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Burgess’ Proposal Wouldn’t Address Most Panhandling Complaints

Photo by D G H

Last week, citing complaints from downtown workers and residents about aggressive panhandling in the neighborhood, Seattle City Council member Tim Burgess rolled out an ordinance that would prohibit panhandling near ATMs and parking meters; using abusive language while asking for money; pursuing a person who has refused to give money; and offering or providing unsolicited services without consent.

The proposal, Burgess said during an early-morning public-safety forum last week, would give the city tools to deal with people who are “basically street thugs who are preying on our citizens, whether because of addiction or because of greed for money.” Although low-level crimes downtown have actually decreased, more downtown residents reported feeling unsafe in a recent survey, and “major crimes”—murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, theft, auto theft, and arson (none of which would be addressed by Burgess’ ordinance) have gone up 22 percent in the past year.

On his blog, Burgess pointed to emails from downtown residents and employees expressing concern about aggressive panhandling in the neighborhood. “To many observers, including business owners, community leaders, social services providers, and residents, we are approaching a dangerous tipping point where perceptions of crime and unsafe conditions could lead to long-term negative consequences,” Burgess wrote.

For example, one woman wrote that she has to “dodge panhandlers at every intersection” and has started avoiding places “if I know that I have to walk by someone who will treat me aggressively and rudely.” Another woman, who works at a downtown hotel, said visitors love the city “with one exception, ‘the street people.’ The visitors do not feel comfortable walking from their hotels, to the market, or catching the bus without being approached by many different panhandlers and street people along their route.”

However, an analysis by The Defender Association’s Racial Disparity Project raises questions about whether Burgess’ proposal is the right approach. The study, which looked at citizen complaints to city council members about specific panhandling incidents downtown since last September (when Burgess first raised the idea of new restrictions) reveals that the majority of the incidents citizens have complained about wouldn’t be addressed by Burgess’ proposal. Moreover, many could be addressed under existing law, which bars assault and aggressive solicitation.

Of 24 complaints reviewed in the analysis, just nine would even potentially be addressed by the new law, TDA found. Five of those nine were either too vague for TDA attorneys to say for certain if the new law would cover them. The remaining complaints could either be addressed by existing law (things like blocking the sidewalk or defecating on windows), or aren’t illegal in the first place (things like yelling at people who refuse to hand over money).

For example, one writer reported seeing “mentally ill and dangerous‐looking people, [being] chased and harassed by a panhandler, [and hearing] of [a] tourist” being assaulted.”Assault and harassment are [already] prohibited by Seattle Municipal Code,” the TDA’s analysis notes.

Similarly, a complaint about “lots of panhandlers, drug dealers, and violence” could be addressed under existing law, since drug dealing and violence are already illegal.

Nick Licata, a frequent ally of TDA, says some people will always be uncomfortable coming downtown. “There’s always a certain level of people who feel uncomfortable in big, downtown, dense places where you have a lot of people who aren’t the kind of people who live in their neighborhoods,” Licata says. “That’s the most difficult challenge of Burgess’ legislation. He’s trying to legislate away fear, and you can’t really do that.”

Asked whether he found the TDA’s analysis credible, Burgess said, “I don’t agree at all, because many people have written me about the fear of intimidation. It’s true that a lot of what people write about is just urban life and the kind of stuff that happens in the city, but intimidation is different,” Burgess said.

Licata, who says Burgess has not spoken to him about his proposal, says the provision barring panhandling within 15 feet of parking meters is “the most troublesome aspect of the bill, from a legal point of view and an enforcement point of view. We have thousands of pay stations.  You could basically eliminate half the sidewalks in Seattle.”

Burgess plans to roll out his proposal later this month, and says he believes he has enough support on the council to pass it.




  • Not fizzy in the am

    Can we get a more refined analysis here?

    1. there are huge policy and constitutional implications so to me, if Burgess' proposal only addresses part of what people complain about, that could mean he's tailored it to avoid those constitutional issues.

    2.Again, the opinion isn't supported by the math. You say “Of 24 complaints reviewed in the analysis, just nine would even potentially be addressed by the new law, TDA found.” Just nine? That's 37.5%. Light rail only serves 37.5% of Seatle, that's a reason to not build that segment, rright? We only get bike lanes on 37% or 20% or 5% of the palces we need them, is that a reason to not move forward?

    Addressing 37.5% of a problem is usually viewed as responsible, tailored, incremental policymaking. Maybe only 37.5 % of what people are complaining about can be constitutionally addressed? So only addressing 37.5% of the situations complained of is…..obeying the constitution?
    3. one of your examples includes complaint of being chased by panhandlers and his proposed law covers that, so that's not a good example of how his law doesn't cover what people complain about.

