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Bringing you cola for the people, PubliCola is named after Publius Valerius PubliCola, the alias for the authors of the Federalist Papers—the original bloggers.

The first online-only news site in state history to get media credentials to cover the state capitol and Seattle city hall, PubliCola has been called a “must-read” by the Seattle Post Intelligencer and a hot “New Media Mover and Shaker” by Seattle Magazine—which also cited our own Erica C. Barnett as the city's No. 1 news nerd.

What's Missing From Today's Front-Page McGinn Story

side_crank

Josh is right—I do have issues with Mike Lindblom’s story this morning. Wonky issues! Although Lindblom (a thorough, solid reporter) did get “both sides” of the debate, I’m disappointed that he didn’t challenge some of the more spurious claims made by surface/transit opponents—the most ridiculous of which is the claim that their plan would dump 100,000 cars on the waterfront every day.

Lindblom quotes Mark Hallenbeck of the Washington State Transportation Center at UW: “I have no conception of any other place that would take out a road with 100,000 cars a day, with no alternative to that.”

But that’s not what surface/transit proponents are proposing. In fact, the surface/transit option would include alternatives. Don’t want to cram onto the waterfront boulevard? You can walk, bike on new bike lanes, take public transit on new dedicated bus lanes, drive on improved and reconnected surface streets, or drive on an expanded I-5. To suggest that the surface/transit option offers “no alternative” is false, and Lindblom should have at least noted that.

A larger problem with Hallenbeck’s claim (and a subsequent assertion by Lindblom that “Seattle has only the viaduct and I-5 to carry cars, buses and trucks through its downtown”), says original surface/transit supporter Cary Moon, is that it relies on the assumption that “mobility” means “moving cars,” not “moving people and goods.”

surfaceaquarium

“Hallenbeck’s statements are disingenuous. He’s using a metric that only counts cars on highways,” Moon says. “Using his metric, Paris, London, and D.C. wouldn’t work at all and we’d all be trying to be more like Detroit, which has plenty of car capacity.”

The idea that mobility in cities should be defined as moving people and goods is not a radical one: the Washington State Department of Transportation, Gov. Christine Gregoire, Mayor Greg Nickels, former King County Executive Ron Sims, and a long list of downtown business leaders endorsed the concept after Seattle voters rejected a tunnel and a rebuilt viaduct in 2007—hardly a group of wide-eyed environmental extremists (like me). Moreover, later that year, a group of stakeholders who had spent months examining the viaduct alternatives endorsed the surface/transit option.

Lindblom’s story also oversimplifies McGinn’s view on people’s ability to shift from driving alone to other transportation modes: “McGinn says people aren’t crazy enough to sit in traffic, so most would use transit or find other routes.” But the argument for mode shift and transportation demand management isn’t that people aren’t crazy; it’s that if people are provided with alternatives to driving alone, and if driving alone carries greater costs (time stuck in traffic, rising gas prices, unreliable commute times, etc.) people will choose the cheaper/more reliable/less time-consuming option. (See, for example, this piece on the impact rising gas prices have on the amount people drive.)

That’s just common sense. Yes, it can be boiled down to “people aren’t crazy,” but the larger point is that people are adaptive. They want to minimize the awfulness of their commutes, and if taking the bus is better than driving, people will. We’ve seen this effect again and again right here in Seattle—when the viaduct was closed after the 2001 earthquake, when I-5 was partially shut down for repaving, people adapted.


  • http://twitter.com/fattailed Fat-tailed

    Traffic is exceedingly light in that artist’s rendering. If that’s not proof of the viability of the surface/transit option, I don’t know what is.

    Then again… if it’s working so well in that pic, why is that guy in the bottom left of the pedestrian esplanade standing there with his hands on his hips. Bad body language — what’s he so upset about? Is he concerned about how an option sold as the low-budget choice could end up including gold-plated options like pretty pedestrian walkways along the water?

    But if you can’t judge a plan by the associated computer graphics, what can you judge it by?

  • http://twitter.com/fattailed Fat-tailed

    Traffic is exceedingly light in that artist’s rendering. If that’s not proof of the viability of the surface/transit option, I don’t know what is.

    Then again… if it’s working so well in that pic, why is that guy in the bottom left of the pedestrian esplanade standing there with his hands on his hips. Bad body language — what’s he so upset about? Is he concerned about how an option sold as the low-budget choice could end up including gold-plated options like pretty pedestrian walkways along the water?

    But if you can’t judge a plan by the associated computer graphics, what can you judge it by?

  • Chris Stefan

    Lindblom quotes Mark Hallenbeck of the Washington State Transportation Center at UW: “I have no conception of any other place that would take out a road with 100,000 cars a day, with no alternative to that.”

    Hmm I seem to recall a freeway down in San Francisco that carried around that many vehicles which was demolished in 1991. But I guess Mr. Hallenbeck has never heard of the Embarcadero Freeway.

  • Chris Stefan

    Lindblom quotes Mark Hallenbeck of the Washington State Transportation Center at UW: “I have no conception of any other place that would take out a road with 100,000 cars a day, with no alternative to that.”

    Hmm I seem to recall a freeway down in San Francisco that carried around that many vehicles which was demolished in 1991. But I guess Mr. Hallenbeck has never heard of the Embarcadero Freeway.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    And what about the 900+ or so people that will be commuting from Tacoma to the new Russel Tower in Seattle?

