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Clibborn: Government Should Pay for Roads, Not Getting People Out of Their Cars

State Rep. Judy Clibborn (D-41), head of the House Transportation Committee, outlined some of her reasons for opposing last year’s “transit-oriented communities” bill in an interview with Seattle American Institute of Architects urban design committee chair Rick Browning.  (That bill, which died in committee, would have increased density around light-rail stations.)

In the interview, Clibborn argues that the market can take care of density without government incentives, which she says would be better spent on “infrastructure” (i.e., roads) not “affordable housing or getting people out of their cars, things that pull money away from infrastructure getting built.”

Not sure how Clibborn is defining “infrastructure” here—to my mind, infrastructure includes things like housing and rail transit—but it’s hard to see how things like affordable housing and transit can be built without government incentives and funding. Kind of like roads.

In fact, Clibborn seems to tacitly acknowledge that market forces actually work against affordable housing: She blames “the banking system and the financing and the land costs” for the current lack of affordable housing near transit stops.

It’s a convoluted argument, so let’s unpack it a bit. First, Clibborn is saying  that the market will provide affordable housing and transit without government incentives. Simultaneously, she’s saying that the market won’t provide roads—roads, alone among infrastructure improvements, require government incentives to get built. Finally, contradicting her first point, she acknowledges that the market can’t build affordable housing alone, but argues that banks and land costs are to blame.

Fundamentally, Clibborn is applying different standards to roads than to every other type of infrastructure. That’s not surprising—roads are Clibborn’s thing—but it’s disappointing that one of our state’s top transportation leaders doesn’t seem to view transit and density as legitimate forms of infrastructure that merit government spending.




  • no reply

    infrastructure = things we’ll all use. i.e. ROADS.

    housing is not infrastructure.

    Cop a clue.

  • no reply

    infrastructure = things we’ll all use. i.e. ROADS.

    housing is not infrastructure.

    Cop a clue.

  • WOW!

    Would someone please show me in the City of Seattle where new roads are being built with funds appropriated from Washington State ? I don’t mean some repaving project either – a brand new road where none existed before. I mean that is the arguement here – money that IS being spent on roads should be spent on other things. So before we talk about a re-direction of State funds let’s establish if the condition actually exists.

  • WOW!

    Would someone please show me in the City of Seattle where new roads are being built with funds appropriated from Washington State ? I don’t mean some repaving project either – a brand new road where none existed before. I mean that is the arguement here – money that IS being spent on roads should be spent on other things. So before we talk about a re-direction of State funds let’s establish if the condition actually exists.

  • http://www.worldchanging.com Alex Steffen

    As long as our state defines transportation as cars, and the point of cities as mobility, instead of quality of life and access, then we’ll continue to make disastrous choices our children will have cause to regret.

  • kurisu

    Uh, Judy, if more people use transit then we won’t have to spend as many billions on infrastructure. And could you please explain to me how “the market” can take care of density in areas that aren’t zoned for it?

  • kurisu

    Uh, Judy, if more people use transit then we won’t have to spend as many billions on infrastructure. And could you please explain to me how “the market” can take care of density in areas that aren’t zoned for it?

  • Deb Eddy

    I can’t find a link to the interview. Is this just hearsay? Land use and transportation linkages are pretty darned complicated, and I’m sensing a little “out of context.”

  • Deb Eddy

    I can’t find a link to the interview. Is this just hearsay? Land use and transportation linkages are pretty darned complicated, and I’m sensing a little “out of context.”

  • http://Publicola.net/ Erica C. Barnett

    @5: Great point. I tried to link, but the PDF was too large for our server. I’ll see if I can find a linkable version, or cut and paste the whole interview after a jump, once I get home.

  • http://Publicola.net Erica C. Barnett

    @5: Great point. I tried to link, but the PDF was too large for our server. I’ll see if I can find a linkable version, or cut and paste the whole interview after a jump, once I get home.

  • ivan

    @ alex, wtf? Quality of life does not include mobility?

  • ivan

    @ alex, wtf? Quality of life does not include mobility?

  • http://www.worldchanging.com/ Alex Steffen

    “Quality of life does not include mobility?”

    The goal of cities is not “whoever moves the most people+ stuff the farthest, the most often, wins.”

    Workable cities provide neighborhoods where many of your basic needs can be met without getting in a car, facilitate select mobility patterns (by, say, connecting neighborhood cores with transit) and use intelligence and smart infrastructure to reduce wasted travel. Through the combination of those things, they provide access rather than mobility.

    In the process, smart cities find that quality of life for residents improves: people like living in walkable neighborhoods, which is why homes in walkable neighborhoods sell for a premium.

