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Lies that Punish the Poor

If you’re going to lie, lie big and lie often.  Memorize the lies of power, and align your lies with theirs.  Lie firmly and confidently.  Lie with data, and build fresh lies over the old.  Lie cordially.  Lie serenely.  And most importantly, never stop lying.

These are the rules I’ve observed over my recent stint as Seattle Council Member Tim Burgess’ anointed nemesis.  Most people think of Burgess in terms of his preferred narrative: a former beat cop who quickly rose to detective, and has now turned to a career in public service. A compassionate conservative. A Christian.

Burgess’ twenty-two years as an adman—a liar for hire—are far more relevant, and his campaign for the new panhandling law offers a veritable catalogue of the form.

Contextual Lie

This lie states part of the truth, while intentionally withholding information. The Seattle Human Rights Commission, in their 9-0 rejection of the Burgess ordinance, rigorously analyzed the data presented to support the need for this new law. The claim that vital tourism and trade dollars are at risk, they said, has no basis.  Public concern for this issue, since 2007, has declined.  Three quarters of those surveyed felt safe downtown. Taken in context, the SHRC found the data “insufficient to support the substance of the proposed ordinance.”

Bald-Faced Lies

This would be the statement, made at the Human Rights Commission forum last month, that Mayor McGinn supports this legislation and City Attorney Peter Holmes “wrote” the law. McGinn, who until recently has made no statements for or against, is now poised to veto.  Holmes, who has been similarly silent, has merely stated that the law, written by City Council central staff, would likely pass prima facie constitutional review.

Lies of Omission

Tim Burgess claims that his law has the support of human services advocates, and trots out a handful of providers with unusually close relationships to major downtown business interests as evidence. The human services community is broadly appalled by this ordinance and has repeatedly lined up to say so. Burgess says his ordinance has popular support, and yet his own 36th District Democrats, along with the 34th, 37th, and 46th Districts, have passed resolutions to oppose. The Seattle Community Council Federation, representing 18 community councils, unanimously voted to oppose as well.

Lies of Exaggeration

Burgess routinely compares his law to Tacoma’s, and says they have virtually eliminated panhandling without ever writing a single ticket. This is offered as evidence that the desperately poor won’t really be issued the $50 citations that the law creates, or be jailed when those tickets are ignored. As it turns out, cops in Tacoma do write tickets, and while less visible in commercial areas, poor people still panhandle. San Francisco, after 15 years of a similar law, issues an average of 12,000 citations annually.

Lies of Fabrication

This variety of lie sounds plausible, but is not based in fact. Tim Burgess routinely states that his ordinance is “carefully and narrowly crafted,” and will only impact the bad actors on the street that no one wants. Legal advocates see the ordinance as exceedingly broad, poorly written, and extremely vulnerable to constitutional challenge.

The Big Lie

What’s good for business is good for Seattle, and if the Mariners, Starbucks, Samis, Clise, and the Downtown Seattle Association all say jump, the only question our City Council should ask is “how far?”

This law transparently panders to the business interests, punishes the poor for merely making us uncomfortable, and places the burden of the recession on those who have nothing. The Seattle City Council should find their integrity and vote to reject.

Tim Harris is the Executive Director of Real Change, an advocacy group for low-income and homeless people.





  • Ross Kane

    Mr. Harris is, always, entitled to voice his OPINIONS, but that does not
    franchise him to call the stated opinions of others “lies”.

    There is no doubt he feels strongly on this issue, but those feelings
    DO NOT ENTITLE him to slander the motives or intentions of every one else.

    I think this is an inappropriate post. It should be taken down.

    Ross Kane

  • Ross Kane

    Mr. Harris is, always, entitled to voice his OPINIONS, but that does not
    franchise him to call the stated opinions of others “lies”.

    There is no doubt he feels strongly on this issue, but those feelings
    DO NOT ENTITLE him to slander the motives or intentions of every one else.

    I think this is an inappropriate post. It should be taken down.

    Ross Kane

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    The truth is an absolute defense against defamation and libel. What specific statements that Harris made are untrue?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    The truth is an absolute defense against defamation and libel. What specific statements that Harris made are untrue?

  • bgtothen

    Tim's piece says “lie” something like 20 times. Whether or not that is the case using this accusatory and over the top tone only discredits Tim's argument to any casual observer. I honest would expect a more substantive response from the executive director of Real Change.

  • Adam Bejan Parast

    Tim's piece says “lie” something like 20 times. Whether or not that is the case using this accusatory and over the top tone only discredits Tim's argument to any casual observer. I honest would expect a more substantive response from the executive director of Real Change.

  • Selma

    I read the first paragraph, and nothing more.

    I'm also less likely to want to buy Real Change. Nice work here.

  • Selma

    I read the first paragraph, and nothing more.

    I'm also less likely to want to buy Real Change. Nice work here.

  • Bill_in_Central_District

    you're right, politicians don't lie.

    they misrepresent the facts, they tell only a partial story, they fabricate their own reality.

    my three year old does the same thing, and I forgive her because at that age, they don't know better.

    Mr Burgess should.

    And Mr Harris is loudly, and rightly, calling him out.

