Timothy Egan Gets It Wrong

Hey, I’m not saying it’s fair that this is Huckabee’s Horton. Hell, it wasn’t fair to Dukakis, either when Horton was his Horton.

But it’s pretty damn clear that Huckabee isn’t a) manning up and taking some personal responsibility for his act as executive (I can’t recall if Mike D did or not) and b) it doesn’t matter whether it’s fair, this destroys him with voters.

Hey, I’m not saying it’s fair that this is Huckabee’s Horton. Hell, it wasn’t fair to Dukakis, either when Horton was his Horton.

But it’s pretty damn clear that Huckabee isn’t a) manning up and taking some personal responsibility for his act as executive (I can’t recall if Mike D did or not) and b) it doesn’t matter whether it’s fair, this destroys him with voters.

Huckabee made other questionable calls as well:

For some reason link did not post: http://salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2009/11/30/mike_huckabee/index.html

Huckabee made other questionable calls as well:

For some reason link did not post: http://salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2009/11/30/mike_huckabee/index.html

@3: Thanks for the link to the Conason article. Seems pretty clear that Huckabee only released this guy because he was a “Christian”… or at least played one on TV.

@3: Thanks for the link to the Conason article. Seems pretty clear that Huckabee only released this guy because he was a “Christian”… or at least played one on TV.

Josh:

Nobody died and made you the arbiter of hypocrisy. Get over yourself, if that’s possible.

Josh:

Nobody died and made you the arbiter of hypocrisy. Get over yourself, if that’s possible.

I don’t think the guy was even called “Willie” before Atwater laid that monicker on him to make him sound more black. I will find a citation for this. Maybe I read it in the Stephanopoulos bio, somewhere like that, I think. I have always thought we should put the name in quotes: “Willie” Horton.

I don’t think the guy was even called “Willie” before Atwater laid that monicker on him to make him sound more black. I will find a citation for this. Maybe I read it in the Stephanopoulos bio, somewhere like that, I think. I have always thought we should put the name in quotes: “Willie” Horton.

The Democrats won’t even get a chance to go after Huckabee on this issue. Whoever else is in the GOP primary will wipe him out with it.

The Democrats won’t even get a chance to go after Huckabee on this issue. Whoever else is in the GOP primary will wipe him out with it.

It’s relevant when it’s part of a pattern of Huckabee pardoning/commuting people only because they’re “devout Christians” regardless of whether they actually deserve it.

This is the guy who pardonned a rapist merely to stick it to Bill Clinton because a cousin of his was one of the victims.

It’s relevant when it’s part of a pattern of Huckabee pardoning/commuting people only because they’re “devout Christians” regardless of whether they actually deserve it.

This is the guy who pardonned a rapist merely to stick it to Bill Clinton because a cousin of his was one of the victims.

Thanks, Josh, for standing out as a beacon of clarity amidst a sea of confusion. It is shameful to take such a shocking and saddening event and use it to score political points. And doing so undermines progressive values on criminal justice issues in the long run. As for Mr. Egan of the New York Times, I am furious with what he wrote and that he is more concerned about the partisan tit-for-tats than he is of the serious matters about which he writes.

I’m glad you set the record straight on the Huckabee thing. It’s disheartening to see the hypocrisy of liberals who call for punitive lenience turning and roasting Huckabee for doing what they believe the political system should do: Granting forgiveness for criminals who appear to have reformed.

I’m not a fan of Huckabee and his latent hypocrisies. But anyone going out of their way to roast Huckabee for doing something they’ve advocated for doing ought to be ashamed of themselves for becoming what they hate.

I’m glad you set the record straight on the Huckabee thing. It’s disheartening to see the hypocrisy of liberals who call for punitive lenience turning and roasting Huckabee for doing what they believe the political system should do: Granting forgiveness for criminals who appear to have reformed.

I’m not a fan of Huckabee and his latent hypocrisies. But anyone going out of their way to roast Huckabee for doing something they’ve advocated for doing ought to be ashamed of themselves for becoming what they hate.

Get over yourself, Gomez.

Get over yourself, Gomez.

I am a liberal. Huckabee’s decision was not in sync with my values – not in the least.