    I commute Tacoma – Seattle every morning and already dread the extra cars this move alone is going to make. Add reduced capacity on the waterfront and Ugghhh! Public transit is not an option for me. Yes am adapatble but forcing me to move to Seattle so I could “walk or Bike to work” is a pipe dream.

    Sorry to say, but I am one of those “cars” that needs to get in and out of Seattle most days.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    And what about the 900+ or so people that will be commuting from Tacoma to the new Russel Tower in Seattle?

    I commute Tacoma – Seattle every morning and already dread the extra cars this move alone is going to make. Add reduced capacity on the waterfront and Ugghhh! Public transit is not an option for me. Yes am adapatble but forcing me to move to Seattle so I could “walk or Bike to work” is a pipe dream.

    Sorry to say, but I am one of those “cars” that needs to get in and out of Seattle most days.

  • ivan

    Hallenback presents statistics derived from research and ECB presents wishful thinking and religious dogma. If Erica is a “wonk,” Greg Nickels is anorexic.

    Chris Stefan @ 2:

    Again with the lies about the Embarcadero? The Embarcadero was a SPUR. The Alaskan Way Viaduct is a THROUGH HIGHWAY.

  • JoshMahar

    @3: You already have a whole host of options for transit service. You could very, very easily park at the Tacoma Dome and take any number of buses or the Sounder Commuter Rail to and from Downtown Seattle. While on the EXPRESS service you could read, get some work done on your computer, listen to the radio, or make some new friends. Far more relaxing than sitting in traffic all morning and evening.

  • JoshMahar

    @3: You already have a whole host of options for transit service. You could very, very easily park at the Tacoma Dome and take any number of buses or the Sounder Commuter Rail to and from Downtown Seattle. While on the EXPRESS service you could read, get some work done on your computer, listen to the radio, or make some new friends. Far more relaxing than sitting in traffic all morning and evening.

  • JoshMahar

    Ahh, I was so mad that I accidently submitted, but

    @3: This is exactly the mentality in which we are trying to break. We have spent millions upon millions of dollars to get people just like you out of their cars and into a clean, efficient form of public transport. Chances are that your downtown company would even pay for your transit pass since it saves them money (from the head tax) and gives them a tax break.

    But no, we need to spend $4.2 billion on a tunnel to replace the viaduct. Well guess, what, it won’t even offload in downtown so you can forget about it freeing up your commmunte!

  • Sarah

    There is ONE lane going north, and it’s not separated from the southbound lanes by any obstacle? How slow must the cars go to even partially make up for the danger of collision? And the southbound lanes are not separated from the pedestrians? That’s just crazy.

  • JoshMahar

    Ahh, I was so mad that I accidently submitted, but

    @3: This is exactly the mentality in which we are trying to break. We have spent millions upon millions of dollars to get people just like you out of their cars and into a clean, efficient form of public transport. Chances are that your downtown company would even pay for your transit pass since it saves them money (from the head tax) and gives them a tax break.

    But no, we need to spend $4.2 billion on a tunnel to replace the viaduct. Well guess, what, it won’t even offload in downtown so you can forget about it freeing up your commmunte!

  • Sarah

    There is ONE lane going north, and it’s not separated from the southbound lanes by any obstacle? How slow must the cars go to even partially make up for the danger of collision? And the southbound lanes are not separated from the pedestrians? That’s just crazy.

  • Mike

    I have taken classes with both Mark Hallenbeck and Paul Waddell. Mark is a really smart, sincere guy, but he has the perspective of the suburban, east side dad that he is. If you begin with an assumption that car travel is the defacto standard, it will continue to seem like the most important means of transportation.

    Paul Waddell’s modelling work takes into account not just transportation choices, but the housing and job markets, as well. His models are not not pie-in-the-sky dreaming; people can adapt to new circumstances.

  • Mike

    I have taken classes with both Mark Hallenbeck and Paul Waddell. Mark is a really smart, sincere guy, but he has the perspective of the suburban, east side dad that he is. If you begin with an assumption that car travel is the defacto standard, it will continue to seem like the most important means of transportation.

    Paul Waddell’s modelling work takes into account not just transportation choices, but the housing and job markets, as well. His models are not not pie-in-the-sky dreaming; people can adapt to new circumstances.

  • Mike

    Oh yeah, that rendering is horrible. (from WSDOT?) Can’t anyone make up a design that looks a little more urban?

  • Mike

    Oh yeah, that rendering is horrible. (from WSDOT?) Can’t anyone make up a design that looks a little more urban?

  • Don’t you think he looks tired

    I think there are two issues here: moving people (cars, buses, etc.) and moving freight (trucks, etc.). Freight generally wants to move through downtown without stopping. For people downtown is more generally the destination. Since the current tunnel concept has no downtown exits, it really doesn’t solve the moving people problem. Conversely I’m not certain that the surface transit solution adequately addresses the concerns of moving freight. If McGinn can answer this question, it may be pivotal in getting support from businesses and unions dependent on moving freight through Seattle.

  • Don’t you think he looks tired?

    I think there are two issues here: moving people (cars, buses, etc.) and moving freight (trucks, etc.). Freight generally wants to move through downtown without stopping. For people downtown is more generally the destination. Since the current tunnel concept has no downtown exits, it really doesn’t solve the moving people problem. Conversely I’m not certain that the surface transit solution adequately addresses the concerns of moving freight. If McGinn can answer this question, it may be pivotal in getting support from businesses and unions dependent on moving freight through Seattle.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    @ 5 & 6 -

    How nice of you to tell me what my job requires. Maybe you could sit down with my boss and explain to him why I cannot do my job because I do not have a car. Maybe the benefit to the “public” will convince him that having a non-producitve employee is worth the cost?

