utility, etc, at no point will there be a light rail train running anywhere near I live to take me where I work, here in the sticks of North Seattle.

    It is shockingly stupid to pretend to get more out of a poorly designed set of street paths by sticking rails on them. The few places that could get the most out of peak capacity of LR already have it, or will have it very soon. Once you put rails down you are trapped.
    I think we get far more people out of their cars and serve them better with RapidRide bus service.
    Coordinating all of the bus services that cross county lines will cut down on the transfer wait times.

    I just don't see that mode as solving much more than it is right now.

    The people that live around me either have no cars because they happen to go where the bus takes them right now (lifelong jobs are rare), or they have TWO vehicles.
    Bitching about rail on 520 will do nothing to get those two cars to go away. Supplanting bus routes with trains will never solve this.

    Single urban folks are getting pretty busses they call trains, and that's about it.

    For the cost that rail more bus service in more places will help get those people out of having to have two cars.
    The cars that are there should have no trail pipe, where possible.
    Home energy generation for those fewer personal vehicles needs to get much, much cheaper.

  • Grover

    I suspect that is not true. However I don't have information for every major city in the U.S.

    What is true is that Seattle is wasting more money per mile of light rail than any other city in the U.S. Is there any other U.S. city which is spending $600 million per mile for any light rail segment, like we are wasting on the section betweem downtown and U.W.? When Central Link was built at about $160 million per mile, it was easily the most expensive light rail line in the U.S.

    I do know that Las Vegas decided not to build light rail, and is building bus rapid transit, instead. Their Gold Line BRT just opened, and is already averaging 20,000 boardings per weekday, compared to 18,000 on Central Link, and the L.V. Gold Line bus route cost about $5 million per mile, compared to about $160 million per mile for Central Link.

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr/08/ace…

  • Grover

    That link to the ST document does not seem to work. Can you find an updated link? I would like to see that document.

  • Grover

    I should also have added another obvious reason why light rail is not very energy-efficient, and that is that light rail must have as many trains in the reverse-commute direction as in the commute direction. And the reverse-commute trains are usually fairly empty along the entire route.

    So, in the afternoon there may be 75 people at peak load in a Link car leaving Seattle at 5 pm, but in the Link car leaving SeaTac at 5 pm heading into Seattle, the peak load may not be more than 30.

    You have to count the energy used by the mostly-empty reverse-commute trains as well as that used by the trains going in the commute direction.

  • buh-bye

    When you move to Vegas you won't be expecting us to visit you, will you?

  • Harley Earl

    People view their cars as status symbols and extensions of themselves. They use them to compensate for their shortcomings in other areas – hence the large number of SUV's you see driven by mousy types, and software geeks on Harleys.

    Until they change that – and that will be a big change – we're stuck with them. No one ever went broke playing on anyone's insecurities.

  • Barleywine

    “at no point will there be a light rail train running anywhere near I live to take me where I work”

    There are an amazing number of people where I live that thought somehow the train was for them, and don't see it as useful to them.

    But the idea is to build the train, then build heavily and thoughtfully around the stations, then watch as the NEW people can walk or bike to everything they need.
    The trains aren't packed right now because we're still in the early stages. The density around the stations isn't there yet, but it'll come.

  • morning fizzy

    http://www.soundtransit.org/Documents/pdf/about…

    You're right the link in the earlier post didn't work.

    I used the address again and it worked. I copied it again and pasted above- below is the address without the http and www; the title of the report is listed further below.

    soundtransit.org/Documents/pdf/about/board/Discussion%20Items/2010/Monthly%20System%20Performance%20February%202010.pdf

    Sound Transit Operations
    System Performance
    February 2010

  • morning fizzy

    Put “Sound Transit Operations System Performance” in Google and it should be your top hit.

    For whatever reason copying the URL into a comment doesn't work.

  • morning fizzy

    Barley – ST chose the most expensive route in the history of light because it would serve the densest areas. Cap Hill and the UDist are the densest of those if you ignore DT.

    Of course, if we zone up around stations, make it harder and harder to get around by bus or car, and in general force people onto the trains, ridership will increase. But at what cost in money and wellbeing?

    You really think people will find everything the need within a short distance of every light rail station? Of course it depends on how you define what everyone needs.

  • Barleywine

    Fizzy, rail should be built where the most people live. That makes it more useful more quickly. Those are also destinations.

    But so much of the more bus / less train group is thinking about where they live now and how they can't get there from here. The rail is too far for them to walk.
    Cars are wonderful. I have one, and use it. Those people likely have cars and will continue to use them.

    But some people also opposed the sports stadium because they don't go to them. I don't go to them, but I see how they're good for the city and region. I don't mind paying for them for that reason.

    “You really think people will find everything the need within a short distance of every light rail station?”

    Not soon, but as things develope it will get easier and easier not to need a car.

