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McGinn Says His Rail Plan Will Be Affordable, Run on Surface Streets

At his monthly brown-bag meeting with the press this afternoon, Mayor Mike McGinn reaffirmed his commitment to putting a light rail measure on a citywide ballot within two years, despite a recent report by city council staff showing that a $1.5 to $2 billion West Seattle/Ballard rail bond measure would wipe out the city’s capacity to take on any additional debt.

“We are going to try to minimize the amount of expensive infrastructure” associated with rail construction, McGinn said, mostly by building rail on the surface on existing city streets. That, obviously, would mean taking out lanes of traffic—a move that caused major political problems for the now-defunct monorail, whose concrete pylons would have taken out traffic lanes in West Seattle, Ballard, and downtown.

McGinn said he isn’t worried about the political implications of removing traffic lanes. And he declined to commit to a specific light-rail route, saying, “We’re not starting with lines on a map.” He noted, however, that 15th Avenue NW—where the monorail was supposed to run—would be “an obvious corridor” to get to Ballard.

McGinn also addressed his proposed $243 million ballot measure to replace the waterfront seawall, which has gotten a cool reception from the city council. Asked whether he would seek money from the federal Army Corps of Engineers to help fund seawall replacement—as council member Nick Licata has suggested—McGinn said he didn’t think the feds were likely to help Seattle fund the seawall without substantial city funding up front.

“When I went back to Washington, D.C. in January … I received no encouragement that there was any likelihood of getting Corps money,” McGinn said. “I think we’re going to have to put up some of our own money first. … I don’t think it’s realistic to think that the Corps is going to show up with $250 million to take care of our seawall.”




  • notafiree

    here we go again…

    1. oddball “we must absolutely do this great new idea we dreamed up on our white boards on the seventh floor!”
    2. but wait, we can't do that because there isn't enough money to do that or something large must be done first.
    3. blame everyone else. (“Wells” we'll expect this bit from you)

    ready… fire!!! …aim.

  • Andrew

    NO NO NO NO NO! Light-rail is fine (subways are better), but whatever you do! Don't put the lightrail on surface streets!!!!! You will so regret it. Please! The money is worth doing it right.

    Put it underground like any other city would do.

  • Jay

    Paris' new light rail line runs completely in the street, a very busy street, and carries 100,000 people per day. It's a great piece of urban infrastructure and has been so successful that they are going to triple the length of the line. It would be great to see something done like this in Seattle between downtown, Lower Queen Anne and Ballard.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Tramway_Line_3

  • davidsucher

    Jay,
    How wide is the right-of-way in Paris on route of Paris Tramway Line 3?
    As compared to Seattle?
    That's a key question.

  • Jason_Mitchell

    Underground “like any other city”? Off the top of my head, Portland, San Diego, Salt Lake City, Denver, Charlotte, Phoenix, Houston, Minneapolis, and San Francisco all have at-grade light rail—as do dozens of European cities.

    I'm all for tunneling in a perfect world, but the main advantage of light rail over heavy rail (what you're calling subways, I guess), is cost. You tunnel and you lose much of that advantage. You can do surface-street rail perfectly well, it's just a matter of engineering and design.

  • Chris

    Light rail in a street used to be called a street-car. They are slow, load passengers from the middle of the street, and induce delays to every other form of traffic including delivery trucks and buses.

    If anyone really cares for the environment, wants to reduce emissions, fight global warming, and have a first class transit service that is efficient and quiet, like one that is electricity powered and loads from the curb, stay with a real neat idea – electric trolleys.

    Oh! I forgot. We already have them.

    Conversely, if we use the street grade SLUT as a brand new, sterling case in point, why it enjoys a per trip subsidy of about $25 per rider.

    That's right! About 25 bucks a trip.

    Why? Well take its cots of $52 million for just over a mile. Add its annual operating cost of $2 million. take money at 6% per year for a 30-year bond. Takes its ridership of 1,000 a day and there ticket cost of $1.50 and guess what you get.

    One big expense.

    Now, I voted for McGinn since I thought from his rhetoric he had something between his ears.

    How wrong I was.

    McGinn is just plain ignorant.

    Sincerely,

    I transportation engineer with 49 years of experience.