    After you’re done meeting with him, then sit down with my wife and talk with her about why we cannot pay our mortgage.

    Hey I’ll ride the bus or public transit (would actually prefer it) but to assume that me driving everyday is a “mindset” is just that an ASSUMPION.

    I just love it when people cannot understand, that no matter how painful it is, a few of us might actually NEED to drive a car everyday.

    I support transit, vote for it when I can, and would love to see rail service from Seattle to Olympia. Why is it so hard to understand that some people will still need to drive? Sorry if I am destroying the earth with my carbon emissions (but then again you also have no idea what I do for a living so maybe I DRIVE to work at an organization that works to save the environment?)

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    @ 5 & 6 -

    How nice of you to tell me what my job requires. Maybe you could sit down with my boss and explain to him why I cannot do my job because I do not have a car. Maybe the benefit to the “public” will convince him that having a non-producitve employee is worth the cost?

    After you’re done meeting with him, then sit down with my wife and talk with her about why we cannot pay our mortgage.

    Hey I’ll ride the bus or public transit (would actually prefer it) but to assume that me driving everyday is a “mindset” is just that an ASSUMPION.

    I just love it when people cannot understand, that no matter how painful it is, a few of us might actually NEED to drive a car everyday.

    I support transit, vote for it when I can, and would love to see rail service from Seattle to Olympia. Why is it so hard to understand that some people will still need to drive? Sorry if I am destroying the earth with my carbon emissions (but then again you also have no idea what I do for a living so maybe I DRIVE to work at an organization that works to save the environment?)

  • Good Grief

    @6: What dream world are you in? Do you really believe a Seattle employer (downtown or otherwise) would pay for this person’s pass from Tacoma ($171/month for a Sounder Pass or $108/month for a 3-Zone ST Express Bus Pass) in order to save $25/year on the Head Tax? Riiiiiight.

  • Good Grief

    @6: What dream world are you in? Do you really believe a Seattle employer (downtown or otherwise) would pay for this person’s pass from Tacoma ($171/month for a Sounder Pass or $108/month for a 3-Zone ST Express Bus Pass) in order to save $25/year on the Head Tax? Riiiiiight.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    http://blog.thenewstribune.com/politics/2009/09/15/state-officially-starts-looking-for-tunnel-digger/

    The search is on. McGinn would be better served if he worked to make sure the tunnel accomodated transit.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    http://blog.thenewstribune.com/politics/2009/09/15/state-officially-starts-looking-for-tunnel-digger/

    The search is on. McGinn would be better served if he worked to make sure the tunnel accomodated transit.

  • Glenn Fleishman

    Two missing parts in the SeaTimes and ECB’s response:

    First: The early estimates (which I don’t know are still the same) is that we lose __four years__ of access to the viaduct north-south corridor during demolition and tunnel construction. (I don’t know if we lose less during surface option, but I would suspect so.)

    So we have four years of an option in which a totally impossible situation would be our reality, and what happens then? By that argument, we should pursue the discarded options to retrofit the viaduct, because we cannot do without even a few days of that corridor being available.

    Given that we will lose the viaduct corridor for that long, will people and businesses not already suffer, adapt, and evolve? Will drivers be lining up for four years waiting to use a road that they have not had access to?

    I can’t recall who raised this issue years ago (Moon?), but it remains significant.

    Second, the minute I saw that “experts” were being quoted about the tunnel option, I was already in a funk. I can believe expert opinion on the current state of things, but projections out about 5 to 7 years from now after 4 years of closure (if that’s the period) seem rather ludicrous when they’re as specific as those provided.

    I’d like to see some track records on predictions.

    Finally, @11: Maybe @5 and @6 are over the top; the idea is to make options over than driving alone affordable, comfortable, and reasonable. If they are not, then driving is still the right option.

    By moving to a surface option, it’s going to force serious planning and transportation work at the end of which driving volume will have shifted and changed. That likely means that driving will be an easier option than before for those people who have a necessity for driving.

    (The book Traffic explains that if you build more roads where there’s traffic, the volume increases to fill the new capacity. If you create alternatives to roads, things settle out differently.)

  • Glenn Fleishman

    Two missing parts in the SeaTimes and ECB’s response:

    First: The early estimates (which I don’t know are still the same) is that we lose __four years__ of access to the viaduct north-south corridor during demolition and tunnel construction. (I don’t know if we lose less during surface option, but I would suspect so.)

    So we have four years of an option in which a totally impossible situation would be our reality, and what happens then? By that argument, we should pursue the discarded options to retrofit the viaduct, because we cannot do without even a few days of that corridor being available.

    Given that we will lose the viaduct corridor for that long, will people and businesses not already suffer, adapt, and evolve? Will drivers be lining up for four years waiting to use a road that they have not had access to?

    I can’t recall who raised this issue years ago (Moon?), but it remains significant.

    Second, the minute I saw that “experts” were being quoted about the tunnel option, I was already in a funk. I can believe expert opinion on the current state of things, but projections out about 5 to 7 years from now after 4 years of closure (if that’s the period) seem rather ludicrous when they’re as specific as those provided.

    I’d like to see some track records on predictions.

    Finally, @11: Maybe @5 and @6 are over the top; the idea is to make options over than driving alone affordable, comfortable, and reasonable. If they are not, then driving is still the right option.