  • commenter

    trains are our way of not confronting the real issue, which is density.

    75% single family homes means we are never, ever going to be like amsterhagen.

  • morning fizzy

    Another thing is the trains we are building encourage sprawl. The line from Tacoma to Everett is about the distance from lower NYC to Waterbury,CT.

    Hard to imagine that the first line one would build in NYC would be the tip of Manhattan to CT.

    We aren't doing any transit to get people around the city with any speed. People will tire of the streetcars moving 10 MPH.

  • commenter

    funnything….adding a few rail lines costs losts of money.

    upzoning is basically free.

    i have a friend who works for a city councile member.

    he said the counsil that raises zoning limits is the council that doesn't get reelected……so basically we have a dichotomoy between aspirations to be green and zero out our emissions, and the reality, which is the vast majority of seattle residents would rebel at making our density match that of amsterdam or copenhagen or the vast arrondisements of paris as shown in movies like ratatoullie….vast stretches of six story walk ups….garrets without a full kitchen, oh my god….not even any parking spaces dedicated to the units, oh.my.god…..

    our little laurelhurst community council type groups can't even tolerate a hosopital expansion they would be horrified at any proposal to have real change in our zoning.

    that's the barrier we face.

  • WJP

    People who focus on vehicle efficiency first, as evinced here, do have a point when it comes to the peak oil perspective. The few analyses we have on that subject show that the earlier you start adapting before the peak, the less it will cost and the less radical those measures will have to be. For example see this presentation (PDF, 10MB, page 47ff.):

    http://aspo-usa.com/2009presentations/Simon_Rat…

    If the move to efficient vehicles and other road measures is rapid, and we have a late peak and slow decline, then road measures will mostly do the job (page 49). Notice that on page 37 of the presentation transportation demand management, i.e. all the stuff Dan keeps talking about, is seen as the most effective measure for reducing oil use (~25%). Hybrid-electric/electric vehicles have a slightly lower but respectable predicted impact (15~17% each).

    But we don't have control over when and how the peak will happen. So if the peak happens fast (and steep) then we will have to pull all the stops and do significant work in vehicle efficiency/road measures, mode efficiency, mode shift, and new technologies (mostly yet to be invented AND mass-produced).

    Now it looks very much like the peak will happen within the next 10 years, and decline will start within 15 years at the latest. Which means we don't have the time to have vehicle efficiency alone propel us to a desireable outcome. That leaves me with the conclusion we have to do all those things as far as that is possible. The example of light rail shows that it takes a long time for it to be built out and have a mitigating effect. The pay off will happen when the network has enough reach.

    So I'd say: agressive pursuit of efficiency for [conventional] vehicles via something like this

    http://scarcewhales.blogspot.com/2009/03/vehicl…

    and steady work to do the modal shift. I wouldn't bet my life on commercially unproven electric cars. It will take a long time to get them to affordable mass production (2020+) and even longer for them to take a significant share of the fleet. Obviously, their development has to be agressively pursued as well and it would be great if I'm proved wrong. But if I'm right, scooters will be a better option, at least in the meantime.

  • morning fizzy

    The average US car sells for about $28,000 – electric are here now and will only get better – LR being built now won't energy neutral for years and years after opening.

    “About 1,200 of the U.S.-made Teslas have been sold worldwide, including 50 in the Northwest, salespeople said. In a couple years, a $50,000 sedan will hit the market, followed by a $30,000 subcompact.

    The elite roadster clearly has limited appeal, but sales adviser Lance Merkin says it plays a role in promoting affordable electric cars for the masses by dispelling the myth that electric cars are like glorified golf carts. “If that's the case, the solution is a car that will draw attention,” he said.

    Meanwhile, the all-electric Nissan Leaf is scheduled to reach Seattle as a test market next year, costing as little as $25,000 after tax credits. Chevy's mostly electric Volt, with a gasoline-backup engine for when power runs low, is also expected to be available by then.”

  • Barleywine

    Fizzy, this is a good step toward solving the tailpipe problem. But I'd like to hear your take on solving the gridlock problem, too.

    What sounds workable to you?

  • WJP

    Yes, that's all very nice and doesn't contradict what I wrote. Again the issue is scale. Showcar Tesla aside, the Leaf seems to have more promise. Sales are expected to start at what, 30,000 (even less for the Volt)? Full rollout in 2012 at the earliest brings us to max. 150,000 vehicles/year in the US; total car sales are at least 12,000,000/year. –> ~1.5% market share, ~0.5% fleet share in ten years. By the way, the tax credit starts running out when 200,000 vehicles have been sold. And it's clear that for about ten years Nissan won't be making any money with the Leaf (the same for GM and Volt). Nobody knows whether the batteries will hold up for eight years. Where is the charging infrastructure? Does this really solve traffic problems?… Questions, questions…

    A concurrent example is Toyota and its hybrids. Toyota has produced over 2 million of those in 12 years. A considerable achievement, but how many conventional cars have they produced in that time? 50 million or more? The big efficiency gains in the Toyota fleet have come from making conventional trucks and cars more efficient.