    A city focused on SoV car use is not a model for a livable city. Or a sustainable one. Or, in an era of energy shocks and climate change, an economically competitive one.

  • http://www.worldchanging.com Alex Steffen

    “Quality of life does not include mobility?”

    The goal of cities is not “whoever moves the most people+ stuff the farthest, the most often, wins.”

    Workable cities provide neighborhoods where many of your basic needs can be met without getting in a car, facilitate select mobility patterns (by, say, connecting neighborhood cores with transit) and use intelligence and smart infrastructure to reduce wasted travel. Through the combination of those things, they provide access rather than mobility.

    In the process, smart cities find that quality of life for residents improves: people like living in walkable neighborhoods, which is why homes in walkable neighborhoods sell for a premium.

    A city focused on SoV car use is not a model for a livable city. Or a sustainable one. Or, in an era of energy shocks and climate change, an economically competitive one.

  • Timothy

    Thanks for the report, Erica. I’ll be looking to read the entire interview. But, this is stunning for a Democratic Chair of the House Transportation Committee. Stunning.

  • Timothy

    Thanks for the report, Erica. I’ll be looking to read the entire interview. But, this is stunning for a Democratic Chair of the House Transportation Committee. Stunning.

  • Peter Steinbrueck

    Transportation’s share of carbon emissions, is the largest and fastest growing of all sectors in the U.S. 60 percent of it is personal cars and light trucks. Judy, we will never meet Washington State’s goals for reducing CO2 emissions unless it inlcudes substantial reductions in the amount people drive (you know, Vehicle Miles Traveled) now at three trillion miles annually nationwide, an increase five times the rate of population growth since the 1970′s. Washington is among the more car dependent states in the nation, it’s time to shift our trnsportation funding priorities. Please, at least support COMPLETE STREETS legislation!!

  • http://peter Peter Steinbrueck

    Transportation’s share of carbon emissions, is the largest and fastest growing of all sectors in the U.S. 60 percent of it is personal cars and light trucks. Judy, we will never meet Washington State’s goals for reducing CO2 emissions unless it inlcudes substantial reductions in the amount people drive (you know, Vehicle Miles Traveled) now at three trillion miles annually nationwide, an increase five times the rate of population growth since the 1970′s. Washington is among the more car dependent states in the nation, it’s time to shift our trnsportation funding priorities. Please, at least support COMPLETE STREETS legislation!!

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Pretending that cars do not exist, and that developers will flock to build density near light rail, is frustrating.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Pretending that cars do not exist, and that developers will flock to build density near light rail, is frustrating.

  • Peter Steinbrueck

    Also, Rep. Clibborn, please read Futurewise’s Transit-Oriented Communities Blueprint for Washington http://www.futurewise.org/priorities/TOCblueprint
    and support statewide legislation to advance transit oriented communiities.WE CAN”T BUILD OUR WAY OUT OF TRAFFIC CONGESTION but we can sure find a better way!

  • http://peter Peter Steinbrueck

    Also, Rep. Clibborn, please read Futurewise’s Transit-Oriented Communities Blueprint for Washington http://www.futurewise.org/priorities/TOCblueprint
    and support statewide legislation to advance transit oriented communiities.WE CAN”T BUILD OUR WAY OUT OF TRAFFIC CONGESTION but we can sure find a better way!

  • Gidge

    Whoa, Mr. Baker. Nobody is saying that Clibborn should pretend that cars don’t exist.

  • Gidge

    Whoa, Mr. Baker. Nobody is saying that Clibborn should pretend that cars don’t exist.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I would not confuse her with Mike and Mike.

    This past week we had the formation of a makeshift Patk and Ride.

    We appear to have one thing or the other. We are serving cars, or we are putting down rail that could only see meaningful utilization in the near term by some people using it the only way the practicly can, by driving.

    We did know we were building the rail, but for some strange reason the other density stuff did not sprout.

    Not only do communies need to recognize transitions from sunk costs, but it needs to be recognized that individuals have sunk costs in old car infrastructure.

    This will take time, and better coordinated/timed planning.
    I see mass transit as replacing, not supplanting, existing legacy travel modes. Providing opportunity to transition, rather than assuming people just will, should be a near-term focus.

    I am buying a replacement car in two weeks, not because I really want to, but because there isn’t a meaningful alternative. These are the transitional points where people commit one way or another for an extended period of time.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    I would not confuse her with Mike and Mike.

    This past week we had the formation of a makeshift Patk and Ride.

    We appear to have one thing or the other. We are serving cars, or we are putting down rail that could only see meaningful utilization in the near term by some people using it the only way the practicly can, by driving.