    By moving to a surface option, it’s going to force serious planning and transportation work at the end of which driving volume will have shifted and changed. That likely means that driving will be an easier option than before for those people who have a necessity for driving.

    (The book Traffic explains that if you build more roads where there’s traffic, the volume increases to fill the new capacity. If you create alternatives to roads, things settle out differently.)

  • voter

    @11

    seriously, you want to spend 15 hours a week driving to work and back? Really? That’s what we should subsidize? why not move to Seattle or fed. way where the light rail will go?

    anyway the bored tunnel has no exits downtown, so you wouldn’t be driving on it anyway to get to new Russel HQ. The 900 of you over time will move to Seattle, just like today, you live in Tacoma.

    Adjust.

    It’s cheaper. For you and all of us.

  • Mikos

    I know Hallenback too and he might have an eastside suburban perspective but he’s not a Martian. He knows how to crunch the numbers when it comes to carrying capacities of roadways and he knows how to maximize carrying capacities. Your vision of Seattle may look something like Beijing in 1965 but 100,000 people just aren’t going to start riding bicycles overnight. I’m not even convinced this city knows how to create a proper roadway for bicycles (see yesterday’s publicola). You have to have a realistic plan.

  • voter

    @11

    seriously, you want to spend 15 hours a week driving to work and back? Really? That’s what we should subsidize? why not move to Seattle or fed. way where the light rail will go?

    anyway the bored tunnel has no exits downtown, so you wouldn’t be driving on it anyway to get to new Russel HQ. The 900 of you over time will move to Seattle, just like today, you live in Tacoma.

    Adjust.

    It’s cheaper. For you and all of us.

  • Mikos

    I know Hallenback too and he might have an eastside suburban perspective but he’s not a Martian. He knows how to crunch the numbers when it comes to carrying capacities of roadways and he knows how to maximize carrying capacities. Your vision of Seattle may look something like Beijing in 1965 but 100,000 people just aren’t going to start riding bicycles overnight. I’m not even convinced this city knows how to create a proper roadway for bicycles (see yesterday’s publicola). You have to have a realistic plan.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    Glenn – I get it. I just don’t get when other make suggestions like @ 15 & 5 & 6. People like that have no idea about what my personal situitation is and rather than believe that I might actually need to drive, they asume something must be wrong with me.

    And @ 15 – How nice of you to offer to pay the balance on my upside down mortgage so I CAN move. But before you offer any more “suggestions” moving north will only increase the commute my wife makes everyday. Whoops! I guess that doesn’t work.

    Also the little fact that my job REQUIRES a CAR. Unless I can drive my own personal bus everyday transit will not work for me.

    Some people will need to drive. End of story. Nothing wrong with driving. Sorry if your transit or nothing heads explode at the thought of this, but its true. All of the transit options in the world would not change my situitation (except for taking 1,000s of cars off the road and make traffic better for me)

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    Glenn – I get it. I just don’t get when other make suggestions like @ 15 & 5 & 6. People like that have no idea about what my personal situitation is and rather than believe that I might actually need to drive, they asume something must be wrong with me.

    And @ 15 – How nice of you to offer to pay the balance on my upside down mortgage so I CAN move. But before you offer any more “suggestions” moving north will only increase the commute my wife makes everyday. Whoops! I guess that doesn’t work.

    Also the little fact that my job REQUIRES a CAR. Unless I can drive my own personal bus everyday transit will not work for me.

    Some people will need to drive. End of story. Nothing wrong with driving. Sorry if your transit or nothing heads explode at the thought of this, but its true. All of the transit options in the world would not change my situitation (except for taking 1,000s of cars off the road and make traffic better for me)

  • Michael M.

    I feel that there are some valid points, and missed opportunities here.

    The people who cite the demolished freeway in SFO – I remind you that there are multiple routes in that city. Getting rid of Highway 99 would make only ONE major North-South highway in Seattle. That would be fine if we were Tacoma or Everett, but we’re not. Losing this second option is an awful proposal for many reasons:

    1: We’ll lose port jobs. Sure, that may appease the environmentalists, but there will be ongoing adverse effects in the Seattle economy, decimating our tax base, and leading towards cuts in environmentally friendly services provided by the City.

    2: We’ll lose regular jobs. People drive. That’s a fact. When people can’t get to work because someone is trying to force them into a bus, they move. Employers move with them. Again, back to the tax base issue in #1.

    3: We’ll force people to be in their cars longer, and cause more pollution. That’s right. More. The traffic snarls that will persist – worse air, water and soil for us all. The increased distance in travel for West Seattle families going to the Seattle Center – same thing. Closing exits to make an addition lane on I-5 will create more clogged surface streets, with more pollution.

    If we had real transportation alternatives (some sort of rail from W. Seattle to Downtown, from Queen Anne/Ballard to Downtown), then no viaduct may work, but I still doubt it. We are not prepared, transit wise, to handle the influx of cars, and the loss of jobs.

    Also, I’ve actually read that the tunnel will allow for minimal disruption to Viaduct travel, that it can be built under the viaduct, and tear-down wouldn’t have to happen until the very end, as opposed to the surface street option. Not four years. That was the original tunnel plan. Of course, I could be wrong.