    So yes, plug-ins and full-electrics are coming but their impact will be delayed at least till 2025. Meanwhile the conventional fleet is expected to march towards a billion (although that march could be choked off because of a crisis). They won't save us.

  • morning fizzy

    In the short term there is no solution. We can nibble at edges, but even ST's forecasts doesn't have there efforts making congestion improve. Fixing some of the choke points could make some marginal improvements.

    I believe that the street changes being made are making things worse. The Tom-Tom study has Seattle with the worst congestion in the country. The Texas Transportation Institute focuses on highways and has our area doing better than the T-T study. Many feel that the changes are for the good and they may be, but they are adding to congestion.

    If the number one priority is to reduce GHGs, then doing what we can to encourage people to shift to low emission cars is the fastest way to get there.

    If we wish to change the way people live and density is key to that, then we need to make drastic zoning changes. We need to stop building outside of the real urban cores.

    As far as transit options, van pools using high efficiency vehicles would seem to be the best short term way to provide transit to the most people. If congestion is the biggest target, tolling the roads is the only realistic solution.

    Or we could go with Steve Martin's solution: Death penalty for parking violations.

  • morning fizzy

    their efforts

  • Grover

    “Trains are fun. They're another option.”

    $160 million per mile for a toy for yuppies: Central Link Light Rail.

  • Barleywine

    Golly, G.H. Life can't all be captured in a spreadsheet!

    It's supposed to be nice tomorrow.
    Have some fun!

  • morning fizzy

    If we make it a national goal to move to electric and super high efficiency vehicles, we could be producing millions of them in just a few years.

    The LR systems will not solve traffic problems. LR will not have any measurable impact on emissions in the next twenty years even with the billions being committed.

    People could easily be moved to electrics, hybrids, and very high MPG cars, but I doubt they will be moved to LR, walking and biking. The new cars are the only thing that can realistically save us.

  • doomed

    We lack that kind of initiative in this country anymore: Half of us are too fat and stupid, and the other half think they're smarter than anyone else, so they would kill it with second guessing, keyboard quarterbacking, and blowharding.

    I think that many of the comments in this thread prove my last point.

  • Another slice of the answer

    I would like an electric scooter.

  • Another slice of the answer

    Seriously, embracing electric cars obviously is a big part of the answer. Instead of having the anti car ranting. Also part of the answer is zoning changes, but seriously, if we compare ansterhagen and seattle I think we'd find one is 75% single family the other mainly multifamily….all the efforts to add rail or brt or all kinds of transit sort of don't work so well if we don't have the zoning changes. especially building rail out to fife and redmond, this just let's people buy homes 20 miles from redmond drive 20 miles to redmond then take light rail to bellevue to work….we should be adding folks inside the city not expanding the sprawl basin. kinda hard to do that if we keep seattle at 75% single family.

  • joshuadf

    There is a pretty significant difference between “people will continue to pop out babies” in the 1960s and today. Many developed countries had baby booms 50 years ago, but today birth rates are low–slightly below replacement rate in the Northwest, and much lower in some countries such as Japan. The source of predicted future growth in our regional population is relocation.

    I would love to see success for one of the many attempts to make small US towns work in the modern economy, but none have panned out so far. I personally relocated to Seattle from a city of 10,000, largely because most jobs there paid under $20k per year, even ones that required a college degree.

  • joshuadf

    Hey, I think rail was the right choice as a long-term term investment but I'd be happy with the traffic lanes that Las Vegas dedicated to transit for the BRT project. Let me know when you start collecting signatures for an initiative to take traffic lanes away from single-occupant vehicles. Heck, I'd sign even if you have an exception allowing electric vanpools to use the transit lanes.

  • WJP

    Which half of us do you count yourself in? Sorry, I had to ask.

    I am also sorry if my skepticism hurts your desire for massive and rapid change. I'm just pointing out some numbers which show that things take time even if we throw massive resources behind such efforts. I'm not trying to be cynical. The vehicle efficiency market idea I linked to would be the fastest way to tilt the market towards efficiency, to create supply AND demand for efficient vehicles. It would be self-regulating, technology-neutral and cost-neutral.
    But all those other things that reduce the need for driving shouldn't be excluded. We should not make a bet on one thing to make all the difference. I guess that goes for rail, too. (BTW how is that upzone going to work without high-capacity transit?) In the end, even all those measures taken together might not work. That's a possibility that nobody wants to entertain. But if we make arguments on the basis of “It can't be because it must not be!” then we are headed for some rude awakenings.