    We did know we were building the rail, but for some strange reason the other density stuff did not sprout.

    Not only do communies need to recognize transitions from sunk costs, but it needs to be recognized that individuals have sunk costs in old car infrastructure.

    This will take time, and better coordinated/timed planning.
    I see mass transit as replacing, not supplanting, existing legacy travel modes. Providing opportunity to transition, rather than assuming people just will, should be a near-term focus.

    I am buying a replacement car in two weeks, not because I really want to, but because there isn’t a meaningful alternative. These are the transitional points where people commit one way or another for an extended period of time.

  • meg black

    you readily admit the actual word was “infrastructure” not “roads,” yet this post leads with the sensational, quote-like headline to freak everybody out. transit and roads are infrastructure. the larger issue however is that our state constitution’s 18th amendment mandates that state revenue from fuel taxes, license fees, etc. be used “exclusively for highway purposes.” transit is largely a county issue…as long as the 18th amendment is in place. http://www.leg.wa.gov/lawsandagencyrules/pages/constitution.aspx

  • meg black

    you readily admit the actual word was “infrastructure” not “roads,” yet this post leads with the sensational, quote-like headline to freak everybody out. transit and roads are infrastructure. the larger issue however is that our state constitution’s 18th amendment mandates that state revenue from fuel taxes, license fees, etc. be used “exclusively for highway purposes.” transit is largely a county issue…as long as the 18th amendment is in place. http://www.leg.wa.gov/lawsandagencyrules/pages/constitution.aspx

  • Bryan

    Hey meg black, curious how the fact that state revenue streams from fuel taxes etc. must go to highways as per state constitution has any bearing on other state legislative incentives for TODs… Development incentives that hope to increase the use of “county” transit, even when pursued by the state, seems like a different issue.

  • Bryan

    Hey meg black, curious how the fact that state revenue streams from fuel taxes etc. must go to highways as per state constitution has any bearing on other state legislative incentives for TODs… Development incentives that hope to increase the use of “county” transit, even when pursued by the state, seems like a different issue.

  • sarah68

    I guess I shouldn’t be continually astonished that someone who thinks so illogically gets voted into office, since so many voters think illogically.

    Mr. Baker: “I see mass transit as replacing, not supplanting, existing legacy travel modes.” Replacing and supplanting operationally mean the same thing.

  • sarah68

    I guess I shouldn’t be continually astonished that someone who thinks so illogically gets voted into office, since so many voters think illogically.

    Mr. Baker: “I see mass transit as replacing, not supplanting, existing legacy travel modes.” Replacing and supplanting operationally mean the same thing.

  • http://www.rosshunter.com/ Ross Hunter

    I wasn’t super fond of last year’s bill, but not because I don’t think we don’t need more density around stations. We do around most stations, but not all. To use Rep Eddy’s example, how many housing units can you put around the South Bellevue park and ride (it’s a swamp)? We get huge density when we build the rail line through the Bel-Red corridor between downtown Bellevue and Redmond. Almost a new city!

    We should do a careful dance around the balance of providing incentives to cities that zone this way (if they zone for more density we give them more transit) and the other way (give more money and other goodies to cities that zone and permit density around existing stations.)

    We have many, many streams of money that can be put into play here, and I think Judy is willing to look at how we play all of them out. I hope to spend a lot of the interim between legislative sessions this year thrashing out a plan that can pass in 2011. The cities will kill a plan that is totally prescriptive. They did last year and can do it again. We can make transit-oriented development work.

    I can’t speak for Reps. Eddy and Clibborn, but I’m willing to work on this with all the people at the table. It will be difficult to do anything thoughtful in a short session with a huge budget problem, so I would not expect huge progress this year, but you should squeeze us to make significant progresss during the interim and next session.

    Rep. Ross Hunter

  • http://www.rosshunter.com Ross Hunter

    I wasn’t super fond of last year’s bill, but not because I don’t think we don’t need more density around stations. We do around most stations, but not all. To use Rep Eddy’s example, how many housing units can you put around the South Bellevue park and ride (it’s a swamp)? We get huge density when we build the rail line through the Bel-Red corridor between downtown Bellevue and Redmond. Almost a new city!

    We should do a careful dance around the balance of providing incentives to cities that zone this way (if they zone for more density we give them more transit) and the other way (give more money and other goodies to cities that zone and permit density around existing stations.)

    We have many, many streams of money that can be put into play here, and I think Judy is willing to look at how we play all of them out. I hope to spend a lot of the interim between legislative sessions this year thrashing out a plan that can pass in 2011. The cities will kill a plan that is totally prescriptive. They did last year and can do it again. We can make transit-oriented development work.