    Either way, the conversation is moot. As Sen. Mary Margaret-Haugen recently pointed out – if Seattle dumps the tunnel, then the State pulls back the 2.4 billion, and disburses it to other programs around the state (such as Highway 2 and Highway 9 improvements in Snohomish County, multiple highway improvements in Spokane, and ongoing improvements in Pierce and Thurston Counties, among other things). Olympia didn’t like Nickels because he tried to tell them what to do, and McGinn won’t get any further in his cause. There are only 12 house members and 6 senate members that represent Seattle. The rest of the State Legislature is from the rest of the State, and the last thing they are going to do is be bullied around by a liberal Seattle mayor. It hasn’t worked for the last 8 years, it’s not going to work with a more belligerent, less tactful man.

  • Michael M.

    I feel that there are some valid points, and missed opportunities here.

    The people who cite the demolished freeway in SFO – I remind you that there are multiple routes in that city. Getting rid of Highway 99 would make only ONE major North-South highway in Seattle. That would be fine if we were Tacoma or Everett, but we’re not. Losing this second option is an awful proposal for many reasons:

    1: We’ll lose port jobs. Sure, that may appease the environmentalists, but there will be ongoing adverse effects in the Seattle economy, decimating our tax base, and leading towards cuts in environmentally friendly services provided by the City.

    2: We’ll lose regular jobs. People drive. That’s a fact. When people can’t get to work because someone is trying to force them into a bus, they move. Employers move with them. Again, back to the tax base issue in #1.

    3: We’ll force people to be in their cars longer, and cause more pollution. That’s right. More. The traffic snarls that will persist – worse air, water and soil for us all. The increased distance in travel for West Seattle families going to the Seattle Center – same thing. Closing exits to make an addition lane on I-5 will create more clogged surface streets, with more pollution.

    If we had real transportation alternatives (some sort of rail from W. Seattle to Downtown, from Queen Anne/Ballard to Downtown), then no viaduct may work, but I still doubt it. We are not prepared, transit wise, to handle the influx of cars, and the loss of jobs.

    Also, I’ve actually read that the tunnel will allow for minimal disruption to Viaduct travel, that it can be built under the viaduct, and tear-down wouldn’t have to happen until the very end, as opposed to the surface street option. Not four years. That was the original tunnel plan. Of course, I could be wrong.

    Either way, the conversation is moot. As Sen. Mary Margaret-Haugen recently pointed out – if Seattle dumps the tunnel, then the State pulls back the 2.4 billion, and disburses it to other programs around the state (such as Highway 2 and Highway 9 improvements in Snohomish County, multiple highway improvements in Spokane, and ongoing improvements in Pierce and Thurston Counties, among other things). Olympia didn’t like Nickels because he tried to tell them what to do, and McGinn won’t get any further in his cause. There are only 12 house members and 6 senate members that represent Seattle. The rest of the State Legislature is from the rest of the State, and the last thing they are going to do is be bullied around by a liberal Seattle mayor. It hasn’t worked for the last 8 years, it’s not going to work with a more belligerent, less tactful man.

  • Sarah

    To add to Leftisright’s (somewhat whiny) complaints, there’s a major reason why some people must drive: children. Many people must take their kids to daycare or school, and then get to work. You don’t do that split-destination stuff on a bus and you sure as hell don’t do it on a bike. Perhaps Seattle is beginning to look like a no-kids zone, but it isn’t; there are still children to transport.

  • Michael M.

    Oh, and @17 -

    Exactly. I drive to work only because to take the bus would mean an hour and a half journey after picking my daughter up from school (plus a half hour to get there), which would get us home around 7:30 or so, leaving no time for dinner, bath, story time, etc. There are still families in this city, after all.

  • Sarah

    To add to Leftisright’s (somewhat whiny) complaints, there’s a major reason why some people must drive: children. Many people must take their kids to daycare or school, and then get to work. You don’t do that split-destination stuff on a bus and you sure as hell don’t do it on a bike. Perhaps Seattle is beginning to look like a no-kids zone, but it isn’t; there are still children to transport.

  • Michael M.

    Oh, and @17 -

    Exactly. I drive to work only because to take the bus would mean an hour and a half journey after picking my daughter up from school (plus a half hour to get there), which would get us home around 7:30 or so, leaving no time for dinner, bath, story time, etc. There are still families in this city, after all.

  • So Sea Resident

    @17 So the City of Seattle should make its decisions based on the CURRENT individual needs of non-residents?
    Assuming it will take:
    - 2-3 years to start any of these projects
    - Minimum 4 years but probably 5-7 years in reality to complete. During that time no tunnel or viaduct at all, the region totally re-adjusts route and time expectations.

    6-10 years from now, will you still need to drive every single day from Tacoma? You will never move, never change jobs, your employer will never make any adjustment to your duties or schedule, you will never be laid off?

  • So Sea Resident

    @17 So the City of Seattle should make its decisions based on the CURRENT individual needs of non-residents?
    Assuming it will take:
    - 2-3 years to start any of these projects
    - Minimum 4 years but probably 5-7 years in reality to complete. During that time no tunnel or viaduct at all, the region totally re-adjusts route and time expectations.

    6-10 years from now, will you still need to drive every single day from Tacoma? You will never move, never change jobs, your employer will never make any adjustment to your duties or schedule, you will never be laid off?

  • tpn

    Don’t want to cram onto the waterfront boulevard? You can walk, bike on new bike lanes, take public transit on new dedicated bus lanes, drive on improved and reconnected surface streets, or drive on an expanded I-5.

    Anyone think that people can tow a 40 foot shipping container with a bicycle?