I have no problem with Tim Egan’s column on Huckabee’s role in the life of the guy suspected in senseless shooting to death four police officers on Sunday. Not one. I suspect the facts will hurt Huckabee most with his conservative base – watch Romney and Palin.

I see no hypocrisy. Just facts. I had forgotten about Willie Horton and have zero feelings about that ancient memory.

Huckabee ought to be held to account. It looks as though he will be.

Huckabee has accepted some responsibility even as he has faulted the criminal justice systems in Washington and Arkansas.

We ought to be asking whether our gun laws work. The suspect clearly should have been barred from having handguns. How is it that he had some? Given his track record of crime?

We need to know how this guy got his guns and whether laws were broken in getting them. Did he buy them at an unregulated gun show? At a store? Were there background checks? If no laws were violated, then we need better laws to protect people from gun violence.

I am a liberal. Huckabee’s decision was not in sync with my values – not in the least.

I have no problem with Tim Egan’s column on Huckabee’s role in the life of the guy suspected in senseless shooting to death four police officers on Sunday. Not one. I suspect the facts will hurt Huckabee most with his conservative base – watch Romney and Palin.

I see no hypocrisy. Just facts. I had forgotten about Willie Horton and have zero feelings about that ancient memory.

Huckabee ought to be held to account. It looks as though he will be.

Huckabee has accepted some responsibility even as he has faulted the criminal justice systems in Washington and Arkansas.

We ought to be asking whether our gun laws work. The suspect clearly should have been barred from having handguns. How is it that he had some? Given his track record of crime?

We need to know how this guy got his guns and whether laws were broken in getting them. Did he buy them at an unregulated gun show? At a store? Were there background checks? If no laws were violated, then we need better laws to protect people from gun violence.

One problem, seattletimes.com was infected with malware for most of the day yesterday. if you visited it you probably have a nasty trojan on your machine.

One problem, seattletimes.com was infected with malware for most of the day yesterday. if you visited it you probably have a nasty trojan on your machine.

Two questions are conspicuously missing in all the chatter about both the Seattle and Lakewood shootings: Were the weapons legally obtained? If so, why is this not being discussed?

The second question/issue is a bit more complex. Why is the Clemmons case being framed solely as a criminal justice issue? Why is no one discussing the systemic failure to deal with mental health issues? Based on initial evidence, it appears that Clemmons was a truly disturbed person. In contemporary political dialogue, raising such a point leads to accusations of being “soft on crime.”

The reality, however, is that the U.S. has the most punitive criminal justice system in the world (we’re 5% of the population, but we have 25% of the incarcerated population). Yet we remain the singularly most violent, victimized nation amongst the industrialized world.

In the interest of public safety, public health, and collective welfare, we need to come up with better solutions.

Two questions are conspicuously missing in all the chatter about both the Seattle and Lakewood shootings: Were the weapons legally obtained? If so, why is this not being discussed?

The second question/issue is a bit more complex. Why is the Clemmons case being framed solely as a criminal justice issue? Why is no one discussing the systemic failure to deal with mental health issues? Based on initial evidence, it appears that Clemmons was a truly disturbed person. In contemporary political dialogue, raising such a point leads to accusations of being “soft on crime.”

The reality, however, is that the U.S. has the most punitive criminal justice system in the world (we’re 5% of the population, but we have 25% of the incarcerated population). Yet we remain the singularly most violent, victimized nation amongst the industrialized world.

In the interest of public safety, public health, and collective welfare, we need to come up with better solutions.

11. What is a Jason Mitchell and why should I care what he thinks I should or shouldn’t get over?

11. What is a Jason Mitchell and why should I care what he thinks I should or shouldn’t get over?

But seriously, from now on, arguments in favor of forgiveness in criminal punishment debates, whether involving parole, the death penalty or simple early release for seemingly reformed criminals, will now have to answer to the symbolic argument of a very telling four word refrain: “Mike Huckabee. Maurice Clemmons.”

But seriously, from now on, arguments in favor of forgiveness in criminal punishment debates, whether involving parole, the death penalty or simple early release for seemingly reformed criminals, will now have to answer to the symbolic argument of a very telling four word refrain: “Mike Huckabee. Maurice Clemmons.”