  • Bill_in_Central_District

    you're right, politicians don't lie.

    they misrepresent the facts, they tell only a partial story, they fabricate their own reality.

    my three year old does the same thing, and I forgive her because at that age, they don't know better.

    Mr Burgess should.

    And Mr Harris is loudly, and rightly, calling him out.

  • bgtothen

    Bill I never said that. I simply said that the tone Tim wrote his piece in makes him come off as out of touch and less than reliable.

  • Adam Bejan Parast

    Bill I never said that. I simply said that the tone Tim wrote his piece in makes him come off as out of touch and less than reliable.

  • sarah68

    Reading only one paragraph is not a great way to find out what someone has to say. It does help you confirm your stereotypes, however.

  • sarah68

    Reading only one paragraph is not a great way to find out what someone has to say. It does help you confirm your stereotypes, however.

  • Selma

    I'd love to hear what my stereotypes are. Please do tell me.

    I'm simply pointing out that in a point/counterpoint piece, “the other guy is a lying liar who lies” isn't the best rhetorical device. I've gone back and since reread his piece, and he raises good points. A bulletted list may have been a better option than the inflammatory style he chose.

  • Selma

    I'd love to hear what my stereotypes are. Please do tell me.

    I'm simply pointing out that in a point/counterpoint piece, “the other guy is a lying liar who lies” isn't the best rhetorical device. I've gone back and since reread his piece, and he raises good points. A bulletted list may have been a better option than the inflammatory style he chose.

  • dadvocate

    I am not a fan of panhandling laws, but all I gleaned from Tim Harris's post is that he hates Tim Burgess. There is no discussion of the substance of the law, but only an attack of Tim Burgess's character.

    The sad part is that Tim Burgess will come out smelling like a rose on this issue. I'm sure the public is broadly in favor of preventing aggressive panhandling. Mayor McGinn will veto this law and be further minimialized as the council rejects his veto 9-0.

    The best thing Mr. Harris can do is attack the law and humanize the homeless. Otherwise he will be easily outmaneuvered by Tim Burgess who is already setting his sights on the Mayor's seat.

  • dadvocate

    I am not a fan of panhandling laws, but all I gleaned from Tim Harris's post is that he hates Tim Burgess. There is no discussion of the substance of the law, but only an attack of Tim Burgess's character.

    The sad part is that Tim Burgess will come out smelling like a rose on this issue. I'm sure the public is broadly in favor of preventing aggressive panhandling. Mayor McGinn will veto this law and be further minimialized as the council rejects his veto 9-0.

    The best thing Mr. Harris can do is attack the law and humanize the homeless. Otherwise he will be easily outmaneuvered by Tim Burgess who is already setting his sights on the Mayor's seat.

  • sarah68

    Good. You read the whole piece this time and can see he raised some good points. I don't know what your stereotypes would be because I meant “your” in the aggregate, not personal, sense. Tim's first paragraph talks about liars in the aggregate sense also but doesn't specifically call Burgess a liar, either (although he later does, and rightly so I think). First paragraphs are just first paragraphs.

  • sarah68

    Good. You read the whole piece this time and can see he raised some good points. I don't know what your stereotypes would be because I meant “your” in the aggregate, not personal, sense. Tim's first paragraph talks about liars in the aggregate sense also but doesn't specifically call Burgess a liar, either (although he later does, and rightly so I think). First paragraphs are just first paragraphs.

  • Tim Harris

    Having lived this issue for a number of months, I believe that lies and lying, the smooth rationalizations of politics, and the free ride that polite people give to power, is precisely the issue. All of the arguments for and against have already been made in five part harmony, the votes in City Council are largely locked in (although one vote is still crucial), and minds have been made up. What's left to say? This. This ordinance and the logic of the marketplace that stands behind it, that profits are everything and that the disposable wreckage of of a broken system is fit only to be swept into jail, rests upon a foundation of lies. Lies. Lies. Lies. It needs to be said, and I'm saying it. No apologies.

  • Tim Harris

    Having lived this issue for a number of months, I believe that lies and lying, the smooth rationalizations of politics, and the free ride that polite people give to power, is precisely the issue. All of the arguments for and against have already been made in five part harmony, the votes in City Council are largely locked in (although one vote is still crucial), and minds have been made up. What's left to say? This. This ordinance and the logic of the marketplace that stands behind it, that profits are everything and that the disposable wreckage of of a broken system is fit only to be swept into jail, rests upon a foundation of lies. Lies. Lies. Lies. It needs to be said, and I'm saying it. No apologies.

  • Guest

    If the only arguments that can be made opposing Burgess's proposals are loaded with broad and lazy ad hominem attacks and at the same time short on substance, then the proposals must not be that bad…

    When the only opposition is voiced by someone that is 'supposed' to oppose a measure, it can't have much merit.

  • Guest

    If the only arguments that can be made opposing Burgess's proposals are loaded with broad and lazy ad hominem attacks and at the same time short on substance, then the proposals must not be that bad…

    When the only opposition is voiced by someone that is 'supposed' to oppose a measure, it can't have much merit.

  • Jimmy103

    Tim Harris is not an effective advocate for his causes. His writing style damages his credibility.

  • Jimmy103

    Tim Harris is not an effective advocate for his causes. His writing style damages his credibility.