    I may not like his law either but the reason you're going after him is he may be benefitting politically from the ever-less-silent classism and racism against the homeless, if so, just say so, don't try to get all math and social “science” based, compplaining a leg. solution only addresses 37.5% of a problem is almost as bad as saying 66% is a distant third on a list of concerns where 66% say it's one of the top three concerns and the top three are all up there at around 66-75%.

  • passion

    Burgess this is not good for your image. You need to pull yourself out of this unpopular panhandling thing. Anti-poor image is not going to be helpful, and will hurt your rising political career. This is Seattle– most progressive city in the nation. Who the hell is advising you on this.. If you want shoot yourself in the foot in day light– stick with it.

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed fattailed

    I was against this proposal until my experience on the streets of downtown West Seattle yesterday. On the way to the West Seattle Farmer's Market, I encountered a band of Girl Scouts aggressively promoting cookie sales within spitting distance of a KeyBank ATM where I was withdrawing money. The situation was so extreme that I could actually hear their aggressive, repeated, high-pitched solicitations at the very moment I was entering my PIN. Then as my cash was dispensed and I nervously removed my receipt — trying to stay calm despite this invasion of my constitutional right to not be confronted by my relative class status, I saw two adult women. They were the ringleaders, I assume. They didn't seem to be doing anything but watching over the whole scene and talking discreetly to each other about god know's what. All in all, a nerve-wracking experience.

    So there they were, asking for money, repeatedly, despite my lack of interest in what was on offer, all happening well within 25 feet of an ATM. Would this be banned by the Burgess ordinance?

  • Mr. X

    …this is the same guy who was one of the only people to go on record supporting the 4-foot rule in Seattle's strip clubs, which got clobbered at the polls by 63% of voters.

    Sounds like a right-winger in centrist clothing to me.

  • Hobgoblin

    Re Nick: “You could basically eliminate half the sidewalks in Seattle (from panhandling).”

    That still leaves half where it would be allowed. Seems charitable and accommodating. Last time I checked, that's more sidewalks than can host, say… an outdoor cafe. If you view panhandling as an essential part of the urban fabric, rest easy. As a city, we would still be prioritizing panhandlers over that scourge of city life – outdoor diners.

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed fattailed

    I have a feeling his clothing preferences are more erratic than that.

  • Mr. X

    There is no 1st Amendment right to run an outdoor cafe.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    So I have to ask–have Advocat check this out. Wouldn't this infringe on their speech?

  • A.S., Seattle WA

    more panhandlers in Seattle = less people moving to seattle = less taxes paid in Seattle = more poverty in Seattle and less services for the poor. Progressive City won't always get it done.

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed fattailed

    From the famous 2005 editorial by Burgess on how he's a “values voter”, this bit on what he discussed in church before the election:

    “We discussed God's special affinity for the poor and what that means for economic and social policy. We examined God's demand for justice.”
    http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/arch…

    Has he changed Bible groups?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    We need a separate law to ban Girl Scouts. They're redistributing wealth via cookie propaganda for socialist militant aims with those cute little uniforms and adorable pleas for coercion. Even worse are those younger mint & almond rocha wielding Brownie terrorists, every time they bomb my waistline.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Plenty of people move to DC, NYC, San Fran, and other major cities that are similarly inundated with panhandlers. I always feel like there are far more when I'm in SF or NYC, compared to here.

  • sarah68

    Are you saying Publicola is going after him because he's going to run for Mayor, or that we actual Seattle residents don't like this because he's going to run for Mayor? I don't care whether he runs for President; this is a nasty idea, not necessary to maintain the social order (as opposed to curing the “social disorder” he talks about), and really stupidly framed also. What's to like when something is nasty, unnecessary, and unintelligible?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Tim, if you're reading this, and presumably you are — would you be willing to disclose numbers on just how many complaints you've received about this problem?

    Erica, would you be willing to follow up with Tim on this?

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Tim, if you're reading this, and presumably you are — would you be willing to disclose numbers on just how many complaints you've received about this problem?

    Erica, would you be willing to follow up with Tim on this?

  • A.S., Seattle WA

    Who gives 2 shits re: speech? I say we send them all over to your neighborhood Joe, where you and they can “celebrate” your respective freedoms of speech….where does it end? A friend of a friends once got stabbed because he couldn't spare a dollar for an obviously aggressive panhandler (who turned out to be surprisingly light-footed).

  • Seattle_Steve

    I suppose that its good this proposal is being nit-picked by people who don't like it or Tim. There's plenty of time to make it better. I hope the people who don't like it are interested in making it better.

    The odd thing is that a lot of the people who don't like it seem to be the same people who want people to live more densely.

    The city would clearly be better if people can feel safe in all parts of the City.

    Anyone who lives or works downtown knows that the panhandling can get downright creepy. I get the same lies from the same guys day after day – I'm from from Port Angeles and need gas money to get home seems to be a favorite.