@ 16

The death penalty has nothing to do with this at all. Clemmons wasn’t eligible for it at all. Life without parole is possible and cost less than killing people. So anyone mindless enough to use this tragedy as a reason to support the death penalty is just peddling in illogical emotional horse manure.

Rather than having the same arguments all over again, because that’s what your setting up, perhaps we should actually look at what works and what doesn’t rather than relying on emotional alchemy to set up or reform criminal justice systems.

@ 16

The death penalty has nothing to do with this at all. Clemmons wasn’t eligible for it at all. Life without parole is possible and cost less than killing people. So anyone mindless enough to use this tragedy as a reason to support the death penalty is just peddling in illogical emotional horse manure.

Rather than having the same arguments all over again, because that’s what your setting up, perhaps we should actually look at what works and what doesn’t rather than relying on emotional alchemy to set up or reform criminal justice systems.

17. The death penalty is one of many examples of criminal punishment that comes up in these debates. You’re singling it out more than I am.

And to be fair, these arguments are going to arise now and later whether you or I want them to or not. I figured it’s just reasonable to establish some truth in a case where advocated punitive leniency backfired badly.

The big problem is that Huckabee is being blasted based on faulty hindsight and results-based analysis. If we’re going to address your stated question, we have to focus not on Huckabee but on the many prosecutors and legal officials who let Clemmons walk once he relapsed into violent crime and showed he did not deserve leniency. Blasting Huckabee for letting Clemmons go after 11 years of good behavior, and before he committed the lion’s share of his violent crimes, is stupid.

17. The death penalty is one of many examples of criminal punishment that comes up in these debates. You’re singling it out more than I am.

And to be fair, these arguments are going to arise now and later whether you or I want them to or not. I figured it’s just reasonable to establish some truth in a case where advocated punitive leniency backfired badly.

The big problem is that Huckabee is being blasted based on faulty hindsight and results-based analysis. If we’re going to address your stated question, we have to focus not on Huckabee but on the many prosecutors and legal officials who let Clemmons walk once he relapsed into violent crime and showed he did not deserve leniency. Blasting Huckabee for letting Clemmons go after 11 years of good behavior, and before he committed the lion’s share of his violent crimes, is stupid.

@14: The issue of mental health treatment being key in order to prevent some crimes is important. However, the problem is not only with the lack of adequate mental health treatment; it’s also with the lack of those close to the person being able or willing to acknowledge that the person needs treatment. But more importantly, the person has to be willing to accept treatment, and that gets into the civil rights arena. We here in Washington State have an exceptionally tough commitment law; before Clemmons, for instance, could be brought in for an evaluation, he would have to be in the actual act of endangering someone else’s life or his own. That’s too late. But if we loosen the law, we get into the civil rights issue of letting someone be a little crazy if they’re not hurting themselves or someone else. We all know people who are in that state; do we want them dragged in to be on a 72-hour evaluation hold? This is a difficult issue completely separate from the previous-crimes issue. Both led to what happened over the last few days.

@14: The issue of mental health treatment being key in order to prevent some crimes is important. However, the problem is not only with the lack of adequate mental health treatment; it’s also with the lack of those close to the person being able or willing to acknowledge that the person needs treatment. But more importantly, the person has to be willing to accept treatment, and that gets into the civil rights arena. We here in Washington State have an exceptionally tough commitment law; before Clemmons, for instance, could be brought in for an evaluation, he would have to be in the actual act of endangering someone else’s life or his own. That’s too late. But if we loosen the law, we get into the civil rights issue of letting someone be a little crazy if they’re not hurting themselves or someone else. We all know people who are in that state; do we want them dragged in to be on a 72-hour evaluation hold? This is a difficult issue completely separate from the previous-crimes issue. Both led to what happened over the last few days.

I agree with Josh and Gomez. It’s fair to hold Huckabee accountable for the decision, but it’s not fair to criticize him for doing something you would’ve done yourself.