  • sarah68

    Two epic logic fails there. The opposition to something doesn't define the merit of that something, either one way or another. Harris and many others have commented often about the dangers of this ordinance, and nobody's “supposed” to either oppose or approve any measure. If Burgess would instead of pushed for more funding for services without a punitive and duplicative ordinance, he would have been met with applause from those who oppose this measure. We make up our minds according to what we think and believe, as no doubt do you, Guest.

  • sarah68

    Two epic logic fails there. The opposition to something doesn't define the merit of that something, either one way or another. Harris and many others have commented often about the dangers of this ordinance, and nobody's “supposed” to either oppose or approve any measure. If Burgess would instead of pushed for more funding for services without a punitive and duplicative ordinance, he would have been met with applause from those who oppose this measure. We make up our minds according to what we think and believe, as no doubt do you, Guest.

  • Selma

    What do you say to the people that have “lived this issue” for several years, and would like to see a different downtown?

    No one's recommending gassing the poor (your “Big Lie” hysteria notwithstanding). People are simply saying that what we currently do isn't working. So then, how can you be constructive? If its passage is inevitable, how can you help shape this bill to be more sympathetic to your constituency?

  • Selma

    What do you say to the people that have “lived this issue” for several years, and would like to see a different downtown?

    No one's recommending gassing the poor (your “Big Lie” hysteria notwithstanding). People are simply saying that what we currently do isn't working. So then, how can you be constructive? If its passage is inevitable, how can you help shape this bill to be more sympathetic to your constituency?

  • Miss Ruby

    I, too, was taken aback by Tim's post. So distracted by the name calling I didn't ready it.

  • Miss Ruby

    I, too, was taken aback by Tim's post. So distracted by the name calling I didn't ready it.

  • kirhac

    what a laugh (I wish) it is to read so many of these tender souls outraged by words,…nary any outrage about 20,000 school kids homeless in WA state, 3,000 unsheltered homeless in King County, and more. This liberal patina from offended readers is a lie; what it really amounts to is “I don't give a damn,” so those of you offended by words, use a few like that to tell us that you simply don't care

  • kirhac

    what a laugh (I wish) it is to read so many of these tender souls outraged by words,…nary any outrage about 20,000 school kids homeless in WA state, 3,000 unsheltered homeless in King County, and more. This liberal patina from offended readers is a lie; what it really amounts to is “I don't give a damn,” so those of you offended by words, use a few like that to tell us that you simply don't care

  • sarah68

    Tim Harris is an independent opinion writer and has been for many years. We have too few of them. You may not agree with all of his opinions, all the time; who does? Local journalism is degenerating into “reporting” on the latest restaurant and Capitol Hill band openings, with some forays into bike-oriented environmentalism. That makes Harris and Holden and Barnett and a few others seem a little shocking because they say what they think (Tim more colorfully than most). As in THINK, not just believe because it's comforting.

  • sarah68

    Tim Harris is an independent opinion writer and has been for many years. We have too few of them. You may not agree with all of his opinions, all the time; who does? Local journalism is degenerating into “reporting” on the latest restaurant and Capitol Hill band openings, with some forays into bike-oriented environmentalism. That makes Harris and Holden and Barnett and a few others seem a little shocking because they say what they think (Tim more colorfully than most). As in THINK, not just believe because it's comforting.

  • Kathryn

    The consequences of this law will mean:
    - more people in jail if enforced and warrants issued for non payment
    - less safety on the streets because cops will be occupied with writing tickets and not dealing with the real problems
    - a waste of city money once people sue because this law ignores due process

    I will happily say I told you so when the above comes to be.

    People do you wanna 'feel' safer or BE safer?

  • Kathryn

    The consequences of this law will mean:
    - more people in jail if enforced and warrants issued for non payment
    - less safety on the streets because cops will be occupied with writing tickets and not dealing with the real problems
    - a waste of city money once people sue because this law ignores due process

    I will happily say I told you so when the above comes to be.

    People do you wanna 'feel' safer or BE safer?

  • seandr

    This is embarrassing.

    P.S. It would be nice if the $2 a week I spent on Real Change got me a decent paper.

  • seandr

    This is embarrassing.

    P.S. It would be nice if the $2 a week I spent on Real Change got me a decent paper.

  • Good_Grief

    You reallly would expect a more reasonable response from this guy? This was exactly what I have come to expect from Mr. Harris.

    While I think he has quite a few good points in his argument, his incessant “punishing the poor” line makes me ill. I am looking forward to this passing with a veto-proof majority.

    It was also nice to see that the mayor has become the mouthpiece for Real Change — he was on KING tonight clearly regurgitating the talking points fed to him.

  • Good_Grief

    You reallly would expect a more reasonable response from this guy? This was exactly what I have come to expect from Mr. Harris.

    While I think he has quite a few good points in his argument, his incessant “punishing the poor” line makes me ill. I am looking forward to this passing with a veto-proof majority.

    It was also nice to see that the mayor has become the mouthpiece for Real Change — he was on KING tonight clearly regurgitating the talking points fed to him.