  • Mac

    As a light rail corridor, I like Elliot/15th. I think one advantage it has is a limited number of crossing streets, with the hill on one side and railroad and port on the other. However, they did just spend a significant sum of money paving this street for bus rapid transit. That would all be torn up for the necessary utility work (relocation,separation – see MLK) that goes with light rail. It is a major freight mobility corridor, which should be considered. Where the idea is most unrealistic is financially. The relatively tiny SLUT cost $50 mil. Where will the hundreds of millions needed to make this happen come from?

  • West Seattle Waiter

    geez i got a great idea lets spend $2billion off a white board idea. here's a piece of advice Mike and the Ambassadors…. Greg Nickels spent 15 years in getting the buy in of the community in building a mass transit system and it takes a lot of time to do this stuff…. everything from finace to engineering to community groups to court challenges — fed/state/local/ stakeholders. its real work McGinn and right now you have almost zero credibility with anyone to make this happen.

  • Jay

    You mean road engineer with 49 years experience. If you were a transportation engineer you'd know the difference between a streetcar and what McGinn is proposing. McGinn is talking about taking street space to build dedicated ROW for a light rail line. The trains wouldn't be running in mixed traffic like a streetcar.

    BTW, the South Lake Union streetcar wasn't financed with bonds. Most of the construction costs were paid for by a LID and grants.

  • whitney

    There is much to be said for West Seattle's comments. We are on the cusp of having a critical mass for regional transit. It would be nice to reach a point regionally where we collective recognize the need to grow these systems on an ongoing basis. That seems to be the case in cities like DC, SF and Portland. Greg Nickels set the stage for that with the last ST ballot measure. McGinn's proposal is ill-timed and counter productive.

  • Jay

    It varies quite a bit from one neighborhood to the next, and depending on the layout of the stations, but the width of the T3 Tramway is very similar to the section of MLK where Link runs. Two traffic lanes in each direction with two tracks in the middle.

  • sad sad sad

    If only Papa Greg and Saint Dwight were still with us….Every dog would be dropping Dilettante chocolates and the homeless would perform world-class contemporary ballets on our vibrantly walkable streets that are lined with mixed-use commercial/residential housing that was filled with affluent diverse workforce community members.

    It's all wrong now. WRONG! I tells ya…..

  • morning fizzy

    Paris tramway

    Check it out

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ucG-9fGU4

  • wheeee!

    nice. unlikely we could build anything as simple with peds, vehicles etc all in the same space – our litigious society would require a lot more… ummm.. stuff (signs, lights, barriers, handrails, etc). and sadly we don;t have but a few right of ways that wide.

    we also have a ship canal and the Duwamish to cross.

    but thanks for the ride!

  • marymaryquitecontrary

    Ha ha ha ha! It's been an intense week so thanks, McG, for this bit of refreshing humor. Mayor Moonbeam, indeed. “I don't know how we'll pay for it & I don't have a clear idea of where it will go & I don't really care that people will be pissed off because poof! I'm just going to wave my (recycled bamboo) wand and magic light rail cars will fly out of my ass!” This guy has the political chops of the Amnesty International club members who tabled during my high school lunch period. If Greg Nickels promises not to re-hire Tim Ceis, can we please bring him back from Harvard?

  • Jay

    He hasn't actually put a proposal forward yet, so it's a little premature to be calling his proposal ill-timed. He said he wants to develop a proposal within the next two years. There's a difference between telling the public what he's considering and actually presenting a concrete proposal. Most cities have no problem doing these things in a reasonable amount of time, I don't know why everything in Seattle has to be done at such a snail's pace.

  • morning fizzy

    It will be very interesting to see how LR or SC can go from Ballard to West Seattle without tunnels, elevated and new water crossings.

    If LR could be built for the same cost as the RV Link 14 miles it would be about $2.8B – LR would use the old Interurban 14th NW route to 65th saving land purchases, but the rest of the route would be on expensive turf compared to MLK.

  • MudBaby

    #1. If it runs on surface streets it won't be fast, and I can't really see it running at all on the Ballard Bridge.
    #2. No matter what Mayor Moonbeam says, it will be extraordinarily expensive.
    #3. If we could magically have a bucket of $$ at our disposal we could have buses that ran every 15 minutes, thereby achieving actual rapid transit (because in many cases people spend more time waiting at bus stops than they spend on the bus). The fact is there are no buckets of $$ and Metro is so strapped it's cutting back service.
    #4. It is irresponsible to completely max out Seattle's bonding authority for another SLUT writ large.