The reason governors don’t issue more pardons or commutations (or delay doing so until they are leaving elected office permanently) is because they are afraid of the political fallout from exactly this type of scenario. If you want governors to start using the clemency powers at their disposal to try to give people second chances, then jumping all over a guy who did just that is short-sighted and counter productive.

And, @8, I don’t think Huckabee pardoned anyone just b/c they proclaimed themselves to be a devout Christian. (If you have evidence of that, please share it.) I do think Huckabee let his personal belief in redemption shape his policy on clemency — the amount of pardons/commutations he issued is staggering, especially for a southern GOP governor with presidential aspirations — but that’s actually something I respect him for. It’s unusual to see a self-proclaimed Christian-conservative who is willing to champion Christ’s less popular views. It doesn’t make Huckabee’s positions right, but it demonstrates a bit of principled backbone that I admire.

I agree with Josh and Gomez. It’s fair to hold Huckabee accountable for the decision, but it’s not fair to criticize him for doing something you would’ve done yourself.

The reason governors don’t issue more pardons or commutations (or delay doing so until they are leaving elected office permanently) is because they are afraid of the political fallout from exactly this type of scenario. If you want governors to start using the clemency powers at their disposal to try to give people second chances, then jumping all over a guy who did just that is short-sighted and counter productive.

And, @8, I don’t think Huckabee pardoned anyone just b/c they proclaimed themselves to be a devout Christian. (If you have evidence of that, please share it.) I do think Huckabee let his personal belief in redemption shape his policy on clemency — the amount of pardons/commutations he issued is staggering, especially for a southern GOP governor with presidential aspirations — but that’s actually something I respect him for. It’s unusual to see a self-proclaimed Christian-conservative who is willing to champion Christ’s less popular views. It doesn’t make Huckabee’s positions right, but it demonstrates a bit of principled backbone that I admire.

The b–l s–t is sure flowing today. If all you had to do was profess your belief in Jesus Christ, Arkansas could turn its prisons into universities. It’s expensive to house prisoners, especially those who are likely to head back home and out of state when you release them. The terms of Clemmons’ release should have led to his return to Arkansas — but they didn’t want to deal with him anymore. I expect every governor is the state is figuring out ways to release prisoners who are likely to head for another state. It makes fiscal sense. The morality of it is another quesiotn.

The b–l s–t is sure flowing today. If all you had to do was profess your belief in Jesus Christ, Arkansas could turn its prisons into universities. It’s expensive to house prisoners, especially those who are likely to head back home and out of state when you release them. The terms of Clemmons’ release should have led to his return to Arkansas — but they didn’t want to deal with him anymore. I expect every governor is the state is figuring out ways to release prisoners who are likely to head for another state. It makes fiscal sense. The morality of it is another quesiotn.

Sounds like Josh is angling for a gig at the Seattle Times.

Sounds like Josh is angling for a gig at the Seattle Times.

It doesn’t really matter what us liberals think about Huckabee. His fellow Republicans, led by Michelle Malkin, are going to make sure he is toooooaasst.

It doesn’t really matter what us liberals think about Huckabee. His fellow Republicans, led by Michelle Malkin, are going to make sure he is toooooaasst.

@23,

If that’s the case, then Republicans are not hypocrites. They’d be voting consistently.

@23,

If that’s the case, then Republicans are not hypocrites. They’d be voting consistently.

Way late to the party on this one, hopefully you read this, Josh.

It’s important to point out that Michael Dukakis did NOT sign off on the furlough program that allowed a convicted rapist and murderer to leave prison for the weekend with tragic results.

The program was inherited by Dukakis from his Republican predecessor, Gov. Francis Sargent. Dukakis was not involved in the Horton case at all. Zip, nada. No pardons, no parole, no commutations, no decision to furlough prisoners.

It was Lee Atwater who used the incident to attack Dukakis with racist symbolism, appealing to white fears of violent black people paroled by bleeding heart liburls with the now infamous “Willie Horton ads”. It was effective, because it seems like it sure fooled you into thinking Dukakis was responsible.

But I digress. And take exception to your cries of “hypocrisy” in taking Huckabee to task.