  • Good_Grief

    Indeed — I but it pretty regularly, sometimes the same edition more than once. It's a crappy rag with no useful “news” in it, but I have figured it was something small I could do for the individuals trying to make a go of it. Now that I have read this, knowing that Ral Change helps keep Harris in tofu and granola will i think defininitely make me less likely to buy — talk about punishing the poor….

  • Good_Grief

    Indeed — I but it pretty regularly, sometimes the same edition more than once. It's a crappy rag with no useful “news” in it, but I have figured it was something small I could do for the individuals trying to make a go of it. Now that I have read this, knowing that Ral Change helps keep Harris in tofu and granola will i think defininitely make me less likely to buy — talk about punishing the poor….

  • Good_Grief

    Sarah's sepcialty is telling you what you should think.

  • Good_Grief

    Sarah's sepcialty is telling you what you should think.

  • Good_Grief

    What a bunch of gibberish — put your bong down for 5 minutes.

  • Good_Grief

    What a bunch of gibberish — put your bong down for 5 minutes.

  • Selma

    Lots of people say what they think. The Internet is overrun by people saying what they think. You've said what you think multiple times today alone!

    “As in THINK, not just believe because it's comforting.” That's precious. How wonderful it must be to be the one, true arbiter of all that is right and correct in the world. It makes debate so much easier when you can tell the other side that they're wrong because they're delusional.

    Two can play at that game, but it doesn't get us very far.

  • Selma

    Lots of people say what they think. The Internet is overrun by people saying what they think. You've said what you think multiple times today alone!

    “As in THINK, not just believe because it's comforting.” That's precious. How wonderful it must be to be the one, true arbiter of all that is right and correct in the world. It makes debate so much easier when you can tell the other side that they're wrong because they're delusional.

    Two can play at that game, but it doesn't get us very far.

  • voter

    I'm evidently really slow here, but I don't understand why this piece is so insulting. He's simply lining out the types of lies and then providing evidence that supports the fact that in the push for this ordinance lies are being spoken.

    The hyperbole underlying Mr. Burgess's legislation is what is most disappointing to me. It's unfortunate to see Mr. O'Brien supporting this vote.

  • voter

    I'm evidently really slow here, but I don't understand why this piece is so insulting. He's simply lining out the types of lies and then providing evidence that supports the fact that in the push for this ordinance lies are being spoken.

    The hyperbole underlying Mr. Burgess's legislation is what is most disappointing to me. It's unfortunate to see Mr. O'Brien supporting this vote.

  • Adam Bejan Parast

    There is a difference between have an opinion and having an opinion that you articulate well.

  • bgtothen

    There is a difference between have an opinion and having an opinion that you articulate well.

  • Ed Glosser, Trivial Psychic

    Actually, my mind was not made up, you may have lived this for a few months and heard all the arguments, but I have not.
    So, good luck, jackass.

  • Ed Glosser, Trivial Psychic

    Actually, my mind was not made up, you may have lived this for a few months and heard all the arguments, but I have not.
    So, good luck, jackass.

  • Tim Harris

    All of you who find it so unthinkable that anyone would ever say someone is lying in print haven't had much to say about whether the lies I call out are really not lies. I'd like to hear more about that?

  • Tim Harris

    All of you who find it so unthinkable that anyone would ever say someone is lying in print haven't had much to say about whether the lies I call out are really not lies. I'd like to hear more about that?

  • Shannon

    The biggest lie of this discussion is the use of the word JAIL. We're talking a civil infraction here, folks, not a criminal offense. An individual cited for violation of this new ordinance would not, could not, go to jail for the violation. Don't know if this falls under the heading of Lies of Exaggeration or Lies of Fabrication. Perhaps a garden-variety Bald-faced Lie?

  • Shannon

    The biggest lie of this discussion is the use of the word JAIL. We're talking a civil infraction here, folks, not a criminal offense. An individual cited for violation of this new ordinance would not, could not, go to jail for the violation. Don't know if this falls under the heading of Lies of Exaggeration or Lies of Fabrication. Perhaps a garden-variety Bald-faced Lie?

  • Tim Harris

    Read the Seattle Human Rights Commission report at their website and then say that, and if you want to read something with more substance, go to consensusproject.org, a DoJ funded research group who finds that quality of life ordinances have been a major contributor to the over-incarceration of blacks and the mentally ill. Next?

  • Tim Harris

    Read the Seattle Human Rights Commission report at their website and then say that, and if you want to read something with more substance, go to consensusproject.org, a DoJ funded research group who finds that quality of life ordinances have been a major contributor to the over-incarceration of blacks and the mentally ill. Next?

  • Keep it simple

    When evidence is empirical, you can't fault Harris on the grounds that he rejects Burgess' opinion. Burgess can't have an “opinion” on how many tickets were issued in Tacoma. It is a matter of public record. My children could make an accurate determination as to how many tickets were issued. How can Burgess have a different “opinion”.

    I lie is a mis-statement of fact when there is a reasonable expectation you have access to the facts. An opinion is how you feel you/we should respond to the facts. You can't try to change opinion by changing the facts–unless of course, you're a liar.

  • Keep it simple

    When evidence is empirical, you can't fault Harris on the grounds that he rejects Burgess' opinion. Burgess can't have an “opinion” on how many tickets were issued in Tacoma. It is a matter of public record. My children could make an accurate determination as to how many tickets were issued. How can Burgess have a different “opinion”.