  • morning fizzy

    Don't like streetcars but the fact is we didn't bond to build it, except the LID. The bigger problem with SLU-T is the operating subsidies that take Metro hours AND general funds.

    Metro did a study of a rapid ride trolleybus network that is much less expensive than any steel rail system. The frequency would be 10 minute minimums and some at 6 to 7.5 minutes.

    Check it out:

    http://globaltelematics.com/pitf/KingCountyMetr…

  • Stacy

    Its attitudes like this that result in nothing getting done.

  • Mickymse

    This is hardly some oddball whiteboard idea. The city's been studying rapid transit and working on these two transportation corridors for at least 20 years now.

    And I don't think McGinn is proposing a Seattle system. I believe he's proposing to have Seattle plan and pay for a system that would be run by Sound Transit as part of Link.

    How is any of that odd?

  • realitybasedtransit

    To say McGinn has a rail “plan” overstates the level of planning that the Mayor's office has done. They have no alignment, no engineering, no design, and no process to get there. The beauty of light rail is that is can go elevated, in a tunnel, or at grade.

    The big cost drivers are going to be driven by alignment. Separate and expensive bridges are going to be needed for both the Ship Canal and the Duwamish. You may be able to run at grade for large parts of Ballard and Interbay. How to deal with Lower Queen Anne and the alignment through Downtown is likely to be far more complicated and expensive. A West Seattle route could terminate at the SODO station, but connections are much more difficult coming from Ballard.

    The West Seattle route will also need to be elevated in parts of SODO because of freight and rail complications. And the grade coming into West Seattle will also drive costs up due to the need to elevate or tunnel sections to keep the line under a 7% grade.

    Didn't we get enough of this “don't worry, we have it all figured out, trust us” stuff from the monorail crowd. McGinn and O'Brien seem to be going down the same path.

  • realitybasedtransit

    And it is poor planning that sets the region further behind–see SMP

  • Come on, Seattle

    Hey folks, our Mayor does not care how well the rail system works, as long as it takes two lanes of roadway away from cars. Just as with altering the 520 bridge (rails that will not see a train for 20 years or more) and killing the AWV bored tunnel, the Mayor wants to create gridlock to force people out of their cars.

    Did we elect him to make our commuting lives miserable?

  • danadb

    What kind of crack is this guy on? Is he Mayor of Seattle or some crackpot with oddball ideas? Unfortunately, he appears to be both.

  • danadb

    Seattle ranks #5 in the US in terms of traffic. His goal is to get us to #1. McGinn is using the office of mayor to declare a war on cars. He is simply that one dimensional.

  • Mike T

    Above ground works so well in Rainier Valley… NOT. It snarls east/west traffic. Signal wait times can be as long as eight minutes. I understand it is less expensive but it does not seem like the best option for anyone that has to drive across surface the rail path. So expect huge waits for for your left turns heading south down 15th Ave NW. The other side of the coin- our family loves and uses light rail all the time.

  • shane_schwendiman

    Comparing modern light rail with turn of the century streetcars is like comparing a Model T with a Ferrari. If you are a transportation engineer, may have heard of Transit Oriented Development. I guarantee that MLK Way will be totally transformed within a few years from running the light rail route through it, even with the economic slowdown. Many of the great neighborhoods we have now that make Seattle unique started out because they were streetcar neighborhoods built by developers around transit.

    Granted, trolley buses due have a certain amount if built infrastructure with power lines, but all it takes to change a bus route is a screwdriver to change the sign. Buses are reactionary to development and no development will ever go in because there is a great bus route close by. Conversely transit lays the foundation for future growth and studies have shown that it can return up to $7 for every $1 invested in development. It created the dense walkable neighborhoods we need to curb sprawl and accommodate the areas projected growth. It brings the density to make transit work, but you can't get the density until you have the system in place.

    I say we need to derail this 4.2 billion tunnel with no downtown exits, (over 60% of current viaduct users exit downtown), use 1.5-2 billion to place the light rail along the waterfront. Take a another billion to make traffic upgrades to the downtown grid and improve mobility of the port traffic to the routes they actually use (they don't use the viaduct), spend a few hundred million to make the Seattle Waterfront the most beautiful in the nation, and still have a billion or so left over. I think the backwards thinking leadership in this city needs a swift kick and now I think we may have a mayor that might actually do it.

  • Sam

    BART in Bay area mostly underground, idea is simple increase surface area.
    build on ground will have the same surface area.

    What's the point , plus it is ugly to look at.

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