    I'm a big guy. But I know I need to avoid certain places because there will be a sure fire hit up. My mother ought to be able to walk through the city alone without that kind of worry. Right now she can't.

    Fixing that matters.

  • sarah68

    The same thing happened to be in Lake City yesterday. They came within 1.5 feet of me. We should make a complaint to Tim and request that he include aggressive Girl Scouts in his ordinance.

  • sarah68

    No, he just didn't give in to God's demand.

  • http://www.joeszilagyi.com/ Joe Szilagyi

    Jesus, I'm just asking. I honestly have no idea how this plays out in the 1st amendment court since I'm not a lawyer and was curious.

    But yes, I'm leery on dumping on the homeless because of a few bad apples the same I'm leery about dumping on any group because of a few bad apples.

  • A.S., Seattle WA

    Agree, Joe.

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed fattailed

    Serious question: what happens when you or your mother or anybody else doesn't give money to an “aggressive” panhandler. Presumably this happens tens of thousands of times a day. I haven't heard any reports of anything *happening* as a result of not giving money — just maybe some uncomfortable looks or a feeling of unease. Those responses may be real concerns for you/your mom/others as individuals — class disparities seem to evoke painful & uncomfortable mix of the worst things in our culture — but it's hard to see why some people's emotional discomfort should be a matter of city policy.

  • Hobgoblin

    No shit, X. And half of sidewalks in Seattle available to the valuable expression of panhandling fits that bill. Revel and rejoice. Your precious freedoms are safe.

  • johnmocha

    Here's what happens…
    From Seattlecrime.com
    Aggressive Panhandler Attacks Woman in University District
    By Jonah Spangenthal-Lee

    A police report released Thurdsay indicates that just days before City Councilmember Tim Burgess unveiled a plan to crackdown on aggressive panhandling in Seattle, a woman was attacked outside of a University District grocery store by a panhandler.

    The report says that at around 7:00 pm on February 19th, a woman was listening to her iPod and loading groceries into her car in the parking lot of the Safeway at 47th and Brooklyn when a man, who'd been panhandling in front of the store walked up to her.

    The report says the man then shoved a shopping cart into the woman, striking her in the stomach. He then told the woman “You need to respect me like I respect you” and, the report says, “went back to the front of the Safeway to panhandle some more.”

    The woman didn't report the incident to police until two days later.

    According to the report, the woman told officers she “thinks that the suspect kept asking her for money while she was walking, but she couldn't hear him because of the earphones she had on.”

    The woman said she wasn't sure whether she wanted to file charges against the man—who she had never seen before—but wanted the incident documented.

  • Mr. X

    I work in the U-District and get panhandled at least daily. First Amendment freedoms are indeed precious, and I'll gladly take the annoyance of dealing with Ladouchebags and the occasional aggressive panhandler so that they aren't sacrificed for ANYBODY.

    That goes for your right to be an apologist for the burgeoning police state, too.

  • Mr. X

    Perhaps he does the drag thing like his apparent hero Rudy Giuliani?

  • Mr. X

    They were on the Ave, too – and right next to the Wells Fargo ATM, no less….

  • Mr. X

    There are already laws against aggressive panhandling, not to mention assault.

  • Hobgoblin

    Burgess' legislation doen't turn North Seattle into North Korea.

    Just curious, X – do you defend the 2nd amendment as vigorously? I've never been to keen on the argument that the 2nd allows any jackass to stockpile fully automatic assault weapons. But maybe that's just me.

  • Mr. X

    I stick up for each and every item included in the Bill of Rights.

    There are time place and manner restrictions on speech that can be imposed if they do not unduly restrict First Amendment rights, but whether the language Burgess proposes is within those limits will likely wind up being a matter for the Courts to interpret (assuming it is adopted), and from what I understand it's not a clear slam dunk.

    The 1939 Miller decision on the 2nd Amendment is a long settled precedent that bans fully automatic weapons, which I would say is about equivalent to banning those forms of pornography that actually can be banned under a host of First Amendment rulings (even though defining a machine gun is a lot less ambiguous than determining what exactly is “obscene”). Being annoyed by someone politely asking for money on a public sidewalk adjacent to a cash machine or parking meter is a different matter by several orders of magnitude.

    I'm real big on the 3rd through 10th Amendments, too (although someone ought to tell Ron Paul that his view of the 9th and 10th is a lot more circumscribed by precedent than he thinks it is).

    The 3rd Amendment may seem quaint at the moment, but as I'd definitely prefer not to have soldiers quartered in my home without my consent, I'm sticking to it.

    So where are you with the current effort to water down the Miranda warning, which the Obama Administration apparently is supporting?

    I'm sure that will make us safer, too.

  • Hobgoblin

    Good points. Made me laugh, too. Well said.