    I lie is a mis-statement of fact when there is a reasonable expectation you have access to the facts. An opinion is how you feel you/we should respond to the facts. You can't try to change opinion by changing the facts–unless of course, you're a liar.

  • dorsolplants

    There is a problem with aggressive panhandling downtown, you can't say there isn't or you would be lying. The problem with Councilmember Burgess' Proposal isn't that it targets the poor, its the it isn't the most efficient way to handle this issue. Boston and Cambridge, MA both have had serious panhandling problems in the past and both have taken different paths than the one Burgess has laid out and they work. The reason that they work is because they are service driven ordinances that work to separate those who are panhandling because they need help and those who are being overly aggressive and often times found to not even be homeless.

    There are better ways to handle this issue than what Councilmember Burgess is proposing, and thats why we should oppose the ordinance.

  • dorsolplants

    There is a problem with aggressive panhandling downtown, you can't say there isn't or you would be lying. The problem with Councilmember Burgess' Proposal isn't that it targets the poor, its the it isn't the most efficient way to handle this issue. Boston and Cambridge, MA both have had serious panhandling problems in the past and both have taken different paths than the one Burgess has laid out and they work. The reason that they work is because they are service driven ordinances that work to separate those who are panhandling because they need help and those who are being overly aggressive and often times found to not even be homeless.

    There are better ways to handle this issue than what Councilmember Burgess is proposing, and thats why we should oppose the ordinance.

  • Michael G

    I would point out that Burgess's plan does include increasing services, together with continuing the plan to step up the number of police officers.

  • Michael G

    I would point out that Burgess's plan does include increasing services, together with continuing the plan to step up the number of police officers.

  • dorsolplants

    None was included in the original ordinance and very minimal increases with this one. Councilmember Burgess himself has pointed out that this doesn't contain all of the services, but is one part of a package of changes for this issue.

    That is my concern around its efficiency with the political equation always changing I don't think its possible to do incremental policy changes at the city level (personal opinion). Had we model ourselves after a city that started with services and worked toward policing I think you'd find fewer people fighting against it, and you would find fewer of the homeless who aren't aggressive being targetted. It would also have left the over simplified “they hate the poor” argument dead in the water

  • dorsolplants

    None was included in the original ordinance and very minimal increases with this one. Councilmember Burgess himself has pointed out that this doesn't contain all of the services, but is one part of a package of changes for this issue.

    That is my concern around its efficiency with the political equation always changing I don't think its possible to do incremental policy changes at the city level (personal opinion). Had we model ourselves after a city that started with services and worked toward policing I think you'd find fewer people fighting against it, and you would find fewer of the homeless who aren't aggressive being targetted. It would also have left the over simplified “they hate the poor” argument dead in the water

  • fount

    Well, here's what Mr. Harris has done for the past several decades: he's started a non-profit newspaper that gives hundreds if not thousands of homeless and extremely low income people a stable job and a small source of revenue. Mr. Harris' clients aren't aggressively panhandling because they don't need to: they earn income, thanks to an organization that he steers.

    So what exactly are you doing, other than working for tougher restrictions on speech so that you can see a “different” downtown?

  • fount

    Well, here's what Mr. Harris has done for the past several decades: he's started a non-profit newspaper that gives hundreds if not thousands of homeless and extremely low income people a stable job and a small source of revenue. Mr. Harris' clients aren't aggressively panhandling because they don't need to: they earn income, thanks to an organization that he steers.

    So what exactly are you doing, other than working for tougher restrictions on speech so that you can see a “different” downtown?

  • Michael G

    Most of my concerns have already been addressed, but I would add one thing. It may be fashionable to rail against the Downtown Seattle Association, the Mariners, and other of the major businesses, but these are at the heart of the city's economy. If we neglect the needs of business and allow business to decline, then there will be more poverty in Seattle.

  • Michael G

    Most of my concerns have already been addressed, but I would add one thing. It may be fashionable to rail against the Downtown Seattle Association, the Mariners, and other of the major businesses, but these are at the heart of the city's economy. If we neglect the needs of business and allow business to decline, then there will be more poverty in Seattle.

  • fount

    …but does it fund them, or just talk about them?

  • fount

    …but does it fund them, or just talk about them?

  • http://twitter.com/cpk Charles

    As usual for a Seattle political issue, nearly all sides miss the point.

    The problem is not and never will be the homeless. Most homeless people don't panhandle to begin with. The few who do are relatively benign.

    Aggressive panhandlers are not the typical down-and-out person. They are either severely mentally ill or are opportunistic thugs. The latter group, especially, is growing like crazy downtown. THREE TIMES last week, I saw groups of young thugs near Westlake intimidate and grope young women walking by.

    And if you think these thugs are hard on the affluent women walking through the Retail Core, just think about how bad they could be towards the homeless. If anything, sweeping this sort of element off the streets helps the homeless more than anyone.

    Unfortunately, Burgess' ordinance is irrelevant, which is why I think I am coming down against it. All it does is make Burgess look like a better candidate for mayor, which is the LAST freaking thing any of us should want.