  • doomed

    WJP, since you asked, I am firmly in the fat and stupid camp. :-)

    And I hate to be snarky, but we can sit and talk and bitch and talk, but that gets nothing done. We all of us – me included – love to complain about the “Seattle process” but we're all part of it. There's the apathetics (who will go along with anything as long as it's not too inconvenient) anti-everythings (garden variety cranks) and then there's the big thinkers, who spend all their time telling you how they would do things better and name dropping about the places they've been to.

    That exists everywhere of course, but we seem particularly cursed by it here.

  • Barleywine

    I got out of my house, into my car, and into the mountains today.
    And this thread was still in my head, dammit.

    Got me thinking about the freedom cars provide, and how getting someplace beautiful/different recharges the batteries no matter how you got there; electric, internal combustion or hybrid.
    That's not something I want give up, ever. But the daily slog to and from work (mine is fairly short, thankfully) is something that could use some fixing. Those kinds of things; getting to and from work, getting food and other essentials, child care, beer. If those things were easier, closer, cheaper, less polluting or more fun, more people would sign up.

    That's what TOD is for.

  • Chris Stefan

    You're forgetting that rolling resistance is a significant contributor to drag, steel wheels on steel rails have a far lower rolling resistance than rubber on concrete or asphalt. Furthermore the wheels and rails need to be replaced far less often than car tires or road pavement.

  • Chris Stefan

    Part of how the CO2 issue can be solved is by sending strong price signals with a carbon tax. This puts all energy sources on an equal footing in terms of CO2 output and means that things like the GHG content of concrete will be captured in the price.

  • Chris Stefan

    So where do you propose to get exclusive ROW for your magic BRT line between the U District and downtown? Furthermore where is the budget to double or triple the number of buses on this route? The buses are at crush loads for much of the day in both directions, even with 5 and 10 minute headways.

    Sure the light rail line between downtown, Capitol Hill, UW, University District, Roosevelt, and Northgate will be expensive. however it will be one of the highest ridership light rail lines in the country on opening day.

    Sure it is expensive, but compare it to the alternatives. How much do you think it would cost to widen I-5 between downtown and Northgate? How much would it cost to widen surface arterials in the same corridor.

  • Anc

    Very true. A flat carbon tax would be much simpler (thus more effective) than a convoluted cap and trade system.

  • leisure traveler

    I'm not anti-car at all. But I drive for work all week, and the last thing I want to do on my off-time is get in some stupid car.

    With that said, I agree with 100% of what you are saying. I just wish there were transit alternatives – preferably non bus – to get up in the mountains or out to the shore. Amtrak does a good job of getting people along the corridor, but I wish there was still a train up to Alpental, or out to the ocean.

  • joshuadf

    Zipcar works great for this. Also, these ski shuttles are sort of buses but they're the little ones:
    http://www.greasebus.com/seattle/

    http://www.graylineseattle.com/sightseeingtours…

  • Keep it simple

    Message received. Stay out of Seattle. When my wife asks if I want to go downtown to ______ (fill in the blank), my typical response is, “no, let's find something local”. It would be one thing if she didn't agree the drive is too miserable. You can't come into town on weekends or evenings. It's easier to find businesses to visit that aren't down town.

    So go ahead and continue keeping me from coming in and spending my money. It IS green to keep me out. You can serve the people who live here.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    //By fully charging during the off-off-peak hours and plugging back during peak hours and selling back power.// This is an often cited but flawed solution. Think out the details and you realize that the real cost of an electric car is the batteries, and these batteries only have a certain number of cycles until they're landfill (max of around 100k miles in the Tesla). Charging and discharging your batteries daily for driving will already only give you, say, 10 years of useful life before you need to replace your batteries (again, the most expensive part of the car). Cycling them a few more times a day for peak shaving will cut this to around 3 years. Cutting the value of your car in half every 3 years is a terrible way of saving on electric bills.

  • Matt_the_Engineer

    (note: probably the first time I've marked a [fizzy] comment with a “like”)

    I support regional rail because it's an alternative to cars and has a chance at creating dense pockets along the rail line, and our region loves cars so much that if we don't increase corridor capacity with rail we'll do it with roads.

    But what we really need is good urban transit. If we could get between the neighborhoods and downtown quickly and easily without cars, and we loosened zoning restrictions near this transit, we'd quickly see a massive reduction of car use in the city and a large migration of people into the city. People don't really want to spend their lives driving around in cars – they just don't see good alternatives.

  • former downtowner

    Not to mention there's no reason to go downtown anymore. All the stores – including Nordstrom, our nominally “local” store – are the same chain stores you can go to at all of the local malls.

    This has been true since the 50's, of course, but the downtown shopping district used to have a lot more character. Even the chains (Bon Marche, I. Magnin, F&N) were a lot more regional in nature, and carried a much wider variety of merchandise than what we see now.