    I can’t speak for Reps. Eddy and Clibborn, but I’m willing to work on this with all the people at the table. It will be difficult to do anything thoughtful in a short session with a huge budget problem, so I would not expect huge progress this year, but you should squeeze us to make significant progresss during the interim and next session.

    Rep. Ross Hunter

  • Perfect Voter

    The take on Rep. Clibborn is that she’s at root a conservative, but she had to file as a Democrat to get elected in her now-Democratic district. Twenty years ago, she would’ve been an ardent Republican when her district was reliably GOP. So we shouldn’t be surprised to find her off the rails when it comes to urbanist issues like these being discussed.

  • Perfect Voter

    The take on Rep. Clibborn is that she’s at root a conservative, but she had to file as a Democrat to get elected in her now-Democratic district. Twenty years ago, she would’ve been an ardent Republican when her district was reliably GOP. So we shouldn’t be surprised to find her off the rails when it comes to urbanist issues like these being discussed.

  • blogreader

    Deb,
    Copy and paste this into your browser and go to page 12.

    http://www.aiaseattle.org/sites/default/files/Forum%20Fall%2009.pdf

    Helpful citizen.

  • blogreader

    Deb,
    Copy and paste this into your browser and go to page 12.

    http://www.aiaseattle.org/sites/default/files/Forum%20Fall%2009.pdf

    Helpful citizen.

  • question

    is it the plan to eliminate cars? really?
    what is your model city where they have done that?
    Because they haven’t done it in Paris, NY, Copenhagen or Amsterdam.
    The cities that have successful choices and “Access” ahve not eliminated cars but have tons of cars plus tons of rail and buses and trams, and bikeways, etc. They also have tons more density btw which is the real key here, our 80% single famliy zoning really doesn’t support access or density or cityness at all.

    PS: if I get an electric car, will the Car Commisars give me permission to drive it around after we get everyone out of cars?

  • question

    is it the plan to eliminate cars? really?
    what is your model city where they have done that?
    Because they haven’t done it in Paris, NY, Copenhagen or Amsterdam.
    The cities that have successful choices and “Access” ahve not eliminated cars but have tons of cars plus tons of rail and buses and trams, and bikeways, etc. They also have tons more density btw which is the real key here, our 80% single famliy zoning really doesn’t support access or density or cityness at all.

    PS: if I get an electric car, will the Car Commisars give me permission to drive it around after we get everyone out of cars?

  • Geoff A.

    If all we fund are roads then all we encourage is sprall and more government wasted spending. If we are able to ecourage density around alternate modes of transportation, then the eventual result would be the less need for funding more roads. We need to see transportation spending as part of a bigger picture with a longer range outlook.

  • Geoff A.

    If all we fund are roads then all we encourage is sprall and more government wasted spending. If we are able to ecourage density around alternate modes of transportation, then the eventual result would be the less need for funding more roads. We need to see transportation spending as part of a bigger picture with a longer range outlook.

  • Deb Eddy

    Thanks for the link. I read the interview; yes, it’s a contextual problem. All of that urban density, mixed use at the north end of Mercer Island was conceptualized and planned for during Judy Clibborn’s time on the city council there. She does know whereof she speaks, and it’s disappointing to me, frankly, that there is so much energy directed at painting her as some kind of closet opponent. State and local roles are so intertwined, so nuanced; implementation of the vision has proven tougher than any of us hoped, but then … we’re human. :-)

  • Deb Eddy

    Thanks for the link. I read the interview; yes, it’s a contextual problem. All of that urban density, mixed use at the north end of Mercer Island was conceptualized and planned for during Judy Clibborn’s time on the city council there. She does know whereof she speaks, and it’s disappointing to me, frankly, that there is so much energy directed at painting her as some kind of closet opponent. State and local roles are so intertwined, so nuanced; implementation of the vision has proven tougher than any of us hoped, but then … we’re human. :-)

  • ratcityreprobate

    In the meantime, Clibborn as usual motored down to Olympia for the Legislative session on her yacht. Doubtless, staff drove her auto down to meet her at the dock.

    (I don’t know if she did this year, but that is her usual modus operandi.)

  • ratcityreprobate

    In the meantime, Clibborn as usual motored down to Olympia for the Legislative session on her yacht. Doubtless, staff drove her auto down to meet her at the dock.

    (I don’t know if she did this year, but that is her usual modus operandi.)