    The cops are not terribly interested in dealing with this problem. They are more interested in keeping an eye on the anti-war protesters at 4th & Pine every Saturday than doing their actual jobs. We can't rely on the police and we can't rely on Burgess. People who live and work downtown need to find community-based solutions to the problem (and no, that doesn't mean the DSA greasing Burgess' palm).

  • http://twitter.com/cpk Charles

    As usual for a Seattle political issue, nearly all sides miss the point.

    The problem is not and never will be the homeless. Most homeless people don't panhandle to begin with. The few who do are relatively benign.

    Aggressive panhandlers are not the typical down-and-out person. They are either severely mentally ill or are opportunistic thugs. The latter group, especially, is growing like crazy downtown. THREE TIMES last week, I saw groups of young thugs near Westlake intimidate and grope young women walking by.

    And if you think these thugs are hard on the affluent women walking through the Retail Core, just think about how bad they could be towards the homeless. If anything, sweeping this sort of element off the streets helps the homeless more than anyone.

    Unfortunately, Burgess' ordinance is irrelevant, which is why I think I am coming down against it. All it does is make Burgess look like a better candidate for mayor, which is the LAST freaking thing any of us should want.

    The cops are not terribly interested in dealing with this problem. They are more interested in keeping an eye on the anti-war protesters at 4th & Pine every Saturday than doing their actual jobs. We can't rely on the police and we can't rely on Burgess. People who live and work downtown need to find community-based solutions to the problem (and no, that doesn't mean the DSA greasing Burgess' palm).

  • Steve Shay

    Those of you here who state you regularly purchase Real Change but will no longer do so as a result of this article are punishing the poor, not Tim Harris.

  • steveshay

    Those of you here who state you regularly purchase Real Change but will no longer do so as a result of this article are punishing the poor, not Tim Harris.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    I think Harris should have quoted Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

    “You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.”

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    I think Harris should have quoted Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

    “You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.”

  • Tim Harris

    People who say that are rarely Real Change buyers in the first place.

  • Tim Harris

    People who say that are rarely Real Change buyers in the first place.

  • sarah68

    Many people play that game, but not all play it very well. The writers I mentioned do. But that's what I think; you may think differently, and are welcome to, since no one is the “true arbiter” of anything.

  • sarah68

    Many people play that game, but not all play it very well. The writers I mentioned do. But that's what I think; you may think differently, and are welcome to, since no one is the “true arbiter” of anything.

  • sarah68

    It does not fund them. It just talks about them.

  • sarah68

    It does not fund them. It just talks about them.

  • Ranter

    I have a hard time believing this gentleman has a title. He sounds more like a ranting lunatic.

  • Ranter

    I have a hard time believing this gentleman has a title. He sounds more like a ranting lunatic.

  • seven

    Both this guy and Burgess have their heads up their butt

  • seven

    Both this guy and Burgess have their heads up their butt

  • T_Chen

    Mr. Harris, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

    I have relatives in countries where panhandling is actually about survival. Have you ever been to Hong Kong? Beggars who dare to beg there are missing most limbs, making it clear that they cannot work to provide for themselves. That is not the case in Seattle, where able-bodied men pace around street corners in Belltown aggressively bark at passersby to give them money. Or punk kids in the U-District stand around with their dogs and signs asking for beer money. Are you telling me these people cannot pick apples in Yakima?

    What studies can you point to that break down spending by panhandlers? What percentage to cigarettes, booze, and drugs? There are food banks, disability benefits, food stamps, and soup kitchens in our city. There is no one starving because they had nowhere to eat.

    And yet you have the temerity to make this about poverty! The real poor are working hard every day to survive and put food on the table in our world. Panhandling in Seattle is not about poverty. And this ordinance is about specific behavior that violates the rights of others, especially vulnerable people like women and the elderly to be free from behavior that violates their right to be free from fear as they walk the streets. If you want more people to move to the suburbs and drive everywhere in giant SUVs rather than walk through walkable, urban streets, then you should oppose this ordinance and other moves to reclaim the streets for the 95% of the public.

  • T_Chen

    Mr. Harris, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

    I have relatives in countries where panhandling is actually about survival. Have you ever been to Hong Kong? Beggars who dare to beg there are missing most limbs, making it clear that they cannot work to provide for themselves. That is not the case in Seattle, where able-bodied men pace around street corners in Belltown aggressively bark at passersby to give them money. Or punk kids in the U-District stand around with their dogs and signs asking for beer money. Are you telling me these people cannot pick apples in Yakima?

    What studies can you point to that break down spending by panhandlers? What percentage to cigarettes, booze, and drugs? There are food banks, disability benefits, food stamps, and soup kitchens in our city. There is no one starving because they had nowhere to eat.

    And yet you have the temerity to make this about poverty! The real poor are working hard every day to survive and put food on the table in our world. Panhandling in Seattle is not about poverty. And this ordinance is about specific behavior that violates the rights of others, especially vulnerable people like women and the elderly to be free from behavior that violates their right to be free from fear as they walk the streets. If you want more people to move to the suburbs and drive everywhere in giant SUVs rather than walk through walkable, urban streets, then you should oppose this ordinance and other moves to reclaim the streets for the 95% of the public.