  • voter

    leftisright:

    the bored tunnel has no exits downtown, so as a driver from Tacoma can’t use it to go to Russell HQ — assuming you would scoot over from I 5 anyway…. yo’re on I 5 at Southcenter and you would go to 809 and up to 99 to get to downtown, well, that could work today, but with the new bored tunnel it would shoot you out north of downtown.

    So the $4 billion doesn’t benefit you.

    Same with many others. The $4 billion tunnel isn’t a replacement for viaduct since it has no exits downtown…it only seves half the current drivers on the viaduct anyway…so why would we build it?

  • tpn

    Don’t want to cram onto the waterfront boulevard? You can walk, bike on new bike lanes, take public transit on new dedicated bus lanes, drive on improved and reconnected surface streets, or drive on an expanded I-5.

    Anyone think that people can tow a 40 foot shipping container with a bicycle?

  • voter

    leftisright:

    the bored tunnel has no exits downtown, so as a driver from Tacoma can’t use it to go to Russell HQ — assuming you would scoot over from I 5 anyway…. yo’re on I 5 at Southcenter and you would go to 809 and up to 99 to get to downtown, well, that could work today, but with the new bored tunnel it would shoot you out north of downtown.

    So the $4 billion doesn’t benefit you.

    Same with many others. The $4 billion tunnel isn’t a replacement for viaduct since it has no exits downtown…it only seves half the current drivers on the viaduct anyway…so why would we build it?

  • joshuadf

    There are actually quite a few of us Seattle parents that do it on bus, bike, and walking (for example: http://carfreedays.com/ ), though I understand that’s not for everyone.

    However, I would be very surprised if a significant part of viaduct traffic was people picking up their kids at school, or need to drive for work as much as LEFTisRIGHT. There is a lot of potential to get SOVs off the road for those of you who need it.

  • joshuadf

    There are actually quite a few of us Seattle parents that do it on bus, bike, and walking (for example: http://carfreedays.com/ ), though I understand that’s not for everyone.

    However, I would be very surprised if a significant part of viaduct traffic was people picking up their kids at school, or need to drive for work as much as LEFTisRIGHT. There is a lot of potential to get SOVs off the road for those of you who need it.

  • TJ

    “- when the viaduct was closed after the 2001 earthquake, when I-5 was partially shut down for repaving, people adapted.”

    This is definately false. I live in West Seattle, and at the time, worked in Ballard. For the 4 days or so of closure following the Nisqually quake, people did not adapt. People were stuck in traffic for hours trying to get through the city. Perhaps your view from the Stranger office on Capitol Hill was obscured.

  • TJ

    “- when the viaduct was closed after the 2001 earthquake, when I-5 was partially shut down for repaving, people adapted.”

    This is definately false. I live in West Seattle, and at the time, worked in Ballard. For the 4 days or so of closure following the Nisqually quake, people did not adapt. People were stuck in traffic for hours trying to get through the city. Perhaps your view from the Stranger office on Capitol Hill was obscured.

  • jkl

    Right on @23. No one can explain why this isn’t a Potemkin tunnel.

    We could build the tunnel as designed and lose jobs anyway, since the tunnel doesn’t go to downtown. Improvements to I-5 would help both to and through downtown trips.

  • jkl

    Right on @23. No one can explain why this isn’t a Potemkin tunnel.

    We could build the tunnel as designed and lose jobs anyway, since the tunnel doesn’t go to downtown. Improvements to I-5 would help both to and through downtown trips.

  • jkl

    @25,

    The I-5 paving closure is a much better example. Given months or years to adapt, people do.

  • jkl

    @25,

    The I-5 paving closure is a much better example. Given months or years to adapt, people do.

  • jkl

    If you need a car at work, leave your car _at_ work overnight. Or join Zipcar. Or get your employer to provide you with a car.

    Lots of alternatives to driving your own car from Tacoma to Seattle every day (besides just moving to Seattle).

  • jkl

    If you need a car at work, leave your car _at_ work overnight. Or join Zipcar. Or get your employer to provide you with a car.

    Lots of alternatives to driving your own car from Tacoma to Seattle every day (besides just moving to Seattle).

  • TJ

    @27,

    I agree with your point – the Viaduct closure was too short for people to adapt, and there was no warning beforehand, and no stated end-date. The I-5 lane reduction is a better example. Word was out when it would start, when it would end, what to expect, etc. People could plan around it. Employers could plan short-term accomodations. In addition, it was during the summer, when traffic on both I-5 and the Viaduct is less (due to school being out and people on vacation). The Viaduct closure was in the spring.

    My objection was to ECB lumping apples and oranges together and claiming it’s all the same.

  • TJ

    @27,

    I agree with your point – the Viaduct closure was too short for people to adapt, and there was no warning beforehand, and no stated end-date. The I-5 lane reduction is a better example. Word was out when it would start, when it would end, what to expect, etc. People could plan around it. Employers could plan short-term accomodations. In addition, it was during the summer, when traffic on both I-5 and the Viaduct is less (due to school being out and people on vacation). The Viaduct closure was in the spring.

    My objection was to ECB lumping apples and oranges together and claiming it’s all the same.

  • MW

    Anyone try to drive into Vancouver during rush hour???

  • MW

    Anyone try to drive into Vancouver during rush hour???

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    rising gas prices

    The shift from gas cars to hybrid, and all electric will be hastened by rising gas prices.
    Gas taxes will decline even more, and revenue for concrete projects will have to find additional sources. Tire taxes, bicycle tires too, may have to be part of that source, no matter what is built.