  • Anita Khandelwal

    As one of the authors of The Defender Association's analysis, I want to clarify that we analyzed only email complaints that were released along with the ordinance. If the City Council received additional emails, the
    results of the analysis might differ if we analyzed those emails. Regardless of which set of messages is used, it seems useful to examine whether the proposed ordinance would actually apply to the circumstances about which Seattle residents are complaining. We are not taking a position for or against the ordinance.

  • Josh Feit

    Not sure why X didn't give himself some more direct props on Hobgoblin's question about the 2nd Amendment.

    If I've got it right, X made a major issue out of defending the 2nd Amendment @ city hall in the late 90s.

  • Michael G

    Many self-styled social justice advocates are criticizing the proposal, but what about those who actually work with the poor and homeless?

    http://crosscut.com/2010/02/26/seattle/19624/

    Some excerpts:

    “I share the normal liberal tendency to oppose forces that might further impoverish the poor or disempower the weak. But this comes up against the reality that homeless and mentally ill people are among the most vulnerable to street aggression. I meet weekly for coffee with a man who has paranoid schizophrenia (I’ve called him 'Gerald' in these pages). Though his emotional balance is not strong, he has for many years managed his illness with the medications he hates to take. Earlier this week he phoned me to say that he wouldn’t be able to join me as usual because, he said, 'The bus stop is so scary. There are so many people dealing drugs, and people come up and ask me for money, and I look like an easy touch. They won’t leave me alone.' “

    “Support service agencies downtown (Compass Center, YWCA, Plymouth Housing Group, Downtown Emergency Services Center, and others) know that the population they serve is vulnerable to street violence. They support the proposed legislation.”

  • bgtothen

    I'm sympathetic to the TDA and what they are trying to do but reading tis report just leaves with other questions, like if these issues can already be addressed with existing laws why aren't they? Or how can improved homeless services and better/different policing reduce these types of incidents.

    I have been live and went to school in and around downtown since I was a kid and I have to say that it certainly feels like panhandling is at an all time high.

  • Mr. X

    Not the case – I think I was quoted once in a newspaper article debunking a false rumor that I was packing heat in City Council chambers. You may be conflating this with the work I did (in conjunction with Cliff Traisman from Martha Choe's office) to get rid of the City's blanket drug testing policy for new employees…

    What can I say? I like the individual rights and freedoms….

  • hmmmm

    Hey, remember when the city banned postering on light poles, because of one anecdotal story about a city light worker being injured by a nail on a pole? Where are the complaints now?

    Remember the “drug loitering ordinance”? I see there are still drug dealers downtown.

    The no sitting ordinance? I still see people “sitting”, especially in places the DSA does not care about.

    Remember the aggressive panhadling ordinance? Oh yes, didn't know we already have one of these, did we?

    Burgess is pandering, nothing more. He knows that these laws do not solve the problem, but cost the city nothing to pass, because the level of enforcement will not increase, save giving his police more reasons to “make contact” with people they arbitrarily don't like. I knows that they do cater to the “fear” of business going away, fear generated by the DSA cronies. The only way to entice thin-skinned suburbanites into the downtown core is to make it look like a place they are used to: Bellevue Square, etc.

    What is funny is that the business is going to malls and on-line places, where parking is provided for free or is unnessesary. Because of this shift in the economic structurte of retail, they want to blame the poor, instead of their inability to adapt to the changing market.

    People will continue to vote for people like Burgess, because, let's face it: Seattle is not “nice”. It's full of assholes. We are the asshole capitol of the west coast. Our government shows it, even though people don't want to admit it.

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed fattailed

    Are you seriously arguing that limits on panhandling near an ATM *protect* the poor from aggressive panhandlers who would be panhandling the panhandler while they withdraw money from their trust fund? What?

    We're not talking about the whole legislative package here, just the part that's a slap in the face to the poor & the first amendment in order to protect the class privilege of downtown shoppers & their representatives.

  • Brent

    While we are at it, can we ban aggressive council panhandling, er fundraising, within 15 feet of a parking meter, 15 feet of any city-owned property, 15 feet of any property owned by an entity that has a franchise contract with the city, and 15 feet of any law firm?

    Has anyone done a study lately on how much this aggressive panhandling, er fundraising, has cost the city?

  • Brent

    Oh, and did Mr. Burgess ask permission from the mayor, the city attorney, and the rest of the council to publicly unveil this proposal, or did he blindside everyone?

  • http://chicagopanhandler.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/chicago-panhandler-laws-and-freedom-of-speech/ Ronda Levine

    Panhandling laws bring up a lot of issues such as freedom of speech and futility of laws that fine people who are (in many cases) in bad need of money. I wrote a post about the panhandling laws in Chicago at http://chicagopanhandler.wordpress.com/2010/06/…. If your interested in discussing this issue, check it out.