  • Shannon

    While I have the greatest respect for the HRC, the only words that matter are those contained in the ordinance. It really doesn't matter what “parade of horribles” is trotted out to make your point, the DoJ did NOT find that THIS ordinance would be a major contributor to the over-incarceration of blacks and the mentally ill. To extrapolate a specific outcome from a study that did not consider this ordinance in this city is sophistry of the rankest (and most amaturish) kind.

  • Shannon

    While I have the greatest respect for the HRC, the only words that matter are those contained in the ordinance. It really doesn't matter what “parade of horribles” is trotted out to make your point, the DoJ did NOT find that THIS ordinance would be a major contributor to the over-incarceration of blacks and the mentally ill. To extrapolate a specific outcome from a study that did not consider this ordinance in this city is sophistry of the rankest (and most amaturish) kind.

  • Tim Harris

    Please. You're clearly not interested in understanding the first thing about this. To dismiss the SHRC analysis of the legislation and its impact as an irrelevant “parade of horribles” while claiming “the greatest respect” for their work doesn't even rise to “sophistry.” Sophistry at least employs logic. Your argument contradicts itself and leaves logic behind.

  • Tim Harris

    Please. You're clearly not interested in understanding the first thing about this. To dismiss the SHRC analysis of the legislation and its impact as an irrelevant “parade of horribles” while claiming “the greatest respect” for their work doesn't even rise to “sophistry.” Sophistry at least employs logic. Your argument contradicts itself and leaves logic behind.

  • Morning Fizzy

    “What studies can you point to that break down spending by panhandlers? “

    Do you have any statistics as to how many people have been assaulted by panhandlers? I don't like them on the exits of freeways and other roadside locations, but they don't deserve to be arrested or ticketed, only later to be arrested for a warrant violation.

    Burgess and people like you are putting far more fear into people's lives than the panhandlers are.

  • Morning Fizzy

    “What studies can you point to that break down spending by panhandlers? “

    Do you have any statistics as to how many people have been assaulted by panhandlers? I don't like them on the exits of freeways and other roadside locations, but they don't deserve to be arrested or ticketed, only later to be arrested for a warrant violation.

    Burgess and people like you are putting far more fear into people's lives than the panhandlers are.

  • Jschmitt

    Given that the most offensive panhandlers I've recently encountered in Seattle were selling “Real Change” magazine, Tim Harris should take a hard look at the message his organization is sending.

    If only the “Real Change” panhandlers would use humor instead of sarcasm and humiliation in their sales attempts, I might be more sympathetic to their cause. (Do they treat men the same way, or do they especially target women with their nasty comments?)

    I do agree that I've never felt threatened, but I'm never walking alone after dark either.

  • Jschmitt

    Given that the most offensive panhandlers I've recently encountered in Seattle were selling “Real Change” magazine, Tim Harris should take a hard look at the message his organization is sending.

    If only the “Real Change” panhandlers would use humor instead of sarcasm and humiliation in their sales attempts, I might be more sympathetic to their cause. (Do they treat men the same way, or do they especially target women with their nasty comments?)

    I do agree that I've never felt threatened, but I'm never walking alone after dark either.

  • kjpt

    If you have been mistreated by a Real Change vendor, call their office and complain. I have volunteered there and the staff is very proactive about handling complaints. Vendors have to follow rules to sell and if someone is saying something nasty to women, then they would likely be fired. I have never run into a Real Change vendor I considered rude, crude or aggressive.

  • kjpt

    If you have been mistreated by a Real Change vendor, call their office and complain. I have volunteered there and the staff is very proactive about handling complaints. Vendors have to follow rules to sell and if someone is saying something nasty to women, then they would likely be fired. I have never run into a Real Change vendor I considered rude, crude or aggressive.

  • http://twitter.com/piedradelocura C. Eliyah

    Honestly, I don't know what to think about this. As a formerly homeless person, I am more than a little bit intimidated by the blatant categorizations of all the city's poor into categories of either a) hopeless nutcases, or b) aggressive able-bodied men (or “thugs”) who just want to sort of hang out and solicit money from people.

    First of all, there are a lot of homeless people who are neither crazy nor thugs. A lot of us are just trying to get to our next step but we lack the economic resources to do so. Homeless people have different ways of dealing with the surround of force that one encounters in a society with little or no safety net.

    Perhaps you've all forgotten that there are prerequisites to obtaining employment like telephones, good clothes and addresses. Perhaps none of you have noticed that the homeless shelters and programs like The Salvation Army have been full up for years. This lack of attention to our plight is most likely due to the fact that, after running from sprinklers all night that are designed to interrupt our sleep and soak our clothes through and through (as a “deterrent” to “loitering in public spaces”), you most likely find us passed out on the sidewalk in the few hours a day we can sleep between 6 and 10 am and either step over us or harass us to leave. Far from being given a hand up, and even farther from any sort of hand out, people who find themselves homeless are swept away into the gutters and the shadows of this society with very few economic options for survival.

    Now me, I turned to crime and drugs when I found myself there. I've never been really good at asking for anything from anyone for free, and I wasn't about to start trying on the streets. As a result I have a criminal record and a lot of scars on my arms that follow me wherever I go. Some people see panhandling as a better alternative to all of that. Some people even see panhandling as a pretty good way to get a few bucks together for a beer or some dope. They figure it sure beats going through people's mailboxes and collecting their personal information. Of course, this is conjecture, but I would almost bet real money that's what they think.