    The Nissan/Seattle plug-in station program should not be forgotten in all of these debates.
    If I can put a solar panal on the roof of my house, and recharge a car (or my electric scooter I have right now) I am less likely to make a switch.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    rising gas prices

    The shift from gas cars to hybrid, and all electric will be hastened by rising gas prices.
    Gas taxes will decline even more, and revenue for concrete projects will have to find additional sources. Tire taxes, bicycle tires too, may have to be part of that source, no matter what is built.

    The Nissan/Seattle plug-in station program should not be forgotten in all of these debates.
    If I can put a solar panal on the roof of my house, and recharge a car (or my electric scooter I have right now) I am less likely to make a switch.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    If there were an alternatve today for driving a car that did not have as much time waiting for transfers as it currently takes to just drive I would think about it.

    I think the sharp rise in gas prices (that then briefly dropped) got about as many people to switch as could be. Many more busses will be required to run more routes, more often. I have no idea what you will tax to get that money.

  • http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ Mr. Baker

    If there were an alternatve today for driving a car that did not have as much time waiting for transfers as it currently takes to just drive I would think about it.

    I think the sharp rise in gas prices (that then briefly dropped) got about as many people to switch as could be. Many more busses will be required to run more routes, more often. I have no idea what you will tax to get that money.

  • Axis

    The surface transporation folks like to refer to “increased public transit” as one of the things that will take up the slack. I like the concept, but I’ve yet to see a real, detailed plan that says what that would look like. Seattle has a history of tearing down the old and then taking years – many years – before the new is in place. We’ve barely got light rail in place before we’re talking cutting other transit because of revenue shortages. Someone has to be bold enough to put together a plan that makes sense both financially and practically before many of us buy in.

  • Axis

    The surface transporation folks like to refer to “increased public transit” as one of the things that will take up the slack. I like the concept, but I’ve yet to see a real, detailed plan that says what that would look like. Seattle has a history of tearing down the old and then taking years – many years – before the new is in place. We’ve barely got light rail in place before we’re talking cutting other transit because of revenue shortages. Someone has to be bold enough to put together a plan that makes sense both financially and practically before many of us buy in.

  • Niccolo Machiavelli

    Erica, as regards reporters/editors critiquing reporters/editors, did you catch this story at SLOG posted late yesterday?:

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/09/14/2231564-the-facts-in-claudia-rowes-piece-about-nickels-and-youth-violence

    Christopher Frizzelle, editor of The Stranger, who wrote a nice valentine in SLOG when you left the weekly, is seriously indignant about one of your reports.

  • Niccolo Machiavelli

    Erica, as regards reporters/editors critiquing reporters/editors, did you catch this story at SLOG posted late yesterday?:

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/09/14/2231564-the-facts-in-claudia-rowes-piece-about-nickels-and-youth-violence

    Christopher Frizzelle, editor of The Stranger, who wrote a nice valentine in SLOG when you left the weekly, is seriously indignant about one of your reports.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    @ 28 -

    Leaving my car at work would definately be an option for the days I don’t have meetings on my way in, or on my way home (about 2-3 times a week).

    I would also need to drive home on the days I need to be in other parts of the state for work the next day.

    To everyone with all the wonderful commuting “suggestions” : Some of us will always need to drive. There is no utopian solution where riding mass transit works for everyone. Thanks for the usless tips though.

  • LEFTisRIGHT

    @ 28 -

    Leaving my car at work would definately be an option for the days I don’t have meetings on my way in, or on my way home (about 2-3 times a week).

    I would also need to drive home on the days I need to be in other parts of the state for work the next day.

    To everyone with all the wonderful commuting “suggestions” : Some of us will always need to drive. There is no utopian solution where riding mass transit works for everyone. Thanks for the usless tips though.

  • john mocha

    A few things seem to have been lost in the discussion:

    1. What about the additional pollution caused by diverting all the vehicles from a high speed nonstop solution – the tunnel – to stop and go traffic in the city. Seems like an environmental nightmare.

    2. In the quake in San Francisco what collapsed was the I880 viaduct. I don’t recall any issues with the BART Tunnels.

    3. While it would be nice to divert folks to other transit means and I love having light rail in Rainier Valley, it doesn’t appear to have caused many folks to switch modes of travel. As for buses, well take care of crime and gangs first.

    4. On a light hearted note, how about Segways. Wasn’t that Jan Drago’s solution to our woes?

  • john mocha

    A few things seem to have been lost in the discussion:

    1. What about the additional pollution caused by diverting all the vehicles from a high speed nonstop solution – the tunnel – to stop and go traffic in the city. Seems like an environmental nightmare.

    2. In the quake in San Francisco what collapsed was the I880 viaduct. I don’t recall any issues with the BART Tunnels.

    3. While it would be nice to divert folks to other transit means and I love having light rail in Rainier Valley, it doesn’t appear to have caused many folks to switch modes of travel. As for buses, well take care of crime and gangs first.

    4. On a light hearted note, how about Segways. Wasn’t that Jan Drago’s solution to our woes?

  • http://gomezticator.livejournal.com/ Gomez

    What you need are concrete details of how your stated claims would work… which remain lacking amidst the given platitudes. If the surface/transit supporters can only offer platitudes, then they’re only going to get platitudes in response.

  • http://gomezticator.livejournal.com Gomez

    What you need are concrete details of how your stated claims would work… which remain lacking amidst the given platitudes. If the surface/transit supporters can only offer platitudes, then they’re only going to get platitudes in response.