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Sarah68

    “Replacing and supplanting operationally mean the same thing.”

    operationally, but not contexturally, and not technically

    http://i.word.com/idictionary/Supplanting
    1 : to supersede (another) especially by force or treachery

    Ross Hunter just spent a couple hours with supplanting, and nonsupplanting, talk. I hope that went well, otherwise, we’re able to build a park, but not maintain it.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    Sarah68

    “Replacing and supplanting operationally mean the same thing.”

    operationally, but not contexturally, and not technically

    http://i.word.com/idictionary/Supplanting
    1 : to supersede (another) especially by force or treachery

    Ross Hunter just spent a couple hours with supplanting, and nonsupplanting, talk. I hope that went well, otherwise, we’re able to build a park, but not maintain it.

  • Marge

    Let’s unpack this. A mountain has just been made out of a mole hill.

  • Marge

    Let’s unpack this. A mountain has just been made out of a mole hill.

  • ivan

    @ alex:

    I most certainly do not need you to lecture me on what constitutes a “workable city.” I spent the first 18 years of my life in inner city Philadelphia PA, where grocery stores and hardware stores, saloons, and even lumberyards and breweries were within walking distance, and where we went everywhere by bus and subway, and where single-family dwellings were row houses, and where people lived packed like damn sardines.
    -
    Let me tell you, it sucked then and it sucks now. I didn’t know of anyone in my neighborhood, which was mostly black, Irish, and Italian, who didn’t want to get the hell out of there and go where there was some space around them, and not so many damn people, and little or no means of escape. If Ross Hunter is reading this, he knows what I’m talking about.
    -
    The difference for Seattle is that the mass transit spine is not in place. That means RAIL. Until it is, I oppose any and all of this “complete streets” and “transit oriented development” bullshit that urban cultists like you are trying to shove up our asses. I support every single component of mass transit infrastructure — more light rail, more buses, passenger-only ferries — that we can get, and I am ready and willing to be taxed for it. If it meets my needs, I will damn sure use it.
    -
    But this has to come FIRST. Quit putting the cart before the horse, because we’re not fooled. People’s time is worth money, and if their mobility is more important to them than your anti-car political agenda, they will act on that and will vote on it.
    -
    People will decide for themselves what is “sustainable” and what they will do to “sustain” it. Judy Clibborn and Deb Eddy, bless their hearts, understand this, and you most certainly do not.

  • ivan

    @ alex:

    I most certainly do not need you to lecture me on what constitutes a “workable city.” I spent the first 18 years of my life in inner city Philadelphia PA, where grocery stores and hardware stores, saloons, and even lumberyards and breweries were within walking distance, and where we went everywhere by bus and subway, and where single-family dwellings were row houses, and where people lived packed like damn sardines.
    -
    Let me tell you, it sucked then and it sucks now. I didn’t know of anyone in my neighborhood, which was mostly black, Irish, and Italian, who didn’t want to get the hell out of there and go where there was some space around them, and not so many damn people, and little or no means of escape. If Ross Hunter is reading this, he knows what I’m talking about.
    -
    The difference for Seattle is that the mass transit spine is not in place. That means RAIL. Until it is, I oppose any and all of this “complete streets” and “transit oriented development” bullshit that urban cultists like you are trying to shove up our asses. I support every single component of mass transit infrastructure — more light rail, more buses, passenger-only ferries — that we can get, and I am ready and willing to be taxed for it. If it meets my needs, I will damn sure use it.
    -
    But this has to come FIRST. Quit putting the cart before the horse, because we’re not fooled. People’s time is worth money, and if their mobility is more important to them than your anti-car political agenda, they will act on that and will vote on it.
    -
    People will decide for themselves what is “sustainable” and what they will do to “sustain” it. Judy Clibborn and Deb Eddy, bless their hearts, understand this, and you most certainly do not.

  • Deb Eddy

    Ivan, thank you. That post, and others like it, makes the work — and the criticism — worth it. I know what we are trying to create, an urbanism that is real but forgiving, difficult as it is and full of incongruencies … a vision that is realized maybe 20 years out. And the fact that you see the effort is gratifying. Makes up for the brickbats. :-)

  • Deb Eddy

    Ivan, thank you. That post, and others like it, makes the work — and the criticism — worth it. I know what we are trying to create, an urbanism that is real but forgiving, difficult as it is and full of incongruencies … a vision that is realized maybe 20 years out. And the fact that you see the effort is gratifying. Makes up for the brickbats. :-)

  • http://www.worldchanging.com/ Alex Steffen

    As long as our state defines transportation as cars, and the point of cities as mobility, instead of quality of life and access, then we'll continue to make disastrous choices our children will have cause to regret.