    Now, a number of laws have been passed in recent years targeting the *visible* homeless. Yes, this most likely includes those who are mentally ill, those who have drug and alcohol problems, those who ask for money, and those who sleep in tents. But you can't categorically group all of those people together. Until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes, frankly, you really don't know what their abilities are. Not all disabilities are visible, and even if someone doesn't have a visible disability, that's really no sure sign in a 100% capitalist society that they don't need any help. There are winners and losers in this society. Maybe you don't like to be reminded of that on your way to your law office while you're sipping your double tall mocha–I sure as hell don't–but it's a fact, and someday we're going to have to learn to deal with it instead of letting people die in the cold winter air of this city.

    What you all lack is compassion. You lack the sort of compassion that would allow you to see disheveled people as reflections of yourselves. Maybe those same people are the people whose problems you couldn't deal with because you had to get your college applications in. Maybe they are the people who see the world in such a different way that they can't function in the world you've created. Maybe someday this society should wake up and realize how ******* crazy it is to let people die in the street like that. Maybe a society or civilization has a responsibility to help and to train and to rehabilitate the most disadvantaged of its members–you know, sort of like what Christ talked about when he spoke about those things we should do “unto the least of these.”

    So go ahead and criticize the number of times Tim uses the word “lie” or the number of times I start paragraphs with “now” or whatever suits your yuppiness. Until I start seeing some real grassroots and/or governmental programs out there to help the homeless instead of push us into the frigid waters of the Puget Sound, I don't think any one of you can actually look the destitute in the eye with a clear conscience.

  • http://twitter.com/piedradelocura C. Eliyah

    Honestly, I don't know what to think about this. As a formerly homeless person, I am more than a little bit intimidated by the blatant categorizations of all the city's poor into groups of either a) hopeless nutcases, or b) aggressive able-bodied men (or “thugs”) who just want to sort of hang out and solicit money from people.

    First of all, there are a lot of homeless people who are neither crazy nor thugs. The majority of homeless people are women and children. A lot of us are just trying to get to our next step but we lack the economic resources to do so. Homeless people have different ways of dealing with the surround of force that one encounters in a society with little or no safety net.

    Perhaps you've all forgotten that there are prerequisites to obtaining employment like telephones, good clothes and addresses. Perhaps none of you have noticed that the homeless shelters and programs like The Salvation Army have been full up for years. This lack of attention to our plight is most likely due to the fact that, after running from sprinklers all night that are designed to interrupt our sleep and soak our clothes through and through (as a “deterrent” to “loitering in public spaces”), you most likely find us passed out on the sidewalk in the few hours a day we can sleep between 6 and 10 am and either step over us or harass us to leave. Far from being given a hand up, and even farther from any sort of hand out, people who find themselves homeless are swept away into the gutters and the shadows of this society with very few economic options for survival.

    Now me, I turned to crime and drugs when I found myself there. I've never been really good at asking for anything from anyone for free, and I wasn't about to start trying on the streets. As a result I have a criminal record and a lot of scars on my arms that follow me wherever I go. Some people see panhandling as a better alternative to all of that. Some people even see panhandling as a pretty good way to get a few bucks together for a beer or some dope. They figure it sure beats going through people's mailboxes and collecting their personal information. Of course, this is conjecture, but I would almost bet real money that's what they think.

    Now, a number of laws have been passed in recent years targeting the *visible* homeless. Yes, this most likely includes those who are mentally ill, those who have drug and alcohol problems, those who ask for money, and those who sleep in tents. But you can't categorically group all of those people together. Until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes, frankly, you really don't know what their abilities are. Not all disabilities are visible, and even if someone doesn't have a visible disability, that's really no sure sign in a 100% capitalist society that they don't need any help. There are winners and losers in this society. Maybe you don't like to be reminded of that on your way to your law office while you're sipping your double tall mocha–I sure as hell don't–but it's a fact, and someday we're going to have to learn to deal with it instead of letting people die in the cold winter air of this city.

    What you all lack is compassion. You lack the sort of compassion that would allow you to see disheveled people as reflections of yourselves. Maybe those same people are the people whose problems you couldn't deal with because you had to get your college applications in. Maybe they are the people who see the world in such a different way that they can't function in the world you've created. Maybe someday this society should wake up and realize how ******* crazy it is to let people die in the street like that. Maybe a society or civilization has a responsibility to help and to train and to rehabilitate the most disadvantaged of its members–you know, sort of like what Christ talked about when he spoke about those things we should do “unto the least of these.”

    So go ahead and criticize the number of times Tim uses the word “lie” or the number of times I start paragraphs with “now” or whatever suits your yuppiness. Until I start seeing some real grassroots and/or governmental programs out there to help the homeless instead of push us into the frigid waters of the Puget Sound, I don't think any one of you can actually look the destitute in the eye with a clear conscience.

  • ivan

    The worst, most aggressive street panhandlers are on Wall Street. Crack down on them, then talk to me about Seattle.

  • ivan

    The worst, most aggressive street panhandlers are on Wall Street. Crack down on them, then talk to me about Seattle.