  • Doug bikes too (but also drive

    The biblical tower of babel can’t hold a candle to Seattle’s transportation conversation. While waiting for a cure to the Ballard Bridge bicycle death march of yesterday’s discourse, I hope somebody takes shears to the bramble overtaking the right curve on the southbound land leaving the bridge towards Fisherman’s Terminal, thus saving a few blood wounds before a southbound nirvana is found. And, I hope, more skeptically, a devoted greenie will actually read the numbers on the New England greenie viaduct traffic study of a few years back so as to understand 99/Viaduct southbound is flooded south of 85th by single occupant drivers from Greenwood, Green Lake, Phinney, Wallingford, Fremont, etc. and such other bastions of transportation propriety. A few shears here, a few facts there…but who am I do interrupt such delicious chaos?

  • Doug bikes too (but also drives)

    The biblical tower of babel can’t hold a candle to Seattle’s transportation conversation. While waiting for a cure to the Ballard Bridge bicycle death march of yesterday’s discourse, I hope somebody takes shears to the bramble overtaking the right curve on the southbound land leaving the bridge towards Fisherman’s Terminal, thus saving a few blood wounds before a southbound nirvana is found. And, I hope, more skeptically, a devoted greenie will actually read the numbers on the New England greenie viaduct traffic study of a few years back so as to understand 99/Viaduct southbound is flooded south of 85th by single occupant drivers from Greenwood, Green Lake, Phinney, Wallingford, Fremont, etc. and such other bastions of transportation propriety. A few shears here, a few facts there…but who am I do interrupt such delicious chaos?

  • raymond

    I like that McGinn wants to add a lane to I-5, while removing left hand exits (ie Seneca). Excuse me, but isn’t that 2 of the things he thinks are bad about the tunnel? We need to eliminate lanes from I-5, not add them! Traffic from I-5 will be absorbed by downtown streets. I-5 should be made into a 2-lane surface street boulevard through downtown, with opportunities to interact with the surface street grid at every intersection. Not that I’m saying it should have traffic lights, but maybe speed bumps, those irritating little zig-zags, or other alternative traffic calming measures. Think Pike Place Market, where cars and pedestrians share the road but pedestrians are king. I want a boulevard with bike lanes and pedestrian/skate lanes. This will force most people out of their cars. Others will eventually give up and move. The net impact on climate change will be positive. Finallya, I would get rid of the nefarious one-way streets downtown, as they only lure and enable cars.

  • raymond

    I like that McGinn wants to add a lane to I-5, while removing left hand exits (ie Seneca). Excuse me, but isn’t that 2 of the things he thinks are bad about the tunnel? We need to eliminate lanes from I-5, not add them! Traffic from I-5 will be absorbed by downtown streets. I-5 should be made into a 2-lane surface street boulevard through downtown, with opportunities to interact with the surface street grid at every intersection. Not that I’m saying it should have traffic lights, but maybe speed bumps, those irritating little zig-zags, or other alternative traffic calming measures. Think Pike Place Market, where cars and pedestrians share the road but pedestrians are king. I want a boulevard with bike lanes and pedestrian/skate lanes. This will force most people out of their cars. Others will eventually give up and move. The net impact on climate change will be positive. Finallya, I would get rid of the nefarious one-way streets downtown, as they only lure and enable cars.

  • Vlad O.

    Erica: I have my own issues with your I comments on Mike Lindblom’s article, which is a generally well researched and written piece. In particular, your statement that “a group of stakeholders who had spent months examining the viaduct alternatives endorsed the surface/transit option”. That is a falsehood that was begun by Mike McGinn and perpetuated by uninformed media.

    I was one of the 30 stakeholders in question, attended every single meeting of the year long process, and I can say that at no time was there any endorsement of the surface/transit option. In fact, it was the least supported option with maybe 6, or 20% of the stakeholders who thought it was workable (most of them for ideological reasons). We looked at it very closely and with an open mind, but it proved to be unworkable. On the other hand, there was an almost complete consensus that the tunnel + transit option was workable, and most importantly acceptable to a broad range of interests.

    Wishful thinking does not make a transportation plan work. I fear that you let yourself get a little dreamy with your comments about the surface option.

  • Vlad O.

    Erica: I have my own issues with your I comments on Mike Lindblom’s article, which is a generally well researched and written piece. In particular, your statement that “a group of stakeholders who had spent months examining the viaduct alternatives endorsed the surface/transit option”. That is a falsehood that was begun by Mike McGinn and perpetuated by uninformed media.

    I was one of the 30 stakeholders in question, attended every single meeting of the year long process, and I can say that at no time was there any endorsement of the surface/transit option. In fact, it was the least supported option with maybe 6, or 20% of the stakeholders who thought it was workable (most of them for ideological reasons). We looked at it very closely and with an open mind, but it proved to be unworkable. On the other hand, there was an almost complete consensus that the tunnel + transit option was workable, and most importantly acceptable to a broad range of interests.

    Wishful thinking does not make a transportation plan work. I fear that you let yourself get a little dreamy with your comments about the surface option.

  • ivan

    Hallenback presents statistics derived from research and ECB presents wishful thinking and religious dogma. If Erica is a “wonk,” Greg Nickels is anorexic.

    Chris Stefan @ 2:

    Again with the lies about the Embarcadero? The Embarcadero was a SPUR. The Alaskan Way Viaduct is a THROUGH HIGHWAY.