Unlike Dukakis, Huckabee personally intervened and commuted the sentences of TWO violent criminals who left the state and later killed FIVE people – Wayne Dumond, a violent rapist who raped and killed a mother of three in Missouri, and of course Clemmons, who killed four police officers sitting in a coffee shop.

Commutations and pardons have their legitimate place, and I hope politicians will continue to consider them, especially in cases where the accused was a victim of a miscarriage of justice. But it’s quite another matter to excuse the poor judgment of a sitting governor who was suckered in releasing criminals, especially when prosecutors and parole board members expressed serious concerns about letting the people in question back on the street.

I appreciate your trying to be open-minded about Huckabee, but the reality is that he effed up big time. Not once, but twice (that we know of).

And yes, I think Huckabee’s decisions that resulted in the release of violent criminals, should be the subject of public debate, and yeah, criticism.

That is all.

Way late to the party on this one, hopefully you read this, Josh.

It’s important to point out that Michael Dukakis did NOT sign off on the furlough program that allowed a convicted rapist and murderer to leave prison for the weekend with tragic results.

The program was inherited by Dukakis from his Republican predecessor, Gov. Francis Sargent. Dukakis was not involved in the Horton case at all. Zip, nada. No pardons, no parole, no commutations, no decision to furlough prisoners.

It was Lee Atwater who used the incident to attack Dukakis with racist symbolism, appealing to white fears of violent black people paroled by bleeding heart liburls with the now infamous “Willie Horton ads”. It was effective, because it seems like it sure fooled you into thinking Dukakis was responsible.

But I digress. And take exception to your cries of “hypocrisy” in taking Huckabee to task.

Unlike Dukakis, Huckabee personally intervened and commuted the sentences of TWO violent criminals who left the state and later killed FIVE people – Wayne Dumond, a violent rapist who raped and killed a mother of three in Missouri, and of course Clemmons, who killed four police officers sitting in a coffee shop.

Commutations and pardons have their legitimate place, and I hope politicians will continue to consider them, especially in cases where the accused was a victim of a miscarriage of justice. But it’s quite another matter to excuse the poor judgment of a sitting governor who was suckered in releasing criminals, especially when prosecutors and parole board members expressed serious concerns about letting the people in question back on the street.

I appreciate your trying to be open-minded about Huckabee, but the reality is that he effed up big time. Not once, but twice (that we know of).

And yes, I think Huckabee’s decisions that resulted in the release of violent criminals, should be the subject of public debate, and yeah, criticism.

That is all.

There is at least one instance in which Huckabee failed to pardon some people, when he clearly should have— the “West Memphis Three.” In this case, three Arkansas teenagers were convicted of murder entirely on the basis of their interest in the occult (there was no credible evidence whatsoever linking them to the murders), railroaded by police who were obsessed with the idea of satanists lurking in the woods. At this point, no one (including the victims’ parents) believes they were guilty… but somehow they didn’t make Huckabee’s list of 1000+ pardons.

So… convicts who were clearly guilty, but found Jesus in prison, get pardoned, while innocent pagans remain behind bars. I’m sympathetic to Huckabee’s belief in redemption and giving people a second chance. I’m not at all sympathetic to his double-standard for Christians vs. non-Christians, and the implicit establishment of a state religion.

There is at least one instance in which Huckabee failed to pardon some people, when he clearly should have— the “West Memphis Three.” In this case, three Arkansas teenagers were convicted of murder entirely on the basis of their interest in the occult (there was no credible evidence whatsoever linking them to the murders), railroaded by police who were obsessed with the idea of satanists lurking in the woods. At this point, no one (including the victims’ parents) believes they were guilty… but somehow they didn’t make Huckabee’s list of 1000+ pardons.

So… convicts who were clearly guilty, but found Jesus in prison, get pardoned, while innocent pagans remain behind bars. I’m sympathetic to Huckabee’s belief in redemption and giving people a second chance. I’m not at all sympathetic to his double-standard for Christians vs. non-Christians, and the implicit establishment of a state religion.

I’ve love to see a 50 state breakdown of pardons by all governors and how those criminals ended up, what percentage committed crimes again and what percentage never did. I’m not sure a cherry picked sample of 2 or 3 in two states is a legitimate base to go drawing any firm conclusions about anyone’s tendencies.

I’ve love to see a 50 state breakdown of pardons by all governors and how those criminals ended up, what percentage committed crimes again and what percentage never did. I’m not sure a cherry picked sample of 2 or 3 in two states is a legitimate base to go drawing any firm conclusions about anyone’s tendencies.

28. Also, Mr. Dumond’s sentence was initially commuted by Bill Clinton’s Lieutenant Governor Jim Guy Tucker. Huckabee did not step in until that process was well underway. Where’s the blame for the Democrat’s 2nd in commmand?

Damn it, that was in response to 25.

28. Also, Mr. Dumond’s sentence was initially commuted by Bill Clinton’s Lieutenant Governor Jim Guy Tucker. Huckabee did not step in until that process was well underway. Where’s the blame for the Democrat’s 2nd in commmand?

Damn it, that was in response to 25.

http://tinyurl.com/no5knk

From the article “List of 2008 homicides in Seattle” from the Seattle PI

selected from the list of the 28 Seattle homicides in 2008….

Allen Joplin, Jan. 4 — black killed by black

De’Che Morrison, Jan. 10 — black killed by black

Maurice “Moe” Allen Jr., Jan. 26 — black killed by black

Degene Barecha, Jan. 30 — black killed by black

Perry Henderson, Feb. 6 — black killed by black

Stephan Dwaine Stewart, April 2 — black killed by black

Eldora Earlycutt, July 4 — black killed by black

James Paroline, July 10 — white killed by black

Troy Peters, July 22 — black killed by black

Pierre Lapoint, Aug. 5 — black killed by black

Jane Kariuki, Oct. 16 — woman of unknown race killed by black man named Christel D. Murphy

Quincy S. Coleman, Oct. 31 — black killed by black

Edward McMichael, the “Tuba Man”, Nov. 3 — white killed by multiple blacks

Nathaniel Lee Thomas, Nov. 23 — black killed by black

So by my count blacks (8% of Seattle) were the killers in at least half (that’s at least 50%) of the murders in the Seattle area in 2008. At least five of the other murderers were latinos.

The numbers are actually worse for 2009 and approach the 85% mark.

Of the 27 officers that were shot and killed by criminals in the last 20 years in King and Pierce county, 21 of them were shot by black men, even though black men make up less than 6% of the population.

http://tinyurl.com/no5knk

From the article “List of 2008 homicides in Seattle” from the Seattle PI

selected from the list of the 28 Seattle homicides in 2008….

Allen Joplin, Jan. 4 — black killed by black

De’Che Morrison, Jan. 10 — black killed by black

Maurice “Moe” Allen Jr., Jan. 26 — black killed by black

Degene Barecha, Jan. 30 — black killed by black

Perry Henderson, Feb. 6 — black killed by black

Stephan Dwaine Stewart, April 2 — black killed by black

Eldora Earlycutt, July 4 — black killed by black

James Paroline, July 10 — white killed by black

Troy Peters, July 22 — black killed by black

Pierre Lapoint, Aug. 5 — black killed by black

Jane Kariuki, Oct. 16 — woman of unknown race killed by black man named Christel D. Murphy

Quincy S. Coleman, Oct. 31 — black killed by black

Edward McMichael, the “Tuba Man”, Nov. 3 — white killed by multiple blacks

Nathaniel Lee Thomas, Nov. 23 — black killed by black

So by my count blacks (8% of Seattle) were the killers in at least half (that’s at least 50%) of the murders in the Seattle area in 2008. At least five of the other murderers were latinos.

The numbers are actually worse for 2009 and approach the 85% mark.

Of the 27 officers that were shot and killed by criminals in the last 20 years in King and Pierce county, 21 of them were shot by black men, even though black men make up less than 6% of the population.

Thanks, Josh, for standing out as a beacon of clarity amidst a sea of confusion. It is shameful to take such a shocking and saddening event and use it to score political points. And doing so undermines progressive values on criminal justice issues in the long run. As for Mr. Egan of the New York Times, I am furious with what he wrote and that he is more concerned about the partisan tit-for-tats than he is of the serious matters about which he writes.